Logical inconsistencies

[spikeyhat09]

Can someone please explain to me how a planet 20 billion meters away from Kerbol (with an atmosphere, though only like 20% that of kerbin) has freakishly large icecaps, while a moon orbiting a planet 70 billion meters miles away is basically one big ocean (Where the atmosphere is only about 70% that of kerbin)? Even with the thicker atmosphere, the moon Laythe would be FAR outside the habitable zone. And it doesn't even have icecaps!! 30% thinner atmosphere, like 5 times as far away as kerbin, and it has no ice caps, while kerbin does?!? whats going on here?!

[Cooly568]

This is KSP, it doesn't need to make sense

[sal_vager]

All that co2 had to go somewhere spikeyhat09

And Layth may have nothing that freezes at those temperates.

[N_las]

Tidal forces can heat a moon (see europa). Liquid water isn't restricted to the "habitable zone".

[ZeroTheAstronaut]

Who says the oceans are water?

Also, Jool. Go take a temp reading of that Gas Giant. If it is water, I'm sure you'll find Jool is outputting a freakish amount of heat, or tidal forces heat Laythes core, or Laythes atmo has a freakish high CO2 content.

[trbinsc]

Well, Laythe is really close to Jool, and has a 4:2:1 resonance with Tylo and Vall IIRC. Both of these factors would lead to tidal forces which would heat the planet enough to sustain liquid water.

[spikeyhat09]

Well, Laythe is really close to Jool, and has a 4:2:1 resonance with Tylo and Vall IIRC. Both of these factors would lead to tidal forces which would heat the planet enough to sustain liquid water.

But would it be enough to prevent icecaps from forming?

Edited September 24, 2012 by spikeyhat09

[sting_auer]

Again, who says it is water?

[spikeyhat09]

Again, who says it is water?

I suppose it could be something other than water... For example, ?

[Angelmoon]

It is possible, if unlikely that if Laythe had an atmosphere comprised entirely of CFC's (Chlorofluorocarbons), which are insanely good at being greenhouse gasses and Duna's was only basic Nitrogen and CO2, with very little greenhouse effect, making it very cold indeed. It also could be methane oceans on Laythe which have a much lower freezing point than water. This is all amusing though that Kerbals have the same elements as us.

[Elmach]

Methane hydrate.

Oh wait, that's minmus.

How about liquid helium liquid nitrogen?

Edited September 24, 2012 by Elmach
Because helium wouldn't get to Jool.

[lagalas]

It can be tidal heating like on Io and Europa(moon) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_heating or liquid methane like on Titan.

[benjaminlawrence27]

A point to remember here is that even though we know a great deal about how planetary systems form, they still surprise us, and we don't really know why they are like they are in every situation. Plus it's whatever - I can crash into a moon with a liquid surface whether it's frozen over or not.

[NovaSilisko]

The idea I had behind it was in fact tidal heating, combined with a collected thick atmosphere. Also, it does actually have tiny ice caps.

[spikeyhat09]

Oh. I stand corrected. so Laythe is like a Europa analog?

[Werwolf]

spikey, you are drawing conclusions that KSP's developers wanted their universe to be the same as ours as far as physics go. They don't, I'm pretty sure. This is KSP... they make up what they want as they go along, and that's half the fun, figuring this stuff out

[NovaSilisko]

Well, Vall is the Europa analog, but Laythe is pretty much a "melted europa".

[spikeyhat09]

spikey, you are drawing conclusions that KSP's developers wanted their universe to be the same as ours as far as physics go. They don't, I'm pretty sure. This is KSP... they make up what they want as they go along, and that's half the fun, figuring this stuff out

well, the universe physics in KSP have to be like that of our universe, otherwise it would be no good as a space simulator/game. imagine if gravity were reversed, or anti friction? everything would just zip all over the place!

[Aphox]

Methane hydrate.

Oh wait, that's minmus.

How about liquid helium liquid nitrogen?

Yeah but methane hydrate is ice. Cassini took photographs of Titan's surface that revealed hydrocarbon lakes. Liquid methane. Doesn't make a whole lotta sense to have Minmus made of methane ice while something that far out is liquid hydrocarbon, but then again, KSP.

But it could very well be methane. Maybe Minmus is some creepy green gas.

well, the universe physics in KSP have to be like that of our universe, otherwise it would be no good as a space simulator/game. imagine if gravity were reversed, or anti friction? everything would just zip all over the place!

Grand Theft Auto? Just Cause 2?

[spikeyhat09]

Well, Vall is the Europa analog, but Laythe is pretty much a "melted europa".

Ah, i see. then is Tylo the Io analog? It looks kinda similar, but there wouldn't be any tidal forces against it. not with Bop on the other side...

[NovaSilisko]

Nah, Tylo is just a big ball of rocks.

[khyron42]

Regarding Laythe - In the real world, Titan's atmosphere is thicker than can be accounted for by its gravity alone. Scientists figured out that, while some of the atmosphere escapes over time, it is still gravitationally bound and at orbital speed around Saturn. It ends up in a diffuse gas ring along Titan's orbit called a "gas torus", which Titan then continuously regains as much from as it loses over time. That's not to say that it hasn't lost quite a bit since formation - just that the losses are now in equilibrium with the re-aquisitions.

This works because of the relatively huge gravity well of Saturn and of Titan relative to the other moons; from an orbital mechanics standpoint, all possible escape paths from Titan for the highest-energy gas molecules in the upper atmosphere lead into a narrow band of Saturn orbits that guarantee eventual return to Titan's atmosphere, and the torus is so thin that inter-molecular collisions aren't significant. This would stop being true if the gas gets too dense out in the torus (inter-molecular collisions would eject occasional molecules from the gas torus region), and there's also increased loss if the atmospheric temperature increases greatly (gas molecules at the upper edge of the atmosphere are then occasionally high enough energy to leave Titan's influence permanently) - so it all ends up with an equilibrium where we see it today.

KSP probably can't model an extremely thin atmosphere in a torus along Laythe's orbit, but we can assume that it's there - Jool acting the same as Saturn does for Titan. The resulting thick Laythe atmosphere - possibly pure Methane, a really strong greenhouse gas - plus tidal heating, could explain the liquid water oceans. The lower molecular weight of Methane than H2O even explains why there are no clouds, incidentally - they exist on Earth because water vapor is considerably lighter than dry air at the same temp & pressure.

Or, of course, we can go with "because the devs made it that way." I just wanted to point out that Laythe's condition isn't a logical fallacy or violation of physics, it just mimics an unusual quirk of physics that also exists to a lesser degree in our own solar system.

Edited September 25, 2012 by khyron42

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@khyron24

I assume you mean a Methane ocean?

[UmbralRaptor]

So Laythe is like a Europa analog?

It's sort of a cross between Io and Titan. Sort of.

[katyjsst]

I'd suppose Laythe's water is liquid methane (see Saturn's moon: Titan)

Liquid methane has a low freezing point. Is a gas in room temp, but a liquid 70 billion meters away.

Though I think liquid methane is yellow in color.

It could be liquid hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen of some sort.

Edited September 25, 2012 by katyjsst