Artificial atmosphere as an engine or floating lense solar sail?

[kane8907]

Magnets have magnetic curves. When the magnet generates thrust, there must be unused magnetic curves gathered around it. The collision of these magnetic curves will generate excess heat. The magnet will lose its magnetism when the Curie temperature is exceeded. I want it to generate enough thrust. The power of the spacecraft requires very huge magnets. Because the hardness of the magnets that can be used in the universe is very brittle, it is very difficult to produce such a large magnet. Even if it is produced, it is very difficult to install such a large magnet.

Nuclear energy is A clean energy source, but its continuous use requires a large amount of coolant. The universe cannot obtain this type of coolant. Therefore, the current technology cannot use it in spacecraft.

The use of solar energy seems feasible, but when it cannot enter sunlight. , energy cannot be obtained,, and storage of solar energy requires huge batteries, which will increase the weight of the spacecraft, so solar energy is generally used as an auxiliary energy source to maintain the operation of electronic instruments in the universe.

[wumpus]

9 hours ago, kane8907 said:

Nuclear energy is A clean energy source, but its continuous use requires a large amount of coolant. The universe cannot obtain this type of coolant. Therefore, the current technology cannot use it in spacecraft.

Not true.  Nuclear energy has wide use in thermoelectric generators that simply use the energy that radioactive materials actively radiate.  These are more or less mandatory on any probe going past Mars.  There have also been a few devices (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BES-5) that appear to be the same idea, but "kicked up" a little with an additional neutron supply.  More likely the biggest difficulty with putting a reactor approaching criticality would be getting the budget for such a massive undertaking (not so much the reactor as whatever *needed* that much power put in space), although I'd admit that cooling such a beast would require heroic engineering for cooling (including possible comet capture to allow sufficient cooling fluid mass).

[KSK]

On 1/21/2021 at 6:44 AM, kane8907 said:

Nuclear energy is A clean energy source, but its continuous use requires a large amount of coolant. The universe cannot obtain this type of coolant. Therefore, the current technology cannot use it in spacecraft.

Better tell NASA they're wasting their time then.

Kilopower | NASA

 

[kerbiloid]

On 1/21/2021 at 9:44 AM, kane8907 said:

Nuclear energy is A clean energy source, but its continuous use requires a large amount of coolant. The universe cannot obtain this type of coolant. Therefore, the current technology cannot use it in spacecraft.

They can. Ask Canadians.

7 hours ago, KSK said:

Better tell NASA they're wasting their time then.

Kilopower | NASA

Loosers, Still no their reactor in the Great #FFFFFF North.

[cubinator]

On 1/20/2021 at 3:08 AM, Arugela said:

Do you really need the bell once in space?

The answer to that is yes. The engine nozzle is there to capture the kinetic energy from  the exhaust, which in a chemical rocket combusts in the combustion chamber and then goes through the throat. Furthermore, if you really want to capture 100% of the energy, you need an infinitely long nozzle in space. Since the gains taper off with added length and eventually become a detriment, engineers calculate the bell length that gets the most energy while being light enough to accelerate as much as possible.

[Incarnation of Chaos]

On 1/16/2021 at 3:05 PM, Arugela said:

I was wondering last night if a fusion/fision sun would have enough efficiency to help.

And It would probably be easier if the planets held the water as a form of machinery only used by it if it's not enough fuel. Or if it adds a little. Especially if they are to scale towards a sun(very tiny or golf ball size or smaller.). Or if it slowly feeds the sun some time of partial fuel that only needs to exist in small amounts. I have no idea what the specifics are obviously.

could you make a fusion/fision combo sun that is around the size of a soccer ball or a very large bouncy ball the size of a car?

What type of fuel amound could it have and aht type of ISP could it get if it was the major propellor. Maybe using flairs as a means of movment. Assuming you could make it light enough inside. Could you start a reaction with hydrogen and then cause a recycling fusion/fission reaction. Could it get enough force to propell itself and some small bodies if needed? Has anyone every thought about tiny artificial ones like that? It could have very small artificial structures inside if it has enough magenetics to keep it safe. Let alone if it's just starting the level of a normal reaction you would get from existing tested fusion drives. The only difference is if you want the fusion on the outside in case you want to power some external power dongles in the form of planets for communication or as some sort of sensor array.

Could hydrogen be a good means to start such a machine if sent up from earth as it might be safer then plutonium materials? Or is that not doable?

Maybe bring up lots of water(or mine it) and use the water for the planets and the hydrogen for a reaction.

https://www.scmp.com/tech/science-research/article/1840219/china-aims-get-hybrid-fission-fusion-nuclear-reactor-and

someone is trying to make similar. Just make this in an orb and stick it in space then make the fusion part on the outside and the fission part as part of the core. then you just need to make something of a structure that can take the heat or is cooled by space to make some sort of control device to RC it.

https://www.math.nyu.edu/mfdd/files/Hybrid_Fusion_Fission_Conference_A.pdf

So, build this in space with hydrogen or similar. What could you potentially get as far as ISP and range? I'm assuming it has to be very light. I'm assuming it has enough energy generation to make a very powerful containment field. I also wonder if part of the inner structure could be a lightweight permanent magnet to try to make some base safety things in case you need to shut stuff down and maintain a minimal field or other functions. Assuming the heat doesn't kill them. Maybe if it cools down it regens them and they turn on. Maybe with help from the other power sources as it cools down.

Actually, would cold plasma be useful here. Does it gain or loose ISP compared to hot plasma. Or whatever using solar flares would/could accomplish.

https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Images/2019/04/Cold_plasma_tested_on_ISS

Not for propulsion, but I wasn't aware they tested this in space yet.

https://spacenews.com/water-propulsion-technologies-picking-up-steam/

This could be useful for such a thing as you extract helium or hydrogen from space for the reactor.

I was hoping solar flairs from the artificial sun could act like a bell less ion thruster or something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOPAZ_nuclear_reactor

Not sure if the reactor mass includes fuel. I pretended it did not.

Speed of light: 299 792 458 m / s - Speed of the solar system: 200, 000 m/s = 299 592 458

ln(736/710)*9.8*850,000,000 = 299,589,688.61698105410374387436

ln(710/674)*9.8*580,000,000 = 295,766,139.25543934198167411624

 

You would need an ISP of approximately 850 million at it's stats to get to the speed of light. Or approx. 580 million if it had the fuel inside already.

 

If you could get the weight down to half fuel you would only need 44 millions ISP:

ln(52/26)*9.8*44,104,138.2 = 299,592,458.63469057684759779607

 

And this ratio of fuel to mass if you wanted to get there with raw fuel at 12,000 ISP:

 

ln(244930000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000/1)*9.8*12000 = 299,592,458.01821329418606582095

 

Not sure how many zeros that is(2.4493e+1106), but that is a lot of fuel. I'm going to out on a limb and say ISP increases are the best for trying to get to the speed of light.

 

What is the maximum likely ratio of helium/hydrogen that could be stored in an artificial sun? Is that more helium than in the universe or are we safe on helium/hydrogen?(I'm assuming the 1 has to be at least 1 ton. Or could it be less?) Then how much ISP would you need to make such a thing accelerate to the speed of light?

 

I'm assuming that has to do with the power output and the magnetic field producible. But I have no idea what that would be.

 

 

Is there anything more energy producing than a tiny fission/fusion sun generator?

 

Edit: what if the universe is the result of such a device trying to produce the speed of light.

 

So, I'm guessing if you can't get the ISP high enough the solar sail concept would be best. I wonder if it could be improved by being super sensitive and taking from increasingly wide areas of light from the one direction it's moving. If it could move from the sun then take the light from the galaxy etc as it moves out. Or is it too hard to make it be that sensitive. Off topic at this point though. You would just need a sail with sensitivity in one direction to test in one direction as a pure straight run. And a gyroscope to stabilize it without reducing thrust(assuming you can't let it follow the light). And whatever minimal tools are needed to receive data back.

 

Editx: https://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/he.htm

You could use the planets to hold liquid helium or something. Not sure if it would help over the size of the suns own capacity. But it might extend fuel. can you compress it into solid helium? what is the max density you can get helium?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium

I guess you would want the planets around it to store solid helium or something then. they would need to be machines using possibly the suns power to store and concentrate and them maybe deliver it to the sun over it's lifetime. Maybe using the planets movement and gravity to slowly move and transition the state of the helium slowly to the sun as it heats it up and delivers it into the sun slowly. The larger farther out ones being the bigger storage maybe? If they have to be as big as the sun I have no idea how much energy would be needed to store them. Is solid helium magnetic by chance? also could the stream of helium be a conductor for energy or to help as a coupler for the planets?

https://www.chemicool.com/elements/helium-facts.html

Looks interesting if it's also part of thorium and uranium decay. The planets could also then generate it from those and be made of it or have a shell of it. Or whatever else. I guess you might want to make the framework out of radiative materials. Then pack as much of whichever form is densest in containers. Or vice versa. can you get a safe form of the radiative materials and use a process in space to make it decay again in order to transport from earth safely. Assuming it's even practical. If either of those is magnetic you could make the entire thing out of the materials held in with magnetic forces. Maybe with backups if there is room or mass to add such a thing. You could still add atmospheres on some of the planets if it helps as you get closer to the sun to convert between forms to transfer to the sun or to use as equipment of some sort. You could use it in a bio stage of sorts and use the oxygen water permanently on that planet and when done let the helium/hydrogen simply leave the atmosphere and be drawn into the sun. Or act as a minor propellent if it's useful.

You could even form an ort cloud of sorts as a filter to catch stuff going in the wrong direction and cycle some of it back into the system. Maybe even convert materials for different purposes and make it cycle itself back into the sun or similar. And you could have a way to concentrate the most desired stuff into one direction if needed. Maybe a whole in front and back for acceleration/deceleration if it's desired. Assuming it's needed. Where ever your thrust ultimately comes from. Maybe this would be useful from needed maneuvering until you get to deep space. Or for other odd circumstances.

You also might not need mining equipment as you could use the varried temperatures to melt or freeze things and slowly collect and process via a meteor belt or via planetary collection and then forming crusts etc. We could reproduce things like gas giants and other bodies for different functional purposes.

https://www.math.nyu.edu/mfdd/files/Hybrid_Fusion_Fission_Conference_A.pdf

This mentions(on page 11.) a lack of a need for magnetic and inertial confinement methods. (I would imagine both could be used anyway if needed.)The only reason to use magnetic then would be to create a corona for an artificial sun potentially. so multi staged fusion/fission. If it's even needed as orbs using sunlight might be near enough to use the ambient light. If not maybe produce more magnetics to make another layer and possible to help with planetary containment.

https://lasers.llnl.gov/science/icf

Potential ignition source.

And maybe an ort cloud around the front of the motion of the solar system to collect heavier metals that can also act like a sail to some extent. This can recycle those commissions back into the system via melting or other process. The back could be a pure desired propellent only. If there is such a thing. You could also have a solar sail. Maybe it could do the same thing. then you don't need a propellent. You just need light! Ort cloud could be intermingled to catch and convert other resources into the system to not loose particles. If needed. Unless the sun does not give out anything not desired to be lost.

So, I've no meandered onto fusion/fision hybrid mini sun solar sail base miniature solar system. No emission need to be lost except light! So everything can be recycled in favor or pure light base transport. All planets are fuel or some sort of equipment/manufacturing plant for the long haul. No need to loose emisions as the fusion/fision hybrid is a recycler for as close to closed loop as possible with all movement based on a solar sail... 8)

So, it's the solar laser based transport but with it's own powersource. And it could have a pretty long lasing power source. If the propulsion is closed loop it could be shrunk more potentially. And the solar sail could just let it fly away as the close source only needs to be stronger than the distant sources. And you can make the rest of the system as efficient as possible as it only needs sustain the sun as long as possible as opposed to burning as much thrust as possible. So hybrid fusion/fision lazer pointer. the solar sail could also be adjusted to change directions or decrease thrust etc. It could easily go to half way around the solar system for pure forward thrust. And the sun could only burn on the front end if it helps preserve fuel. The corona/light source would potentially only need to be for propulsion. So, it could be controlled. Then only lit on the back to change directions if desired.

That could simplify the system design also as you wouldn't need artificial structures as much. Just enough to hold planets and the solar sail potentially. Maybe. You could simplify it to pure inertial containment if that is more efficient. Or a partial sun with the ability to only go foward or only forward facing items. This could be rotated from the sun itself as it could have a corona over a half disk shape that can turn. then the solar sails can go around it and hooked up into the sun. If you want to add a magnetic field. Not sure if you can mix pure inertial containment with a half disk though. I'm don't really know in any direction though. If that is like a pure solar sail concept it may be possible to get similar or better distances. I wonder what balance of burn vs potential radioactive materials would be needed. Or could you go back to pure recycled low end helium in the sun itself to get acceleration? Don't you just need as long a burning power source as possible then?

Actually, could an ort cloud between the solar sail and the light source amplify the light like a lense to increase thrust? then it could be a laser amplifier and a potential recycling method.

And if all of your material is radioactive decay or other parts of the fuel source or adds to thrust, you can get the empty weight down to basically nothing as it will eventually be fuel. This could obviously get the fuel and ISP needs down significantly. Or, hypothetically, completely.

Could this allow for smaller solar sails or overall better designs?

Would an ice lense against the back of the sail help or add too much mass. It could keep the sail in the correct orientation or help with cooling.

https://www.colorado.edu/faculty/kantha/sites/default/files/attached-files/reiber_solar_sailing.pdf

with a close constant source of light how small could the sail be? Or how efficient could be made to if not expecting a distant source?

The other basically identical design is a giant flashlight with a solar sail on the end.

Editagain: Am I wrong in that it would only take 37 days for a solar sail at 0.058mm/s^2 accelleration to get to the speed of light with constant even acceleration. I have to be missing something. That seems too doable.

300000000/0.000058

= 5172413793103.44827586206896551724


5172413793103.44827586206896551724/3200000*2

= 3232758.6206896551724137931


3200000/60

= 53333.33333333333333333333


ans/60

= 888.88888888888888888889


ans/24

= 37.03703703703703703704

 

If the numbers are correct, I imagine the hard a part is getting the acceleration. How much would it take an artificial source to get that. Let alone if it's partially using the sun.

 

If that is not hard all you would have to do is make a giant flashlight. Hydrogen powered with fusion/fission hybrid with some sort of light source and a lens if needed to amplify. I was presuming you could use a magnetic held fusion hydrogen/helium plasma source if it's efficient as a light source. Or maybe because it's efficient mass wise. You could also possibly hold a gas lens to save on mass if that is possible as you already have the material. Or a water based lens, if it's powerful enough, as it's minimal potential extra mass in the form of oxygen(I assume it will take a lot of oxygen though(here in lies the atmosphere concept again to save on storage tank weight) or other material. This could be made with the fusion reaction if it can be controlled and stuck between the light and sail. And with a smaller sail you could make similar very light lenses going near the sail if needed. I'm sure I'm missing lots of stuff here. This looks too easy.

 

And as mentioned earlier water could be frozen into ideal forms. Including as a form to keep the sail physically in the correct position/curvature for ideal light contact. Unless that risks ripping or something. with enough lenses even a weaker light source could be made strong enough. This could also mean a lighter reactor/battery in the flashlight.

 

If the sails are optimal with other light an atmosphere could be between the lens(es) to filter light with the lenses. Not sure if you would want to carry the water or convert the oxygen into water. I assume you could limit the storage means though. Especially if the lights are in place at all times. Could you keep the light low enough, or additives to the water to keep it's melting point high enough to avoid the light melting it? Salt might help. Or would we then have some nice radioactive material to stop melting?

 

https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/25123/how-to-raise-the-melting-point-of-water

If there was a way to increase pressure maybe you could increase the melting temp so you can get more light. You could also increase it and use water in other layers. This could also go with compacting the gas in the first place to have enough to combine with the hydrogen for making water with oxygen if needed. this could allow stronger amplification of the light if needed potentially. You could aim for a smaller lense/gas area to save on mass projected out to the sail.

I guess the sail could be right on the end of a cone with the water/ice/gas inside it. Then the hottest gas might be near the end to hold it taught. If you add enough lensing you could have ice at the start then water then gas/air at the end near the sail if you have the correct heat at each layer.

You could also do multiple sails going out from the cone if you have multipe light sources. If it's a magnetic contained plasma source you just need to get the fuel to it and keep it from touching or overheating the walls and previous sails. Then you could make a longer cone with more sails in it. depending on how much room you need between each sail. Each sale could then be bigger than the previous.(unless you use a straight tube) This could also give varried acceleration in new ways if you can turn them on and off. plus redundancy if you get a rip. Especially if you have a means for repair or replacement.

I'm calling this a fusion/fission hydrogen/helium hybrid solar sail/flashlight/laser pointer.

I've literally just designed a ship the opposite of my ciggarette ion ship in ksp... Long tube with stuff.

 I guess if this works it would be ideal to add to a laser pointer solar sail.

Also, contained solar sails could be placed front and back inside a tube as many times as you can fit or is efficient. And, if you have a solar sail tube, you can put it on a surface instead of free floating to make it ideally shaped. This might allow more means to maximize pressure on the sail.

This would also allow you to potentially open one end of the tube to melt ice if there are ice asteroids and mine water in space. If you can open them all you could make a real giant laser pointer and the collect the results instead of shipping the water up. The innitial ship could be minimally fuelled with hydrogen/helium/water if that can't be mined also. Or use the nuclear fusion reactor to get to the mining source. The hybrid reactor might be good for initial transport around the system to gather materials until it can get to full power with a fully closed loop solar sail ship.

And if you could simply rotate the solar sails by rotating a surface they are held to you could also decelerate easily in a tube/cone ship. Especially if there is no permanent equipment between lenses and the light source. although if you need equipment to contain a magnetic light source without wasting mass you might have slower deceleration from positioning. Unless being really close is that efficient. Then you don't need the lenses potentially. Or as much of them.

Another possibility is one light source and sails that aren't fully solid. Then you use several of them one behind the other that pick up the slack as light goes through them. I'll assume this is only good if the overall design is lighter or the light is not straight enough and it catches more light. Then you have sails that are like a crochet blanket instead of a solid one. It might also work if each is designed to catch only certain light frequencies. Especially if they are clear accept for the frequency it's supposed to catch and don't block other light somehow.

If the sails are plastic and solid/stiff maybe they could act as lenses for the next light frequency(or if the sails each have multiple frequencies on each sail patched together) you could then get rid of the need for gas/water to save mass potentially. Each lense coudl be a flat surface or similar with a bunch of curved/bubbled color lenses to react to the different colors. Each then amplifying the remaining light into a different color behind until you exhaust the light source.

https://weldtalk.hobartwelders.com/forum/equipment-talk/general-welding-questions/47721-helium-versus-argon

If you need to repair stuff you could use magnetics and basically a plasma are welder concept to patch up holes in the ship if something happens. Depending on materials. either way you could create an arc welder. Maybe if you stick to just gas and recycle the gases throughout the closed loop tube with a fusion/fission hybrid reactor you could make a real arc bolt for a brighter light source. No idea which is more efficient. I'd assume the arc generator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation

Could this help with solar sails? Could it be produced with helium/hydrogen?

Would that be useful as an end stage light source when the reactor starts to die?

This could be interesting if you have small amounts of it and especially if you can make it with the fusion/fission process from existing materials. It might act as a separation layer or other odd things. I wonder if it reflects better than normal water. Or as a filter agent to recycle materials.

Simple stupid version:

What about bioluminescense or something natural with a very strong lens. You could make a very small device potentially with a strong lens in a container amplified against an inner wall with a tiny solar sail material on it. Or similarly a flash light design with a solar sail outside. could you make a natural tiny self powered solar sail to get to the speed of light? The point would be potentially the lower long lasting light amplified by the very strong lensing to produce thrust. Then you have a simple to make non radioactive miniature probe. And 38 days later possibly a test of the speed of light. That or a test of what really pushes solar sails. Especially, if it's within parameters and self contained so it doesn't use the suns light.

https://keepsnap.com/blog/post/most-powerful-lens-in-the-world

Put this in space with a light bulb and a solar sail?!

Probably strip it down to bare minimum parts and make a giant space flashlight to power a solar sail. If you only nee a month or two to try to get to the speed of light(potential mass increase aside) you probably don't need too much power to power the light source. BTW, how strong of a light would you need to power a solar sail with this level of lens power? And who much would that weigh if it has less casing?

This would have much simpler designs to it outside of the potential of power density.

https://petapixel.com/2010/01/06/ginormous-5200mm-canon-lens-on-ebay/

This says if you add something to it it's effectively 8320mm.

What would this do if just pointed at the sun and into a solar sail attached to the lens system. Could it get acceleration without a laser pointed at it. Or what could it do with a small lightbulb and some double A batteries attached.

You are looking at a solar sail and enough power to move at minimum possibly 500 lbs of weight. Whatever that mass is.

Weighs 100kb (220 lbs) without the casing.

I guess at this point you could go Newtonian or similar.

You could either send the light forward and refract onto the sail. Or reverse it and bounce it off another bigger but very thin mirror back onto the sail. Hopefully not countering the effect. I wonder if a lens big enough to refract or a very thing coated surface would be lighter or better. Would one help even the light better? Or could one work with different sail sizes to change the design.

Either way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail

At a total of 200kg you could get half of the stated force I think. 0.025m/s or mm/s?

5 newtons / ( 1880LEO) = 0.00265957446808510638 starting.

 

How much light pressure could you get from an artificial light source if any?

A Fusion Fission device around the size of a basketball?

Possible, but absolutely not what you're thinking. That's called a thermonuclear bomb....fission primary is used to cause fusion in secondary which throws off more heat, more neutrons and causes runaway Fission and Fusion.

Fusion just doesn't scale down well, at least for now. You could have a Fusion Reactor using a Blanket of "Fertile" material to breed Fissionables, but that would be massive. 1200m + at the very least. (Probably closer to 2X that)

It looks like you have some info there about that, but I'm not entirely sure.

But your calculations for Light Speed, well to be honest once you approach 30% of C you have to start taking Relativistic effects into account.

As the rest...

Light sails won't work occluded in a tube, even with artificial light sources. Think about it, whatever forces you generate are being canceled by the other in the opposite direction. The sources add weight, and make the entire thing likely go negative in terms of thrust (i.e it would just consume fuel and not go anywhere).

The entire point of Solar Sails is to NOT have to bring any reaction mass, in the form of fuel or otherwise. If you want to use megaprojects to go straddle light speeds with Solar Sailing, then just use large stellar lasers powered by the dyson bubble you built to power all of this stuff. Then just hit your sail while it's underway with the beam, while it will spread out you can make the sail much larger. And if this is the type of technology you have, then you can make way stations every couple dozen light years to keep it moving.

Like...i admire your creativity and enthusiasm, but i think you need to develop a solid foundation in some of this stuff in terms of the math and science behind it.

 

[Arugela]

Well, as we haven't tested the speed of lights effect on travel properly we could make a cheaper ship to test it now. We could purposely assume light doesn't effect travel as much and make a craft based on lesser criteria as a test. Could we put up a bunch of smaller solar system lasers and try to test it in an orbital path using both the sun and laser as long as possible with just a basic solar sail? Then we could know what the limits are for light better and have specific information. And we could keep testing over and over.

As far as walled solar sails. If it was contained I would imagine you want super light materials. Very light fabrics or thin metal or something designed for lightness. Probably newer stuff designed for it. Make it much lighter than the sails.

I was hoping light might act different in that regard. Especially if one side is more sensitive than the other. Could it potentially allow a closed loop to accelerate? Have we tested this sufficiently. Even if one side is painted a color with more absorption would it be able to accelerate a ligth enough craft in one direction in a closed environment. I would bet there is a way to do it. Especially if you consider materials. Like water maybe some materials allow it to escape or similar if all else fails. Light is weird enough it may give room with stuff we can make to allow some special, "exceptions." At least as an end result. (lets say the one material allows it to escape ultimately somewhere.)

Seeing if light can act that way could be useful. Logically magnetics can go through things in a closed loop to other substances. Do we know light cannot act in weird ways. Especially if light were not a physical thing but just a form of radiation like magnets. It could hypothetically go through objects or not be limited in a closed loop in the same way. Especially if form lights perspective it's not in a closed loop or something else weird.

I wonder if a lab could test the light closed loop concept. They just need an external laser powerful enough. A ship/tube light enough. And a way to distribute the light inside a tube light enough to see if it moves in any direction. Even if it's backwards. It's possible superlight materials could allow this one day. I wonder if like the sail a flexible sail on one side might allow it to redirect. If the other side is reflective enough and one side absorbent enough or something odd. It might be worth testing. There might be some odd trick to make it work. Is there a way to make light disipate so it doesn't, "bounce," off things or something odd? Maye some other tricks with materials that light doesn't interact with like potentially magnets or other forces could be made to ignore. Assuming that is true. That or transfer through while being physical. The point of having a closed loop was to keep in other materials.

If light can escape through things like glass that other materials can't, you have a workable idea. I was going for some sort of internal lens made of water or a light gas to enhance a laser. Obviously water isn't normally light, but can it or something else outweight it's mass in regards to enhancing light for a solar sail in a void? maybe very thin and controlled somehow? Very small amounts too.

Light obviously has the ability to go through glass. So someproperties can make a closed loop for other materials while not doing it for light. That is what I was going for potentially. Transparency. If there are other qualities that could be played off of would it make a ship flyable in a , "closed loop."

I'm looking at more hypothetical. And scalled down if possible. What about small amounts of highly reflective ice crystals(or just crystals) suspended in a gas to make a powerful lense. What makes a lens act like a lens? Maybe a super thin layer of silver or something on a special surface to maximize it. If you could use a plasma as a light source and bounce it back and forth enough while minimizing the loss of light out of a rear transparent, or partially transparent surface, could you use light bouncing and being magnified enough to maximize an internal sail and get forward movement? Might help with heat to make a plasma source. The fusion supply could be part of the mechanism to reflect light. Could this go with the other containment methods for fusion? Or a mix?

It could basically be like those enhanced hybrid newtonians but in reverse. And the glass could be specially made to control the escape of light and slow it down while it maximizes in a very hot fusion chamber. Something like a fusion light based ion drive. You just need to focus containment down to super light materials in a new way. If fusion/fission help in space maybe a helium version could be small enough or light enough.

I think I was reading inertial confinement fusion devices were the size of a dime or something potentially. Could this be used? If it's a closed loop to everything but light could you combine with other things in light weight manner to keep producing a reaction. Maybe a combination of it and other fusion/fission methods. Can you do it with helium already compressed in this closed chamber? How much do you need to compress helium to get such a reaction over deuterium? I think you just need enough of another power source to keep it going. Could it act as a laser or light producer over time as it's small? Or could sufficient light in the chamber help create inertial confinement and make it last? then let small amounts out the back or front as a form of thrust. We could probably make a glass or similar to only let a little bit of a desired lightwave out one direction. You could even make it conic shape to minimize that side and reduce the mass of the glass needed to let it out. Assuming it's heavier than other materials making the cone.

Part of the idea would be to reduce the mass by getting gasses and lightweight materials to do as much of the leg work as possible.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Arugela

[kane8907]

As mentioned in the link, nuclear energy may be used as a clean energy for electronic instruments and radars on artificial satellites, but improving the energy conversion rate is a huge issue. At present, it is impossible to rely solely on the energy converted by naturally absorbed rays. It is also a huge issue to provide the huge kinetic energy needed for the spacecraft to change direction and accelerate, and it is also a huge issue that nuclear waste does not fall to the earth. These may be realized in the future as the development of space and energy technology. But  up to now its hard to use it as a 100 % safe and clean energy.

[KerikBalm]

On 1/25/2021 at 8:48 PM, Arugela said:

Well, as we haven't tested the speed of lights effect on travel properly

Yes, we have...

As to the rest of your post, it is really hard to follow what you are trying to say, because so much of it seems absurd or to make no sense.

I don't know if you just don't realize that it is patently absurd, or you aren't doing a good job explaining what you mean, but I can't understand your posts

[magnemoe]

Regarding solar sails, project starshot had the idea of bouncing laser light between the probe and the laser array, you would obviously need mirrors to bounce back again and I assume adaptive optic for this to work. Now starshot plans of using tiny probes and accelerating them very hard up to relativistic speed who sounds very hard. 

Now would this not work much better for an larger as in hundreds of kg interplanetary probe? 
Much larger mirror on the probe and not artillery g forces. 
Yes the laser array will be an mega project anyway.