Pipelines to connect bases on a given body

[darthgently]

I searched for "pipeline" in this forum and didn't get a hit, so please forgive me if already brought up. 

These would just be simplified supply routes really.  They would not cause the bases to be considered a single craft; that is they would not dock them together.  So purely a visual thing with regards to craft connections and not something to trigger kraken.  But would allow automated flow of all varieties of materials. 

Example, one base on Mun drills for water, another drills for ore.  The water site needs fuel while the ore site needs water (assuming some kind of life support either stock or mod).  The time to create the pipeline would depend on capacity, length, and number and experience level of engineers at both ends of the pipeline as well as the parts necessary to build it. 

Pipelines could be upgraded to increase capacity, or add transfer of additional resources not included in the original construction, like electricity, etc.  Maybe transfer of solids would require it be moved in conveyor belts in the pipe, or as a slurry with water with separators required on the receiving end or something.  Maybe an option to just keep it simple and let any resource move through the line sacrificing realism.  There should be an electrical cost associated with mass/second moved or similar

An additional benefit to pipelines would be a refueling depot far enough away from the main ISRU base to prevent having the main base loading and unpacking when landing tankers came in for fuel or other resources

Edited August 24, 2021 by darthgently

[shdwlrd]

Not a bad idea. It's a more grounded idea compared to the rail based transport of resources suggested in the other posts. The hard thing to get past is that there will be automated resource transfers. I don't think the background resource transfers will only include ground to orbit or orbit to orbit transfers between stations. For the background resource transfer to be completely effective, it wouldn't matter where the bases or colonies are located. Even if both the transfer points are on the ground on the same body.

On the other hand, it would eventually remove the need for cargo based rovers on planets if you are willing to spend the necessary resources to construct it and the time to plan it out. It also can fit into the whole automatic transfer of resources on the same body beyond using crafts to transfer everything.

Ok, I'm torn. I think this idea is worthy for the devs to make note of.

Edited August 24, 2021 by shdwlrd
errors between brain and keyboard

[darthgently]

I like the idea of required regular inspections and repair, perhaps somewhat automated, of any pipeline, rail line, or any craft involved in the upcoming background resource transfers.  And to the degree to which the inspections are not performed break-downs could occur.  So inspection rovers and repair crawlers and stuff might be fun.  I would prefer the inspections were somewhat automated such that the player just makes sure a rover and personnel are available and sets up a schedule.  It would cost to inspect, but if done at the right frequency much cheaper than a break-down kind of thing.  It would be nice to have some realism thrown into the automation though.  You land at a base intending to "borrow" the rover for some science only to be informed it is 250km away on a pipeline inspection according to the schedule you set. Ha!

Edited August 24, 2021 by darthgently

[Space Kerbalisation Tech]

Great idea! This would definitely make large scale mining and isru outposts much better

BTW when i first read the topic of this page i thought it would be stuff like rail/tube based surface to orbit mass accelerator, like a big orbital cannon, which would probably also be a cool idea to be implemented in ksp2 

[jimmymcgoochie]

At what point does KSP2 become Dyson Sphere Program/Satisfactory/Factorio/etc.? Connecting up different production and consumption sites should be left to an automated system to manage, not a manual system that needs to be monitored and maintained while your attention could be elsewhere.

[AtomicTech]

Pipelines to transport fuel/other liquid resources would really help with the milk runs!

[shdwlrd]

12 hours ago, darthgently said:

I like the idea of required regular inspections and repair, perhaps somewhat automated, of any pipeline, rail line, or any craft involved in the upcoming background resource transfers.

That's not really necessary. It's just busy work which doesn't fit into the theme of KSP too well.

6 hours ago, jimmymcgoochie said:

At what point does KSP2 become Dyson Sphere Program/Satisfactory/Factorio/etc.? Connecting up different production and consumption sites should be left to an automated system to manage, not a manual system that needs to be monitored and maintained while your attention could be elsewhere.

Once you have to take a raw resource deliver it somewhere; refine it to a finished product and deliver somewhere else. You have a very basic version of the games you mentioned. Now if KSP2 doesn't go overboard with the whole resource processing chain and delivery mechanics, I don't think KSP2 will have a DSP, Factorio feel to it. 

I do like the idea of creating the logistical connections manually. That way you can create an efficient logistics network instead of the weird nonsensical connections that a truly automated can make.

Edited August 24, 2021 by shdwlrd

[darthgently]

7 hours ago, Space Kerbalisation Tech said:

Great idea! This would definitely make large scale mining and isru outposts much better

BTW when i first read the topic of this page i thought it would be stuff like rail/tube based surface to orbit mass accelerator, like a big orbital cannon, which would probably also be a cool idea to be implemented in ksp2 

I find that part count ends up being the real limiter on my game.  I can only build so much before it all goes to kraken at some point.  That was definitely a big motivation for simple pipelines; to get part count down in a local area while still having some ISRU and other capacity.  I don't see tubes over rovers as surface people movers when populations are as low as they are in the game.  Maybe if a simulated "civilian" kerb population were implemented.  Kind of like NPCs or the workers running around in the editors. 
Pipelines and powerlines are real and mature technology for moving resources so I think we will actually see them on the Moon and Mars in a handful of decades

20 minutes ago, shdwlrd said:

That's not really necessary. It's just busy work which doesn't fit into the theme of KSP too well.

Once you have to take a raw resource deliver it somewhere; refine it to a finished product and deliver somewhere else. You have a very basic version of the games you mentioned. Now if KSP2 doesn't go overboard with the whole resource processing chain and delivery mechanics, I don't think KSP2 will have a DSP, Factorio feel to it. 

I do like the idea of creating the logistical connections manually. That way you can create an efficient logistics network instead of the weird nonsensical connections that a truly automated can make.

The inspections would be automated, as I wrote.  It would be an expense and would make the equipment involved less available for other things.  You wouldn't be driving the inspection route manually.  But having a sane inspection cycle would stave off failures.  It could be a difficulty setting so people can play as they wish

[shdwlrd]

31 minutes ago, darthgently said:

The inspections would be automated, as I wrote.  It would be an expense and would make the equipment involved less available for other things.  You wouldn't be driving the inspection route manually.  But having a sane inspection cycle would stave off failures.  It could be a difficulty setting so people can play as they wish

Then why even mention inspections if they are going played away with automation? If you're thinking there will be random failures in KSP2 there won't be. Much like KSP1, everything will work unless you "the player" engineers in a failure point.

[darthgently]

20 minutes ago, shdwlrd said:

Then why even mention inspections if they are going played away with automation? If you're thinking there will be random failures in KSP2 there won't be. Much like KSP1, everything will work unless you "the player" engineers in a failure point.

The player would set up the schedules, the actual activity would be automated.  Maybe a good mod will introduce the reality of parts wearing and failing.  It would be a nice addition to stock though.  In my opinion.  Thanks for disagreeing with me, it helped me consider more aspects of the idea

[shdwlrd]

5 hours ago, darthgently said:

The player would set up the schedules, the actual activity would be automated.  Maybe a good mod will introduce the reality of parts wearing and failing.  It would be a nice addition to stock though.  In my opinion.  Thanks for disagreeing with me, it helped me consider more aspects of the idea

That's the point of a good discussion, it can foster other ideas.  

If you want to simulate an upkeep costs and such, as you suggested, you need some amount of resources to operate it. Nothing more. I'm seeing pipelines to be handy when the distance is too close for planes/lifters but too far for rovers to be a long term solution. The colony will have to be large enough to afford the construction and upkeep to utilize it.

I'm pretty sure someone will recreate Dang it for KSP2. So if you want to play with random failures, you can.

[Pthigrivi]

On 8/24/2021 at 2:51 PM, darthgently said:

 Thanks for disagreeing with me, it helped me consider more aspects of the idea

This statement right here is why this place has become one of more wholesome places on the internet. And love the pipeline idea btw. 

[darthgently]

On 8/24/2021 at 9:15 PM, shdwlrd said:

That's the point of a good discussion, it can foster other ideas.  

If you want to simulate an upkeep costs and such, as you suggested, you need some amount of resources to operate it. Nothing more. I'm seeing pipelines to be handy when the distance is too close for planes/lifters but too far for rovers to be a long term solution. The colony will have to be large enough to afford the construction and upkeep to utilize it.

I'm pretty sure someone will recreate Dang it for KSP2. So if you want to play with random failures, you can.

I like the idea of the build time being based on number and rank of engineers stationed among both ends, but if that were rolled into your "amount of resources", then no issue.  As far as enough resources to operate it, then it should be just like ISRU bases running out of electrical charge or overheating; it just goes dormant until resources or proper conditions become available again then resume automagically.

Dang is great, but I wish it were rolled into the stock higher difficulty levels.

[shdwlrd]

4 hours ago, darthgently said:

I like the idea of the build time being based on number and rank of engineers stationed among both ends

That's one way to look at it, or it can be done by distance. Say X amount of time and resources/km or 10km. Possibly being augmented by skilled labor.

4 hours ago, darthgently said:

As far as enough resources to operate it, then it should be just like ISRU bases running out of electrical charge or overheating; it just goes dormant until resources or proper conditions become available again then resume automagically.

That can work or you can have the resource flow slow to a trickle to show that there is pressure and resources in the line. Actually, that would only work on the receiving end. On the sending end, the resource flow would stop completely.

Overall, the real question is how complicated is too complicated before it becomes so unwieldy that the typical user won't use it or the devs don't want add the features.

Edited August 27, 2021 by shdwlrd
Complete sentences are a good thing

[darthgently]

8 hours ago, shdwlrd said:

That's one way to look at it, or it can be done by distance. Say X amount of time and resources/km or 10km. Possibly being augmented by skilled labor.

 

Yes, my OP outlined distance, number and skill level of engineers