The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.11.x - 1.12.x

[Jacke]

2 minutes ago, fourfa said:

Stock EVA propellant has always been infinite and unlimited, where are we getting that it's likely to be patched?  I mean, outside of Caveman I use the EVA Propellant mod but for Caveman all exploits are go IMHO

The way things changed with 1.11, it was obvious that it was intended to reverse that with the new system and like giving Kerbals mass, it was intended that EVA propellant be Monoprop in the jet pack and to have a proper conversion.  Just like ladder drives have finally been patched, truly wrong things in the game are slowly being fixed.

[JAFO]

On 3/13/2021 at 8:10 AM, paul_c said:

Completed NCD, after over a month!

Full thread here:

 

Congratulations, @paul_c! A magnificent effort indeed!

My apologies for the long delay in responding. Exams and starting a new job this past week have eaten into my online time more than I'd like.

However...

It is my great pleasure and honour to bestow upon you not only the Nano-Crystalline Diamond Badge, but also declare you as a new inductee into the Order of the Trilobite, reserved for the truly legendary Cavemen who succeed in pushing the limits of Caveman tech to the extreme!

Your badges will be in your inbox shortly,  and your name is being carved in new entries on the cave wall.

Look at that Caveman go!

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by JAFO

[Blaarkies]

My NCD attempt got completely derailed while i was busy being distracted by a stupid question:
- How many antennae and relays do i need to visit Minmus without much fear of losing connection?

I used it an excuse to learn more web development using Angular, so I made a website that imitates the KSP map view, lets you drag things around until you feel the alignment is the situation you have in game, and then you can check which spacecraft have comms connections.
 

Testing this with the HG-5 (strongest caveman radio) shows you need 10 000 onboard to reach about half-way to Duna at closest approach...its not even an option in caveman 
Anyway, have at it, let me know if you pick up weird things. Maybe now i can look at doing Minmus in my NCD run...

[Sirad]

Is there a special Bagde if you land Jeb on Duna and return him savely to Kerbin in Caveman Mode ?

And as an additional question. Is it allowed to use this:

https://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/

and, if so, the journey consists of more than 180 screenshots to document it... I think, i shall rather not post them here....

 

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Sirad

[JAFO]

On 4/27/2021 at 9:45 PM, Blaarkies said:

Testing this with the HG-5 (strongest caveman radio) shows you need 10 000 onboard to reach about half-way to Duna at closest approach...

Hmm.. I'm not surprised, but nice to have my suspicions confirmed. Very cool tool!

[JAFO]

EDIT: @SiradI see from the thread you created on your "Planning for Caveman Duna trip", that you apparently used MechJeb in your attempt. I'm very sorry to inform you that MJ and/or KER, or any other mods that can provide extra information, or alter gameplay in any way, are NOT permitted (see the OP). So unfortunately, your entry would be disqualified, and no badge(s) can be awarded.

Please do feel free to re-attempt the challenge with all rule requirements met. See the OP for all rules and other requirements.

 

On 4/28/2021 at 8:59 PM, Sirad said:

Is there a special Bagde if you land Jeb on Duna and return him savely to Kerbin in Caveman Mode ?

Yes. That would earn you an Order of the Trilobite badge (in addition to whichever badge applies to the difficulty level you used), and get your name added to the List of Legendary Cavemen & Cavewomen.

 

On 4/28/2021 at 8:59 PM, Sirad said:

And as an additional question. Is it allowed to use this:

https://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/

Yes, that's permitted. After all, it's what @paul_c used to calculate the transfer window for his successful Nano-diamond attempt.

 

On 4/28/2021 at 8:59 PM, Sirad said:

if so, the journey consists of more than 180 screenshots to document it... I think, i shall rather not post them here....

I would recommend you create an album on imgur.com to host them, and post the link to it here. Imgur lets you add a caption for each image, and I highly recommend you make use of it to discuss what's going on in each shot. See some of the other Imgur albums of challenge attempts for examples.

Also, be sure your images include the additional screenshots detailed in the OP under the heading "The minimum amount of proof needed for a challenge entry."

Edited May 2, 2021 by JAFO

[Sirad]

1 hour ago, JAFO said:

EDIT: @SiradI see from the thread you created on your "Planning for Caveman Duna trip", that you apparently used MechJeb in your attempt. I'm very sorry to inform you that MJ and/or KER, or any other mods that can provide extra information, or alter gameplay in any way, are NOT permitted (see the OP). So unfortunately, your entry would be disqualified, and no badge(s) can be awarded.

Yes, that's permitted. After all, it's what @paul_c used to calculate the transfer window for his successful Nano-diamond attempt.

 

I would recommend you create an album on imgur.com to host them, and post the link to it here. Imgur lets you add a caption for each image, and I highly recommend you make use of it to discuss what's going on in each shot. See some of the other Imgur albums of challenge attempts for examples.

Also, be sure your images include the additional screenshots detailed in the OP under the heading "The minimum amount of proof needed for a challenge entry."

The Real Trip to Duna was without Mechjeb, of course. Just checking if its possible as i've got planned.

Well im having difficulty creating an account on imgur, they wont accept my phone number.

Im creating another Thread in missions and link it here.

 

Possibly that will do.

'Yes, that's permitted. After all, it's what @paul_c used to calculate the transfer window for his successful Nano-diamond attempt.'

Great to hear. So everything is fine.

It will Take some time to comment all Pics...

 

 

 

 

[JAFO]

1 minute ago, Sirad said:

The Real Trip to Duna was without Mechjeb, of course. Just checking if its possible as i've got planned.

That's great news! I really hate having to disqualify an attempt.

Looking forward to seeing your entry.

[Sirad]

2 hours ago, JAFO said:

Looking forward to seeing your entry.

Here it comes. Im not so good at writing in englis so it has text for any picture but not so much...

 

[paul_c]

On 5/2/2021 at 11:57 AM, Sirad said:

 

'Yes, that's permitted. After all, it's what @paul_c used to calculate the transfer window for his successful Nano-diamond attempt.'

 

I used a separate website: https://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/ to find the best launch window (time/date) and https://ksp.olex.biz/ to help visualise the angles, but once the values were 'looked up' I manually made a note of them, wound the clock forwards using TimeWarp then estimated the ejection angle to burn at, sometimes using a protractor pressed against the monitor, caveman style. KSP program remained bog standard for this.

[paul_c]

On 4/27/2021 at 12:45 PM, Blaarkies said:

My NCD attempt got completely derailed while i was busy being distracted by a stupid question:
- How many antennae and relays do i need to visit Minmus without much fear of losing connection?

I used it an excuse to learn more web development using Angular, so I made a website that imitates the KSP map view, lets you drag things around until you feel the alignment is the situation you have in game, and then you can check which spacecraft have comms connections.
 

Testing this with the HG-5 (strongest caveman radio) shows you need 10 000 onboard to reach about half-way to Duna at closest approach...its not even an option in caveman 
Anyway, have at it, let me know if you pick up weird things. Maybe now i can look at doing Minmus in my NCD run...

When I did it, I built 2x modules with antennas (I think 8 each - they weigh quite a lot, 70kg?) but in the end, the extra antenna power wasn't needed - it only extended comms to a little further out of Kerbin's SOI and I was always planning to come back to surface of Kerbin anyway, to achieve max science points. It was a failsafe/backup which was of little value, and not needed. Fortunately, I had attached them to a fuel tank so I was able to make use of the fuel in the modules anyway, just not as much as a fuel-only module.

Its worth being familiar with the power/transmission requirements to fly to Minmus (and relay comms from it) though.

[Sirad]

1 hour ago, paul_c said:

I used a separate website: https://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/ to find the best launch window (time/date)

This is exactly what i used.

I actually created a fire control solution to land a kerbal on Tylo and return him safely to Kerbin in caveman mode.

Anyone ever tried to do this on Eve ? I have to calc if its possible :-)

[paul_c]

The screenshots have MechJob in them too. If you didn't use any of its extra features, it could have been uninstalled for the challenge.

[Sirad]

31 minutes ago, paul_c said:

The screenshots have MechJob in them too. If you didn't use any of its extra features, it could have been uninstalled for the challenge.

To what Post are you refering to ?

 

 

[JAFO]

9 hours ago, paul_c said:

The screenshots have MechJob in them too.

Umm.. I think you're looking at a different "proof of concept" thread that was posted about a week ago.

This is the Caveman Challenge attempt thread:

No sign of MJ in this one!

[JAFO]

10 hours ago, Sirad said:

Anyone ever tried to do this on Eve ? I have to calc if its possible :-)

Not on Eve itself. Cavemen have landed on Gilly, but that's all. A successful return from the surface of Eve would be VERY difficult to accomplish.

 

On 5/2/2021 at 11:23 PM, Sirad said:

Congratulations, @Sirad! I'm pretty sure you are the very first Normal difficulty level Caveman to even attempt an interplanetary mission, let alone land a Kerbal on and return from Duna. The fact that you succeeded certainly qualifies you for an Order of the Trilobite award.

So it is my very great pleasure to confirm your (second) Apatite Badge, and also induct you into the Order of the Trilobite.

Your badges will be in your inbox shortly, and your name is being carved into the cave wall.

 

Again, well done! A very impressive mission.

[Sirad]

2 hours ago, JAFO said:

Not on Eve itself. Cavemen have landed on Gilly, but that's all. A successful return from the surface of Eve would be VERY difficult to accomplish.

 

Congratulations, @Sirad! I'm pretty sure you are the very first Normal difficulty level Caveman to even attempt an interplanetary mission, let alone land a Kerbal on and return from Duna. The fact that you succeeded certainly qualifies you for an Order of the Trilobite award.

So it is my very great pleasure to confirm your (second) Apatite Badge, and also induct you into the Order of the Trilobite.

Your badges will be in your inbox shortly, and your name is being carved into the cave wall.

 

Again, well done! A very impressive mission.

Thanks a Lot! So i got not only rewarded once, i got rewarded twice!

I got rewarded by this new beautiful Badge and i got rewarded in gaining lots of Experience.

Thanks a lot again! The next Step for me is to land Jeb on Tylo and return him safely to Kerbin. Im actually building the needed Mothership for it.
Is it ok to continue the actual Game where i've landed him on Duna ?

 

[JAFO]

10 minutes ago, Sirad said:

The next Step for me is to land Jeb on Tylo and return him safely to Kerbin. Im actually building the needed Mothership for it.
Is it ok to continue the actual Game where i've landed him on Duna ?

Yes, that would be fine.. but be aware you've maxed out your badges for this particular run. The most I could do would be to update your entry on the List of Legendary Cavemen & Cavewomen to include the additional achievement. Have you considered doing it on a difficulty level that you haven't tried yet?

Speaking of which, I somehow thought your old 1.45 award was also Apatite, but I see it was actually Topaz. I'll make up a combo Topaz/Apatite badge for you.

[WarSprite]

Hey folks,

Just a quick one to say hello, and indicate I'm starting a Caveman Challenge... and documenting this one.

Brand new to the forums, and one to two months into the game. After a month I had finished a Science Mode game, and was looking for something with a bit of fun, when I ran into the Caveman Challenge on a search result. 

Boy is it fun working with the part constraints!

More to follow as I document my Hard difficulty Caveman :-)

 

[JAFO]

7 hours ago, WarSprite said:

Hey folks,

Just a quick one to say hello, and indicate I'm starting a Caveman Challenge... and documenting this one.

Brand new to the forums, and one to two months into the game. After a month I had finished a Science Mode game, and was looking for something with a bit of fun, when I ran into the Caveman Challenge on a search result. 

Boy is it fun working with the part constraints!

More to follow as I document my Hard difficulty Caveman :-)

 

G'day, @WarSprite! Welcome to KSP, to the forums, and to the Caveman Challenge!

We look forward to seeing how you go..

[WarSprite]

4 minutes ago, JAFO said:

G'day, @WarSprite! Welcome to KSP, to the forums, and to the Caveman Challenge!

We look forward to seeing how you go..

Hi JAFO, thanks for the welcome.

I've got some aspirational sub-goals for my attempt.

1. Don't farm KSC for science
2. Don't collect science from Kerbin
3. Don't take contracts

They're kind of flexible if needs be, since it cuts me off from some early sources, but they'll keep me focussed on making flights 

Here's my settings as a start...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1H6EUBHtsvic4-0evT0diQbZKFaqJSsjp/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AKZl1QP22Y_BbSUATcJIjrAiSlp7b1Fl/view?usp=sharing

Cheers!

[paul_c]

1 hour ago, WarSprite said:

 

1. Don't farm KSC for science
2. Don't collect science from Kerbin
3. Don't take contracts

 

That's the 3 things you need to do to get anywhere in Caveman Challenge! I'm scratching my head how you could progress without at least some of those, because you will need a few tech tree squares (and some money) before you have a hope of building a spaceship which can get to Mun or beyond.

[WarSprite]

First actual flight details in this post.

I'm roughly following the story line contracts, but not precisely. And of course, not actually taking the contracts 

 

@paul_c  - I've had a quick play, and think it is do-able, after all I'm only looking at "Hard" mode not NCD, but time will tell.

 

Flight #01 - Launching my first vessel - just a quick scoot off the ground, and some science.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eGNkqR6DZJCpja5JUKdbpnO-SCG6cqo8/view?usp=sharing

That's enough to unlock Basic Rocketry, and Engineering 101

 

Flight #02 - Science flying high, grabbing the temperature with my new thermometer.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NBDy43Z_ADe49ab-ZTTe4NKg5OipygIR/view?usp=sharing

That pushes me to 16.0 science, so I unlock Survivability and the barometer.

 

Flights #03 and #04 - Filling in the pressure scan experiment, flying low, then flying high

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MNqDLjS36ROQWjwIatRWHHhFjFq8D4Lv/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-I_WnpR4Xuk4Zhj6OPZsnF-AP3GANSSP/view?usp=sharing

 

Flight #05 - Grab a full set of experiments from low space - toasty on the way up with that Hammer on full thrust!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-j0UCNKyNQvI3Lx5xYEYRzCeXuBX3WjD/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cP3psWW70WIfN02UDYxMPf_9TuMIWp-v/view?usp=sharing

 

Flight #06 - And the same again for high space - first time I've had to use a staged rocket; sadly it's also the first time I didn't bring the engine home 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y1vKMrZIO2NhXMw7n1TS4fYlVemAA1ft/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1H_9DyL7kpjFTM8XmshOpk8BaY88G5Bjv/view?usp=sharing

 

I'm up to 79 science, but out of things that I can reach in space. Time to research Basic Science for the Science Jr and all the other goodies in that node.

As you can tell, I'm not looking to minimise the number of flights at all. That's too much on top of the sub-goals I've already set myself!

That's it for now, more to come next time 

 

[JAFO]

10 hours ago, WarSprite said:

Hi JAFO, thanks for the welcome.

I've got some aspirational sub-goals for my attempt.

1. Don't farm KSC for science
2. Don't collect science from Kerbin
3. Don't take contracts

They're kind of flexible if needs be, since it cuts me off from some early sources, but they'll keep me focussed on making flights 

 

Hmm.. good thing they're "flexible" goals.. because I suspect that, especially since you're making an attempt at Topaz, that you're gonna run smack into a science wall before too long. And rubber walls hurt less than solid ones. 

 

8 hours ago, WarSprite said:

I'm up to 79 science, but out of things that I can reach in space.

 

Aaannnnddd.....

There's the first of those walls I was talking about!

Good luck, but I think you're about to learn just how flexible you'll need to be...

Edited May 23, 2021 by JAFO
Brain-fart

[WarSprite]

5 hours ago, JAFO said:

Aaannnnddd.....

There's the first of those walls I was talking about!

Good luck, but I think you're about to learn just how flexible you'll need to be...

Thanks JAFO   But I'm not stuck yet... as I commented, I just had to spend a bit for Basic Science and all the goodies in that node. I still can't reach other situations yet, but I can do more science in the four situations that I can reach.

I should be clear... I'm OK with Kerbin atmosphere / space, it's just farming the Kerbin biomes that I'm trying to avoid.

So, armed with Basic Science I set out to grab Science Jr in all four situations.

 

Flight #07 and #08 - Four Science Jr flying low and flying high - easy flights and easy recovery.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-ND8_bf4EOMTkuQLzhI6rq1nAWuWOen3/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jGVNEBEi2yHWbD3r8UAFIcJ2ZG3mN-WI/view?usp=sharing

 

Flight #09 - Four Science Jr in Space Low situation.

This is easy to loft, but when I was developing the rocket in a Sandbox game, just recovering the capsule and four experiments is a disaster. Jeb can't stop the rocket tumbling nose down, and ploughing into the ground. I did get a kludge working with four Basic Fin on the command pod, but I had to offset them inside the pod so that they didn't burn up from friction, and I didn't like that solution. Playing with game mechanics where aerodynamics doesn't model occlusion but thermal effects do feels "off" to me. In the end I changed from solids to a LV-T45 Swivel on the second stage; between the mass of the engine moving the CoM down, and the better shape for aerodynamics on re-entry, it keeps things pointed the right way during recovery. It's important for me to recover the engine too, as funds are looking a little tight at the moment.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Rg1C265_nacIlVlXQjW-SO1XK1tPCjwL/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11gM8uBWa2uXa2Ui_YFP9VxLMz3PMc2-d/view?usp=sharing

 

Flight #10 - Four Science Jr in Space High situation.

There were two issues with this. I needed more of a kick off the pad, so wanted to go with side mounted boosters, but the aerodynamic forces on the blunt top kill the performance. Easily resolved, I have enough science in the bank to research Stability and the sweet Aerodynamic Nose Cone; issue resolved. The second issue is that coming down from 250km, there is just far too much energy for passive aerobraking to handle, especially with the low heat tolerance of the Science Jr modules. I ended up just brute-forcing it with enough fuel tanks that I had delta-v to spare for re-entry and fired the engine to decelerate during the hottest part of the descent.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sc577P-6ZXcc4P3h4FXJWs4hMKAnmDDG/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cEfoHD4ob2P1qejEbyjcggllZ-emM2HF/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16XodUkmiXr9SZEQAbVOQx59RkhN2syRF/view?usp=sharing

 

So that's it for the Science Jr in situations that I can reach at the moment. Currently 95 science in the bank so I can open up a little more if I need. In a regular career progression this would be a great point to farm sub-orbital tourism for a lot of low-effort funds, but I'm trying to avoid contracts, so onwards and upwards   At least having the Stability node means that building a "nice to fly" orbiter is trivial, so next time Jeb's off for a trip around Kerbin.

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by WarSprite