Game Theory Question (Non-KSP)... Tarkov

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

I have a question about how Game Theory would suggest I approach a situation in another game I'm playing.  Appreciate any insight!

 

The game is a First Person Shooter (on the surface).  It incorporates both Player vs Player and Player vs Environment (AI).  Stealth is a major component of the game, and Players can 'win' a match without ever firing a shot.  Players can also 'win' by killing everything they run into.  Or any combo in between.  The only true win condition is that the Player has to survive and extract.  No respawns.

Game economy is a major part of the experience.  Time is another major factor, as it can take 4-6 minutes to get into a match, and 10-40 minutes to complete a match.  Every death is a loss (time and money), or at best zero-sum (money).

Players get to enter a match as one of two characters. 

• Character 1 is set up however the player wants to set up (or can afford to set up) their character.  They can choose high-class weapons that reduce their Time to Kill other players / AI, add armor to increase their survivability, add heals, etc.  Character 1 has missions to accomplish, and can loot along the way.  If Character 1 survives a match, everything brought in and found is the player's to keep (net profit).  If Character 1 dies, everything is lost (net loss to player).  Character 1s are also juicy targets for other players, because they bring in high value gear that other players can take.
• Character 2 is random, weak and low level.  Primary purpose of Character 2 is to gather loot and extract and then sell to support Character 1's ability to accomplish missions.  Anything Character 2 finds and extracts with is the player's to keep (net profit).  If Character 2 dies, everything is lost (zero cost to player).  Character 2s rarely have anything worth taking, but can find high-value gear and so they're worth looting (sometimes).

Character 1s have a distinct advantage over Character 2s in all aspects of the match, excluding player skill.

Matches comprise multiple players running either of their own Character 1 or Character 2 classes, and AI characters all on the same map.  TTK for all characters is low, except as noted above.

• AI characters look like Character 2s, and view all Character 1's as enemies and will attack on sight.   They are, however, generally weaker than Character 1s and easily dealt with, but can kill any player on the map.
• AI characters are not (initially) aggressive toward Character 2 players.  Character 2 players can walk around AI and never be attacked - and even use AI to warn them if any Character 1s approach, and will fight Character 1s with the Character 2.  However, if a Character 2 player kills any AI character, all AI now view that player as an enemy and will attack.  AI characters are generally as strong as Character 2s, but are AI... so player skill generally rules these engagements.
• Character 1's view any other character on the map as an enemy.  All Character 1s, Character 2s and AI are free to be attacked, and players can expect all of them to attack (or try to avoid) their Character 1.
• Character 2s are in a unique situation. 
  • All Character 1s are enemies, and much stronger, but profitable to kill, and will try to kill you - usually successfully.
  • AI will ignore all Character 2s, until and unless the Character 2 attacks an AI or another Character 2, and then all AI are agro on the Player's Character 2.  They will continue to ignore other Character 2s on the map.  
  • Other Character 2s are unpredictable.  They are run by players and there are no rules: players can choose to attack or ignore other Character 2s and AI. 
    • There is no way to tell the difference between an AI or Character 2, outside of certain behaviors.
    • Some players choose to attack and kill other Character 2s and all AI regardless of the AI agro penalty.
    • Some players choose to avoid all contact and just loot
    • Character 2 vs Character 2 is generally a coin-toss.
    • Character 2 vs AI is generally a win for the player - 1v1... but certain areas have multiple AI, so this is a risky move.

The question is - how to behave as a Character 2 player.

Remember - time investment is a major factor, and the only win condition is survival.  Modifying this is the need for the player to gather as much high-quality loot as possible to support the player's Character 1 progression.  A stealth run with no contact and an extract is pure profit.  A successful 'kill' run can be somewhat more profitable... Presuming you win.  But this strategy brings another risk: the Character 1s looking for PVP tend to focus on and run toward the sound of fights, and AI ambushes are a real threat.  However, a Character 2 pursuing a 'no conflict' or 'live and let live' vs other Character 2s and AI is at a distinct disadvantage (ceding initiative) to a different Character 2 looking for a fight.

 

So given that time is valuable and the only win is to survive... is it smarter to be that agro PVP Character 2, or the stealth player (over time)?

[YNM]

2 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Stealth is a major component of the game, and Players can 'win' a match without ever firing a shot.

From the japanese streamers that I watched they barely have to shoot anything while playing it. A lot closer to horror really XD

(that being said they do play other FPS and they have pretty good shooting skill - nearly all japanese men who plays FPS can play it well from what I gather, XD)

Edited May 18, 2021 by YNM

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

6 minutes ago, YNM said:

From the japanese streamers that I watched they barely have to shoot anything while playing it. A lot closer to horror really XD

(that being said they do play other FPS and they have pretty good shooting skill - nearly all japanese men who plays FPS can play it well from what I gather, XD)

It really is a military-horror game with stealth and FPS and looting as key elements.  It's brutally hard to play well, and I'm hooked.

On the other hand, I'm also over 50, and unlike my son (14) who crushes the PVP fights, I'm better at the stealth.  It's simply deciding whether to stick to my inclination or try to adapt to the attack everything mentality that some players use I'm dithering over.

 

(Oh, and I've watched Japanese, German and Russian streamers - and while I can only understand the English speakers and part of what the German dudes say - there are some amazing players out there with head-shot skills that must be admired!).

[YNM]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

On the other hand, I'm also over 50, and unlike my son (14) who crushes the PVP fights, I'm better at the stealth.  It's simply deciding whether to stick to my inclination or try to adapt to the attack everything mentality that some players use I'm dithering over.

Think that about the two character types you said the guy I watched playing tend to use fairly OK weapons but still only shoot when he has to.

That being said he doesn't stream the game anymore since 2 month ago. Most of the guys I'm watching usually do APEX or Valorant, incl. him and his friends.

Edited May 18, 2021 by YNM

[K^2]

So presumably, C1 can't distinguish between C2 and AI on sight other than by observing behavior, meaning that C1 will probably attack C2 on sight, simply to avoid risk of letting AI or hostile C2 fire first. Any incidental loot you get from C2 is bonus in this case, but not primary motivator.

In that case, correct C2 behavior is opportunistic scavenger. Consider other C2s and AI to be your team mates unless they show aggression towards you, but keep in mind that if there is shiny loot, like a C1 corpse, it will likely result in fight for the spoils. Avoid C1s - since they are unlikely to go look for you, it shouldn't be too hard. C1 players who charge after any C2 they see are unlikely to do well in the game, so at least, they should have weaker gear. So try to run away first, and then take the fight if chased. At the same time keep an eye out for opportunity to take out C1s with overwhelming numbers. Again, it'll likely result in a fight for the spoils, but it's a great opportunity to pick up good gear.

The hard part to determine without playing the game is the threshold for risk. Is 2 on 1 good enough odds to risk it? From description, sounds like it's not. But maybe if you have 2 C2s to ambush and AI to create a distraction, that can work well enough. Ability to communicate with other C2s is a big part of what's going to set the balance here. If you can co-ordinate, there are a lot more situations where you should take the risk and try to take down C1. It also gives you an opening for bargaining instead of fight for the spoils. If there is no communication, you'll probably want a larger group to take down C1 and be prepared to tail it if it doesn't go well.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

53 minutes ago, K^2 said:

presumably, C1 can't distinguish between C2 and AI on sight other than by observing behavior, meaning that C1 will probably attack C2 on sight,

C1 players have a distinctive military appearance. AI and C2s look like kitted up civilians. 

C1 play is straightforward - everything is your enemy and target.  Most missions involve you killing C1s, C2s and AI - so when you go in, you are in fight mode and geared accordingly. The only real risk for a lone C1 is running into a group of C1 players who teamed up pre-match.  Running into a team of C2s can be a coin toss - the C1 might tank both or kill one before dying.  C1 teams are common. 

53 minutes ago, K^2 said:

The hard part to determine without playing the game is the threshold for risk. Is 2 on 1 good enough odds to risk it? From description, sounds like it's not. But maybe if you have 2 C2s to ambush and AI to create a distraction, that can work well enough

 

The C2 play is challenging.  Team up with a friend pre-match and you can be a lot more confident on the map.  Players are unlikely to 'adopt' one another once in match.  They could - and perhaps the Devs are working towards this... But... Perhaps impromptu coop is not unheard of - but far more common for C2s who find themselves fighting the same C1 crew to have one turn on the other after the engagement. 

The most frustrating part is that you can move into a building, be surprised by an ambush ready AI - and then nothing happens... It was a friendly AI. You are safe and can safely loot.  Except that sometimes the 'friendly AI' waits for you to loot several areas and then when you are ready to move on - they kill you (because they're actually a C2) then scarper off with your backpack while you are back to the home screen. 

So ultimately it's the uncertainty that is the issue 

Edited May 18, 2021 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[YNM]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

but far more common for C2s who find themselves fighting the same C1 crew to have one turn on the other after the engagement. 

Well  I mean if it's not your team in any way or sense and you can kill them and loot them then just go and kill it while you can... Works a lot in other battle-royale type stuff too (wait for the others to fight first then attack when they're weaker/non-expecting).

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

The most frustrating part is that you can move into a building, be surprised by an ambush ready AI - and then nothing happens... It was a friendly AI. You are safe and can safely loot.  Except that sometimes the 'friendly AI' waits for you to loot several areas and then when you are ready to move on - they kill you (because they're actually a C2) then scarper off with your backpack while you are back to the home screen. 

So ultimately it's the uncertainty that is the issue 

I guess shoot anyone that's not a friend is the way forward really. You want to have really good aim and reaction though, so maybe aim training ? Basically the same situation with like Counter-Strike or Point Blank, or the more recent Valorant, you really can't waste any time letting the enemy live any amount of time it's in front of you (unless it doesn't notice you and you don't have anything to fight against it).

Now yes you could be attracted to where people really want to shoot each other situation but I suppose you can balance your needs. If it's only a single footstep probably you can go and kill it, but if you know there're a lot of people around you might try to sneak out.

Edited May 18, 2021 by YNM

[K^2]

3 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

but far more common for C2s who find themselves fighting the same C1 crew to have one turn on the other after the engagement.

Yeah, that's kind of what I expect if both players are strangers. Given that loss of C2 just costing you time, it's basically a free double-or-nothing with added risk that the other player is thinking the same thing and you don't want them to get the drop on you. Without having some prior communication, the most reasonable thing is to start shooting.

But that doesn't mean you can't team up for an ambush. There is very little benefit to attacking another C2 until there is loot to split, and opening fire just attracts attention. The reasonable thing to do is to just go your own way if there is no C1 or other loot in sight, and to temporarily team up for an ambush if there is a C1 you might take down.

That said, player "culture" is important here. If it's common for other C2s to attack each other on sight, then you're not going to fix that simply with the fact that it's not the optimal strategy. In which case, your best option is to just stay out of everyone's way as much as possible. If any C2 is immediately a hostile, you win nothing by provoking combat. Yeah, you might win, and maybe you'll get a bit more loot out of it, but you just attracted attention, and now your odds are significantly worse.

One more option, and this is definitely an "if you're good enough," and AI has predictable patterns, is to shepherd an AI. If you can stick to cover and still have good vantage on whoever that AI picks a fight with, you might get sufficient advantage if C1 player turns out to be not very good or already wounded, while still leaving yourself an option to make yourself scarce. It's a higher risk strategy but with higher frequency of good payout, so it might be viable for some players.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

5 minutes ago, K^2 said:

player "culture" is important here. If it's common for other C2s to attack each other on sight, then you're not going to fix that simply with the fact that it's not the optimal strategy. In which case, your best option is to just stay out of everyone's way as much as possible. If any C2 is immediately a hostile, you win nothing by provoking combat. Yeah, you might win, and maybe you'll get a bit more loot out of it, but you just attracted attention, and now your odds are significantly worse.

I'm only a month into the game, and still getting a feel for it.  Typical of Russian titles I've played, it's like "Here's a game.  Looks simple on the surface... but there are a LOT of rules and metrics we're not going to tell you about.  Have fun!"

(Another refrain: "It's not supposed to be fun... it's supposed to be hard!")

Thus - I'm trying to develop a strategy for how to deal with a culture where some players leave you alone and others do not and you cannot know, ever, which one you're running into...

 

 

 

...

 

 

And despite all this uncertainty and frustration - I keep logging on!

[YNM]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I'm only a month into the game, and still getting a feel for it. [...]

And despite all this uncertainty and frustration - I keep logging on!

Good luck, fingers crossed

Honestly looking at the weapons seems like they have all sorts of it. Pretty cool if you're into weapons IRL as well I suppose.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

4 minutes ago, YNM said:

Good luck, fingers crossed

Honestly looking at the weapons seems like they have all sorts of it. Pretty cool if you're into weapons IRL as well I suppose.

As someone with quite a bit of weapon knowledge... I really appreciate what they've done.  If only modding weapons were so easy (and cheap).

There is actually quite a bit to admire with what the Dev team has accomplished so far - especially given that it's a long term beta.

[K^2]

2 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I'm only a month into the game, and still getting a feel for it.  Typical of Russian titles I've played, it's like "Here's a game.  Looks simple on the surface... but there are a LOT of rules and metrics we're not going to tell you about.  Have fun!"

"You'll need a notepad and a logarithmic ruler," is pretty typical of Russian game design. TBH, I'd probably veer that way myself if I haven't had real game designers slapping my hands. "No, bad Konstantin," they would say, "We are not going to edit this properties sheet with a hex editor. Gives us a GUI." 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

50 minutes ago, K^2 said:

"You'll need a notepad and a logarithmic ruler," is pretty typical of Russian game design. TBH, I'd probably veer that way myself if I haven't had real game designers slapping my hands. "No, bad Konstantin," they would say, "We are not going to edit this properties sheet with a hex editor. Gives us a GUI." 

Grin

Case in point @   hidden metrics... 

Ran a PMC (C1) run where I had to visit three different contested zones on a very large map (think walking through forest and fields between built up areas), where it can easily take 10 minutes just to walk, let alone skulk, from place to place.  Along the way I killed five Scavs (AI) and two Player Scavs (C2).  Accomplished the mission I had and was looking to extract.  Except the extract was closed.  So I had to turn around and start walking to a different corner of the map... only to die of dehydration.  Fail.

Silly me: I forgot to take water onto a big map.  No one tells you you need water - you discover this the hard way.  Also, the game does not tell you whether some extracts are open or not.

FWIW - good GUI is good customer relations!  I have friends who love hex editing stuff - probably because they can.  Folks like me?  We need good GUI!

 

@YNM - there is one Russian metric I'm having a hard time adjusting to: automatic fire.  The game rewards putting the gun on full auto and spraying.  As a former Marine... this just irks me.  I typically used automatic weapons prone, on a bipod or tripod.  Even Burst on the M-16A2 was only for very close quarters; we tried it on a paper target 50m away, and the first round was center mass, the second over the target and the third lost in space.  So 'muscle memory' is to use semi-auto... but this is a Russian game - so doing that is a distinct disadvantage.

[K^2]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

there is one Russian metric I'm having a hard time adjusting to: automatic fire.  The game rewards putting the gun on full auto and spraying.  As a former Marine... this just irks me.  I typically used automatic weapons prone, on a bipod or tripod.  Even Burst on the M-16A2 was only for very close quarters; we tried it on a paper target 50m away, and the first round was center mass, the second over the target and the third lost in space.  So 'muscle memory' is to use semi-auto... but this is a Russian game - so doing that is a distinct disadvantage.

This is definitely game being a game. I don't have first-hand experience with Soviet/Russian military firearms, but I know plenty of people who do. Because AK family of rifles lacks burst mode, using short trigger pulls for controlled bursts was actually part of training. Simply letting 'er rip in auto is not a thing you were trained to do ever. Most of the time, the rifle would be in single fire mode, just like you'd expect on US counterparts. And just as you describe, even in a short burst, only your first round goes where you send it, the rest going way high due to recoil, meaning you'd only ever use this for suppression or at short range. So really, the biggest difference is that you don't have a handy 3-round burst mode on an AK, requiring a bit of practice to achieve similar effect with full auto on selector.

Spraying bullets from anything but a mounted weapon is purely a game invention, as far as I can tell, and has no basis in fact regardless of country of origin.

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, K^2 said:

I don't have first-hand experience with Soviet/Russian military firearms, but I know plenty of people who do. Because AK family of rifles lacks burst mode, using short trigger pulls for controlled bursts was actually part of training. Simply letting 'er rip in auto is not a thing you were trained to do ever.

I trained with an AK-47 clone during my military service, and can confirm that. Aimed single-shot except in some very specific circumstances, in which case you'd go with short trigger pulls for controlled bursts of three shots or so.

[YNM]

6 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

There is one Russian metric I'm having a hard time adjusting to: automatic fire.  The game rewards putting the gun on full auto and spraying.

Given the breadth and width of the game mechanics, personally not using every single one of it available is OK I suppose. Unless the reward is like stupidly high.

5 hours ago, K^2 said:

Spraying bullets from anything but a mounted weapon is purely a game invention, as far as I can tell, and has no basis in fact regardless of country of origin.

I mean you only have a mouse / stick pad to control everything with so

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

8 hours ago, K^2 said:

This is definitely game being a game

I accept that - and also as a distinguishing characteristic between it and other FPS titles. 

Every game has to have something fun!  It's just my slowly ossifying brain not adapting quick enough.  My kid?  He's crushing it. 

They actually do it well - the RPG progression of the PMC allows you to get better over time (meaning the weapon becomes more controlled). 

[YNM]

3 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

They actually do it well - the RPG progression of the PMC allows you to get better over time

Huh. That's interesting. Is it like an upgradeable (well, trainable) skill thing ?

Edited May 19, 2021 by YNM

[K^2]

8 hours ago, YNM said:

I mean you only have a mouse / stick pad to control everything with so

Yeah, but a lot of games actually simulate recoil fairly realistically and have punishing ammo economy, so you learn to use bursts there as well.

But I also agree with @JoeSchmuckatelli that, for a game, it's a style choice, and neither is the wrong way to do it. I was merely pointing out that there is no inherent reason for this to be a Russian vs Western choice in game design. It's true that U.S.-made FPS have lately been going far more into... I don't want to call it realism precisely, but maybe less suspension of disbelief? At least, as far as firearms themselves go. While Russian games still have a lot more of that old school Doom and Quake feel to them. Maybe because we got these games in Russia a bit later, and they are more recent in everyone's memory? Idk, but I grew up on Quake II, where recoil was something you learned to compensate for, but never a reason to let go of the fire key. And yeah, it's a completely different play style.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

7 minutes ago, YNM said:

Huh. That's interesting. Is it like an upgradeable (well, trainable) skill thing ?

Rabbit hole time!

I'll try to skip over much of the stuff mentioned or alluded to above.  That said, I've rarely stumbled upon a shooter game with more detailed and different metrics.  We've touched on the weapons modding aspect as well as FPS gameplay - but there's a whole lot more going on under the surface.  Kind of like KSP was, for many, a process of discovery where every new game session opened up different possibilities, my experience with Tarkov is one of constant learning.  Tarkov is a horror, military, stealth, FPS, RPG, item modding and resource developing game all in one.

Let's take a moment to contrast the surface stuff with Battlefield or COD, because that's what gets showcased.  Both are easy to access FPS titles with cool graphics, some weapons modding and a gameplay that can be distilled down to effectively "Tag".  Getting into a match is fairly easy, players try to rack up kills, die, respawn, go for more kills or capture areas until the game timer ends and one team wins and players get some bragging rights.  Rinse Repeat, nothing lost, and whatever progress you are making is always forward.  As a player, you really don't have much invested and even if they have a 'hardcore' mode, you can just immediately get back into a match with a fully kitted character, who's full strength from the get go, and keep playing tag.

Tarkov is - despite anything that might be showcased on videos or streams - almost nothing like that.

I can't stress the issue of 'Time' enough as a factor in this game.  The player's economy is similarly important.  The two characters you have, PMC and Scav are as I've described above.  But a Scav has a 'cooldown timer' after a Raid of approximately 10 minutes.  So even if you have a good Raid, or die, you can't just jump back into a match with your Scav.  PMCs can be played back to back to back - but you have to kit your PMC.  So if you die, you not only have a 'hatchling' with no gun, no armor, no equipment... he's also persistently wounded.  You can pay to have him instantly healed, or use items you've found or bought to heal your player, and then equip him with weapons, gear, food, med supplies, etc. - all from what you've successfully extracted with or bought from vendors or other players (the game has a very good 'auction house' for players to sell found items to one another).  So while the Scav is free to play, and you cannot lose anything, and any successful run is profit... you have limited time / opportunity to use him.  Your PMC on the other hand is expensive.  Further - time is a factor because of how long it takes to get into a raid, and to run a raid.  You literally 'feel' this investment as you're playing, and can, consequently get 'gear fear' where you play too conservatively out of fear of losing the stuff you've worked so hard to acquire.  You might get pumped playing COD or BFx, but you get tense with Tarkov.  Anxious.  Adrenalin pumping when you win, and disappointed when you die.

Between raids, you have a challenge of resource management: what to keep, what to sell, how to equip your character and quite often - how to keep enough inventory space available so that you can actually acquire your Scav's items after a raid.  (Great raid?  No space?  No soup for you!  Time?  Wasted.)  You get to explore modding different weapons to improve ADS time, handling, TTK, recoil, etc.  You can't just keep weapons and ammo - you need space for quest items, med supplies, food, crafting supplies, gear, etc.  You also have a 'Hideout' which you get to improve that will aid your PMC in healing / recovering (hydration and energy), allow you to craft items to sell or use, test your weapons between raids, etc. etc.  There's like 10-12 sub-areas of the Hideout each with its own function and development tree and benefits.  The PMC also has a skill progression 

In order to improve your Hideout, you have to complete quests for NPC 'Dealers'.  This 'quest' metric is awesome - because it is constantly sending players to different parts of the maps for more than just 'good loot'.  In-game this results in random, unexpected encounters between players throughout the map, along with the higher concentration of AI Scavs in the zones where quest objectives are.  Other times, the 'good loot' areas are massive CQB fights or running fights much like you could find in other FPS titles - with one major exception: there are no set 'contact points' or zones to capture that give you or your team an advantage.  Seven consecutive runs to the Resort area to try for the good loot will result in seven completely different fights in unexpected places around the Resort. But you have to go to these contested areas to get the good loot to upgrade your hideout, complete quests, sell to get money to equip your PMC, etc.

So at long last, we are at Character skill progression - which is a ton of ways where the game keeps track of your in-game experiences and you get to see your PMC improve in abilities, like Recoil Control, or Strength (farther grenade throws), medical skills (faster heals), faster running, faster searching, more stuff you can carry without penalty, better use of certain weapons... the list goes on and on.  This is largely passive - but you actually can focus on something; like loading up a pack and running to exhaustion to improve related skills, or doing field-medical on yourself, etc.

Anyway - I'm still learning... but for anyone who enjoys FPS gameplay, but is tired of "Tag" - Tarkov is a brutally difficult, immersive game that is worth a look.  (Unfortunately, there's no demo - so it really is a full-game purchase price to 'see if you like it').

One last thing: sound.  Sound is incredibly important in-Raid.  I cannot tell you how many times I have crouched, tense, waiting to figure out which way some other player went or where they are coming from as we both try to silently get advantage over one another.  The sound system is excellent - and modified by different gear, skills etc.  Really adds to the 'stealth' and immersion of the game.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

14 minutes ago, K^2 said:

I was merely pointing out that there is no inherent reason for this to be a Russian vs Western choice in game design

I've spent most of my RU-designed/ market games with World of Tanks (and clones) as well as Tarkov.  What WOT had was an on-the-surface simple Tank-skinned FPS arena battle game... but as you played you discovered a ton of hidden / not obvious features where skilled & experienced players could learn and use for advantage over others.  Tarkov is similar. 

 

My critique of major-studio US games is that they are exactly what you see on the surface.  Player-learned knowledge is a minimal requirement for success, rather than surface WYSIWYG and twitch skills.

 

So my impression of RU games is 

16 hours ago, K^2 said:

"You'll need a notepad and a logarithmic ruler,

to know how to play at the highest level.

...and I like that.

[YNM]

1 hour ago, K^2 said:

Yeah, but a lot of games actually simulate recoil fairly realistically and have punishing ammo economy, so you learn to use bursts there as well.

Yeah. Guess I've mostly been listing games that're just for the fun of it most of the time, and honestly it's not a bad thing as after all you're doing entertainment for yourself. Tarkov is definitely not all 'fun and games' if we could say so.

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I can't stress the issue of 'Time' enough as a factor in this game.

Kinda wonder if it's an effect in real-time too - like how many players are in etc.

Lots of the people I watch do sometimes play in odd hours or so to avoid the really strong ones. Yes ofc this isn't entirely right in any way or sort (as if it's known then it just needs someone strong go in there and the balance is restored) but they do it regardless.

Also I think you can 'cheat' the scav cooldown time by simply use the PMC as scav but idk.

Edited May 19, 2021 by YNM

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

32 minutes ago, YNM said:

Yeah. Guess I've mostly been listing games that're just for the fun of it most of the time, and honestly it's not a bad thing as after all you're doing entertainment for yourself. Tarkov is definitely not all 'fun and games' if we could say so.

Kinda wonder if it's an effect in real-time too - like how many players are in etc.

Lots of the people I watch do sometimes play in odd hours or so to avoid the really strong ones. Yes ofc this isn't entirely right in any way or sort (as if it's known then it just needs someone strong go in there and the balance is restored) but they do it regardless.

Also I think you can 'cheat' the scav cooldown time by simply use the PMC as scav but idk.

You can absolutely run your PMC as a Scav - or do a 'Hatchet Run' where you literally only bring in a knife or hatchet.  Folks do it all the time for quests.  Tarkov recently added a metric to keep people from abusing this, however - making it so you had to meet certain conditions to be 'in raid'.  This keeps people from charging naked to the best loot spawn, grabbing everything and running out.  In the beginning, however, when I was poor and did not know what I was doing, I would follow my son into a raid with nothing but a pistol, let him kill stuff and I'd loot.  Helped with getting to learn the maps.  There's a lot of flexibility in what you do.  My son likes to take his Scavs in, kill his way to better loot, tank up and then hunt PMCs, as effectively a PMC.  He's quite often successful.

Time - choosing times - is a factor in every game I've played, and I don't think its a cheap metric.  There's no 'leaderboard' so that can't be abused by playing at off hours, but you can find less populated times to avoid the guys who've done everything and are only looking for PVP.  The Day-Night cycle also adds an interesting metric.  You can't see squat at night - but can use a flashlight, NVGs or Thermals/IR.  Not many players choose night - so they're again fair game for missions.  Night raids also bring out the weird creepy guy AIs that can really mess you up, but have good loot all their own.

It's fun in the sense of 'doing something difficult, and succeeding' is fun.  Certainly not 'casual, relaxing entertainment' fun

[YNM]

9 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

It's fun in the sense of 'doing something difficult, and succeeding' is fun.  Certainly not 'casual, relaxing entertainment' fun

Well some games deffo go more on the 'it's fun to shoot at things in a game' end of things. Even under such rules you can have widely varying play styles.

9 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

In the beginning, however, when I was poor and did not know what I was doing, I would follow my son into a raid with nothing but a pistol, let him kill stuff and I'd loot.  Helped with getting to learn the maps.  There's a lot of flexibility in what you do.  My son likes to take his Scavs in, kill his way to better loot, tank up and then hunt PMCs, as effectively a PMC.  He's quite often successful.

Yeah. Was wanting to say that you probably might advance better if you have someone else to train with.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

5 hours ago, YNM said:

you probably might advance better if you have someone else to train with

Heh.  In the 90s, I was quite competitive in the FPS games I played. I doubt I will ever be a fast reflex guy again - but I still enjoy these types of games... So I gotta work smarter than harder!