Super Scifi Medical Tech VS Gravity Centrifuges For Space

[Spacescifi]

 

So we all know microgravity is bad and is more bad the longer we have to endure it.

Initially you will 'liquid' (I know KSP censors biological elimination of fluids) a lot, since your body has smart auto mode and thinks it has WAAY too much fluid since it is in places it normally is'nt now. Your heart will eventually become more ball shaped, your vision will blur due to increased blood pressure, blood will thin to compensate, bone mass is lost...etc more bad stuff.

Even a few days in space can present temporary health problems, as Heidemarie Stefanyshyn-Piper discovered after spending two weeks in space during STS-115 in 2006. During a press conference after the landing, Piper collapsed, as she was not quite readjusted to gravity.

 

So I was thinking, why not just use advanced medical repair technology? If it is the future why not?

The human body does not repair super fast because it does not have the reseorces to do so without damaging other organs (oxygen starvation is a factor).

 

Stargate had a total fantasy sarcophagus that could repair just about any injury. 

While less realistic right now than a centrifuge, I see no reason why we could not build machines in the future that can repair humanoid bodies back to 1g standard by accelerating the body's inherent healing factor somehow while also accepting the burden that the body would otherwise take a hit for.

What do you think?

Spoiler

A fan theory has it that Stargate sarcophagi are actually time reversal tech, which explains how people won't age after they keep using them. Memories would and should be erased upon time reversal to a younger self...but that is sent inside a computer buffer of sorts that reinserts memorinto the younger restored self.

 

Still would make for fascinating fiction without memory restore...essentially restoring crew to pre launch memories and bodies.

What happens in space...stays in space. Unless the computer recorded it.

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Spacescifi

[Spaceman.Spiff]

I think it’s a bit implausible. 
There have been studies on muscle and bone mass loss, and they found that myostatin blockers (I thinks that’s what it was), could reduce bone density and muscle mass losses. 
 

[Gargamel]

I'm not sure what you're asking here.   Are you suggesting taking a human body that is already duress, and spinning it under higher G loads, therefore putting more stress on the body?

Orthostatic Hypotension is serious concern at just one g for even a slightly compromised circulatory system, and now we want to spin them around and increase the G loads?

Yes, zero G has some debilitating effects on the human body over the long term, but for some conditions it would be a huge benefit for healing.   Cardiac compromise could possibly benefit greatly from the reduced workload as the muscle heals up.     Buuuut..... That implies we would have to launch a person into orbit immediately after treatment or even during the onset of symptoms, and neither is a practical solution with any hope of patient survival.    It would require the equivalent of a full bypass setup (imagine the theatrical scene of a room full of life support, like that, but more fragile), so perhaps in some far advanced sci-fi story, some short term stasis pod that completely takes over bodily functions could be used to reach orbit.   But if that was the case where full bypass was trivial and routine, it would be a lot simpler to just employ that on earth and doctors could fix the damage with a much smaller threat of running out of time. 

If different levels of G loads had much therapeutic use, we'd see it in wider use today.   We have inversion tables for muscular/skeletal treatments, but you can only hang upside down for so long before passing out.   Tilt tables exist to help certain patients breathe, sort of like a non confining iron lung.   There are many other positional therapies that involve positioning  the patient to help speed recovery (ie, sitting up after being flat in bed for days), but all of them are done without inducing higher G loads. 

There are some intriguing scenarios that involve low G healing regimes, but getting to the low G state would most likely kill a patient on the way up. 

[Spacescifi]

27 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

I'm not sure what you're asking here.   Are you suggesting taking a human body that is already duress, and spinning it under higher G loads, therefore putting more stress on the body?

Orthostatic Hypotension is serious concern at just one g for even a slightly compromised circulatory system, and now we want to spin them around and increase the G loads?

Yes, zero G has some debilitating effects on the human body over the long term, but for some conditions it would be a huge benefit for healing.   Cardiac compromise could possibly benefit greatly from the reduced workload as the muscle heals up.     Buuuut..... That implies we would have to launch a person into orbit immediately after treatment or even during the onset of symptoms, and neither is a practical solution with any hope of patient survival.    It would require the equivalent of a full bypass setup (imagine the theatrical scene of a room full of life support, like that, but more fragile), so perhaps in some far advanced sci-fi story, some short term stasis pod that completely takes over bodily functions could be used to reach orbit.   But if that was the case where full bypass was trivial and routine, it would be a lot simpler to just employ that on earth and doctors could fix the damage with a much smaller threat of running out of time. 

If different levels of G loads had much therapeutic use, we'd see it in wider use today.   We have inversion tables for muscular/skeletal treatments, but you can only hang upside down for so long before passing out.   Tilt tables exist to help certain patients breathe, sort of like a non confining iron lung.   There are many other positional therapies that involve positioning  the patient to help speed recovery (ie, sitting up after being flat in bed for days), but all of them are done without inducing higher G loads. 

There are some intriguing scenarios that involve low G healing regimes, but getting to the low G state would most likely kill a patient on the way up. 

 

Interesting thoughts.

I was referring to the popular 1g centrifuges, which either require 100 meters of distance on a cable or beam, or a large spaceship to spin.

To have 1g without disorientation due to the corolis effect.

[Gargamel]

7 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

To have 1g without disorientation due to the corolis effect.

It's been a bit since I've watched this, but I believe Scott figured out that to create one g by spinning up an asteroid, and not have Coriolis effects on people would require something dozens of km's long.   Making a centrifuge for medical purposes is completely impractical.   By the time you built one, you would have a fully functioning space port, with a 1000 bed Level I trauma center in the outer edge. 

 

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, Gargamel said:

It's been a bit since I've watched this, but I believe Scott figured out that to create one g by spinning up an asteroid, and not have Coriolis effects on people would require something dozens of km's long.   Making a centrifuge for medical purposes is completely impractical.   By the time you built one, you would have a fully functioning space port, with a 1000 bed Level I trauma center in the outer edge. 

 

 

I was way off when I said 100 meters.

At least a 1000 meters required.

https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/281/what-would-the-size-and-rotation-of-a-station-need-to-be-to-produce-1g-gravity-f

[Gargamel]

43 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

At least a 1000 meters required.

And then when you have all the support facilities added, you end up requiring even more support facilities for those facilities, and you end up with a full station. 

[kerbiloid]

The mentioned earlier ESA Martian expedition project includes a medical centrifuge (inside the 6 m wide ship hull) for periodical training during the flight.

So the Roscosmos plans about the future space station told (but inside 4 m).

The NASA centrifuge research module has been cancelled, the Russian one is not ready, so the researches about therapeutical effect of the medical cetrifuge yet haven't been performed.

Goa'ulds suxx, true professionals do that by magic.
(A homework: what should a healing spell actually do? Should it repair artificial traumas like surgery? Should it neutralize artificial poisoning with aspirin or paracetamol?)

Humans already have survived a ~1.5 y long flights. With medicines and therapeutical centrifuges can probably do this for 2..3 years, too, why not.
But flights longer than 2..3 years don't make sense due to the crew disqualification as well.
A geologist who haven't seen a stone for ten years, a doctor who didn't have a real practice for five years, a pilot of spaceship simulator, waiting his chance to do a landing for six years....
And the ship systems need more repairs after a long flight.

So:
The flight itself between the two instant gravities, should not last longer than several months.
The aborted flight should last not longer than 2..3 years to the closest instant gravity.
A Martian flight: 8 months between two instant gravities (Earth and Martian landing). If the landing is cancelled, <3 years.

Farther flights need faster ships.

Beyond the Mars there is no appropriate instant gravity to land, so either an artificial one is required, or a very fast ship.
So, any planet beyond 1 year flight is inappropriate without artificial gravity. Wait for faster ships.

Any planet beyond Mars requires a station or a ship with instant artificial gravity, because any geological expedition will last for at least a year, and they need gravity all this time.

Very long expeditions like interstellar ones should be rare and unique unless you have a hyperjump, but actually they are never required, unless you have found the aliens.
All we know about the Solar System is known without crewed flights (well, Apollos, but they could be easily replaced with robots) and with primitive technologies.

Edited January 10, 2021 by kerbiloid

[KerikBalm]

4 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

, I see no reason why we could not build machines in the future that can repair humanoid bodies back to 1g standard by accelerating the body's inherent healing factor somehow while also accepting the burden that the body would otherwise take a hit for.

What do you think?

  Reveal hidden contents

A fan theory has it that Stargate sarcophagi are actually time reversal tech, which explains how people won't age after they keep using them. Memories would and should be erased upon time reversal to a younger self...but that is sent inside a computer buffer of sorts that reinserts memorinto the younger restored self.

 

Still would make for fascinating fiction without memory restore...essentially restoring crew to pre launch memories and bodies.

What happens in space...stays in space. Unless the computer recorded it.

 

 

 

I think that this belongs in the lounge 

Your proposal is really vague, there is no science to evaluate in it.

"A machine that fixes your body, like stargate" really seems like a lounge topic to me

[Spacescifi]

36 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

The mentioned earlier ESA Martian expedition project includes a medical centrifuge (inside the 6 m wide ship hull) for periodical training during the flight.

So the Roscosmos plans about the future space station told (but inside 4 m).

The NASA centrifuge research module has been cancelled, the Russian one is not ready, so the researches about therapeutical effect of the medical cetrifuge yet haven't been performed.

Goa'ulds suxx, true professionals do that by magic.
(A homework: what should a healing spell actually do? Should it repair artificial traumas like surgery? Should it neutralize artificial poisoning with aspirin or paracetamol?)

Humans already have survived a ~1.5 y long flights. With medicines and therapeutical centrifuges can probably do this for 2..3 years, too, why not.
But flights longer than 2..3 years don't make sense due to the crew disqualification as well.
A geologist who haven't seen a stone for ten years, a doctor who didn't have a real practice for five years, a pilot of spaceship simulator, waiting his chance to do a landing for six years....
And the ship systems need more repairs after a long flight.

So:
The flight itself between the two instant gravities, should not last longer than several months.
The aborted flight should last not longer than 2..3 years to the closest instant gravity.
A Martian flight: 8 months between two instant gravities (Earth and Martian landing). If the landing is cancelled, <3 years.

Farther flights need faster ships.

Beyond the Mars there is no appropriate instant gravity to land, so either an artificial one is required, or a very fast ship.
So, any planet beyond 1 year flight is inappropriate without artificial gravity. Wait for faster ships.

Any planet beyond Mars requires a station or a ship with instant artificial gravity, because any geological expedition will last for at least a year, and they need gravity all this time.

Very long expeditions like interstellar ones should be rare and unique unless you have a hyperjump, but actually they are never required, unless you have found the aliens.
All we know about the Solar System is known without crewed flights (well, Apollos, but they could be easily replaced with robots) and with primitive technologies.

 

Excellent information.

Faster ships with significant cargo will be a no go forever until we find a way to overcome or cheat the rocket tyranny of propellant mass.

Even antimatter won't help much since unless you plan on burning through plenty of it and making round trips back to AM producing industrial bases to refuel you can forget it.

Since there are only a few places where making that stuff in quantity is viable according to research (Saturn orbit around rings) and probably a few more besides Earth.

To be honest, even with hyperjump, without some form of medical miracle like Goauld or similar or a massive centrifuge, our space heroes are going to be a LOT like the lady astronaut in the video when they get out after landing on a world.

In other words, no quick heroic rescue missions on planets like on scifi. They would only be beaten badly.

There are a limited number of options for a sustained manned presence across space and time.

And it is very ironic that if we are able to manipulate both, the more we would be able to live wherever.

Currently I don't think we can manipulate either, but it is safe to say that if you can manipulate time at all, space travel can and will start to open up for you. And if you can manipulate space so as to shorten distances, that reduces space travel time so....

If we could do time forwarding inflight like in KSP, then you would need nothing else, although you will still need a centrifuge on Mars if you want 1g, there is no getting around that.

 

Elon seems not to worry. Maybe he made a deal with the Goauld?

Sure the Goauld were proper idiots...but their tech was good enough that it kind of compensated for a long time.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Spacescifi

[YNM]

11 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

why not just use advanced medical repair technology?

What are you imagining, here ? Something that doesn't require surgeons, close inspection and continuous feedback all handled by humans ?

If it's what's in the spoiler then the answer is likely closer to "no".

What you're describing with the video is a lot closer to motion sickness and G-tolerance. You can't train them at all. But they'll go away once you have adjusted to it.

 

That being said, we've at least been able to speed up ageing through genetic modification. Slowing down is much harder, although it's not really that it's much harder - it's just that, it turns out, your systems do work harder and better in rougher conditions... and that's usually not comfortable for anyone. There's a genetic-modification way, but it's only possible on the scale of tissues so far, not a whole organism.

Spoiler

Excerpt from the video's description :

Quote

What causes ageing? According to Professor David Sinclair, it is a loss of information in our epigenome, the system of proteins like histones and chemical markers like methylation that turn on and off genes. Epigenetics allow different cell types to perform their specific functions - they are what differentiate a brain cell from a skin cell. Our DNA is constantly getting broken, by cosmic rays, UV radiation, free radicals, x-rays and regular cell division etc. When our cells repair that damage, the epigenome is not perfectly reset. And hence over time, noise accumulates in our epigenome. Our cells no longer perform their functions well.

To counter this decline, we can activate the body's own defenses against ageing by stressing the body. Eat less, eat less protein, engage in intense exercise, experience uncomfortable cold. When the body senses existential threats it triggers longevity genes, which attempt to maintain the body to ensure its survival until good times return. This may be the evolutionary legacy of early bacteria, which established these two modes of living (repair and protect vs grow and reproduce). Scientists are uncovering ways to mimic stresses on the body without the discomfort of fasting. Molecules like NMN also trigger sirtuins to monitor and repair the epigenome. This may slow ageing.

Reversing ageing requires an epigenetic reset, which may be possible using Yamanaka factors. These four factors can revert an adult cell into a pluripotent stem cell. Prof. Sinclair used three of the four factors to reverse ageing in the retinal cells of old mice. He found they could see again after the treatment.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by YNM