Worried about future of Space Travel

[Aescwulf]

Lately I'm starting to get worried about the future of space travel. Because in recent years we've suddenly seen an explosion of many countries getting independent access ( space race much ) and the USAF having their own unmanned space drone for military use. I'm starting to think that space will end up being weaponized, in my opinion space should be a place without military activity a place for exploration etc.

Recently India revealed their space program and stated that it was made by using money that England gives to the country ( was in the papers I was highly annoyed ).

But what upsets me the most is my countries lack of activity to go into space ( apart from satellites but to me that doesn't count it's needed for communications tv etc ) I was watching a documentary about one mans passion for space travel where barely in his teens he created his first small scale rocket ( like the model rockets you can get but it wasn't a kit he made everything from scratch ) well anyway he came up with this idea in like the early 80s for a single stage to orbit engine well he got government funding for the whole vehicle but after awhile the UK government gave up funding then slapped the classified sticker on the side of it. And even today our government won't fund for a space program because they care about money than innovation and scientific discovery and growth but luckly this one rocket engineer has his own company for making this engine and vehicle for it to go onto after the major powers giving up with SSTO vehicles.

I felt proud when curiosity landed on mars and all of this other stuff and I frequent NASA's website but deep down inside I feel upset because I feel eventually that no one will be able to go to the moon or mars because a country will claim it as their own. And well I'm a bit sentimental about my country ( the land not the people government and politics )

Pointless thread is pointless

[Person012345]

Eh, I don't worry too much because I don't think space will ever become truly useful to us. We're too short-sighted and stupid. Therefore I think it unlikely that we'll be claiming swathes of space, and even if we do I also doubt that spaceflight will ever become affordable within my lifetime anyway so it isn't going to affect me (apart from possibly WWIII).

[Ascensiam]

We still have an amazingly perilous world to fix, and space programs are expensive, i like your way of thinking and i agree, but i also know how many meals can be funded with the budget needed for a space program. Sometimes raw statistics and real-life situations are boring and generally unfair, this is why we should fix this first.

We will never give up the quest for space, it can only be delayed.

[Nikolai]

We still have an amazingly perilous world to fix

A robust space program gives us more chances to get it right.

That doesn't have to be as mercenary as it sounds. A common complaint from the environmentalist camp is that mankind is the only species that soils its own nest (with pollution and such). As long as we remain Earth-bound, we don't have a choice. If we have the robust means to get into space and set up there, we can move all the pollution-creating industries and disease-research facilities and chemical plants and whatever other hazardous things we do off-planet. We may never avail ourselves of that opportunity, but at least we could give ourselves the opportunity.

It's also foolhardy to put all our eggs in one basket. If we wait until the place we are is perfect before moving elsewhere, we may never gain the insight needed to learn from our mistakes (we've learned a lot about how planets work through comparison and contrast); and since perfection is a subjective measure, that sort of thinking dooms us to starvation from within.

and space programs are expensive

Not compared to a lot of things societies do. It's enlightening to compare how much Americans spend on, say, ice cream every year and compare it to the annual spending on their space program. Or movies, for that matter. Why does no one raise a fuss over how much we spend on entertainment, but get squeamish around space program budgets -- especially considering the return to the society for each?

but i also know how many meals can be funded with the budget needed for a space program

How about the amount of meals that could be funded with the amount we spend on luxuries like cosmetics?

There is a future return on expanding our horizons that is not easily measured in terms of dollars and cents; our technical people gain new insight into things when they solve tough problems, and our collective know-how increases. Plus, it's not as if the money we spend on the space program just leaves the society. It's spent here on Earth (where else are we going to spend it?), paying the salaries of engineers and technicians and scientists and custodians and everyone else involved in the effort.

Sometimes raw statistics and real-life situations are boring and generally unfair, this is why we should fix this first.

I think treating this like an either/or question is overly simplistic. Great societies can do more than one thing at a time. Why shouldn't we try to fix our problems and have a robust space program? (Here's a secret: We're human and will always make mistakes and will never fix all of the problems we create. Why should we have to kowtow to some arbitrary standard before we strive to do better things?)

We will never give up the quest for space, it can only be delayed.

And there's where we differ. There is no good reason to delay. Explore in a measured and sane way -- there's obviously a balance here -- but it's a profoundly deep mistake to stop completely. The idea that we need to solve our problems before trying to do great things is somewhat arbitrary and downright detrimental, as history shows us over and over.

For example: China decided to stop exploring in the late fifteenth century, preferring to burn their ships in the harbor (literally!) and attempt to fix their own problems. When they stopped growing, they ended up stagnating and declining, and lost occupation of the New World to people who decided to set up camp. Why is it responsible to restrict the options available to our great-great-grandchildren as we ignore lessons like these?

[Nikolai]

We still have an amazingly perilous world to fix

A robust space program gives us more chances to get it right.

That doesn't have to be as mercenary as it sounds. A common complaint from the environmentalist camp is that mankind is the only species that soils its own nest (with pollution and such). As long as we remain Earth-bound, we don't have a choice. If we have the robust means to get into space and set up there, we can move all the pollution-creating industries and disease-research facilities and chemical plants and whatever other hazardous things we do off-planet. We may never avail ourselves of that opportunity, but at least we could give ourselves the opportunity.

It's also foolhardy to put all our eggs in one basket. If we wait until the place we are is perfect before moving elsewhere, we may never gain the insight needed to learn from our mistakes (we've learned a lot about how planets work through comparison and contrast); and since perfection is a subjective measure, that sort of thinking dooms us to starvation from within.

and space programs are expensive

Not compared to a lot of things societies do. It's enlightening to compare how much Americans spend on, say, ice cream every year and compare it to the annual spending on their space program. Or movies, for that matter. Why does no one raise a fuss over how much we spend on entertainment, but get squeamish around space program budgets -- especially considering the return to the society for each?

but i also know how many meals can be funded with the budget needed for a space program

How about the amount of meals that could be funded with the amount we spend on luxuries like cosmetics?

There is a future return on expanding our horizons that is not easily measured in terms of dollars and cents; our technical people gain new insight into things when they solve tough problems, and our collective know-how increases. Plus, it's not as if the money we spend on the space program just leaves the society. It's spent here on Earth (where else are we going to spend it?), paying the salaries of engineers and technicians and scientists and custodians and everyone else involved in the effort.

Sometimes raw statistics and real-life situations are boring and generally unfair, this is why we should fix this first.

I think treating this like an either/or question is overly simplistic. Great societies can do more than one thing at a time. Why shouldn't we try to fix our problems and have a robust space program? (Here's a secret: We're human and will always make mistakes and will never fix all of the problems we create. Why should we have to kowtow to some arbitrary standard before we strive to do better things?)

We will never give up the quest for space, it can only be delayed.

And there's where we differ. There is no good reason to delay. Explore in a measured and sane way -- there's obviously a balance here -- but it's a profoundly deep mistake to stop completely. The idea that we need to solve our problems before trying to do great things is somewhat arbitrary and downright detrimental, as history shows us over and over.

For example: China decided to stop exploring in the late fifteenth century, preferring to burn their ships in the harbor (literally!) and attempt to fix their own problems. When they stopped growing, they ended up stagnating and declining, and lost occupation of the New World to people who decided to set up camp. Why is it responsible to restrict the options available to our great-great-grandchildren as we ignore lessons like these?

[AHO]

Eh, I don't worry too much because I don't think space will ever become truly useful to us. We're too short-sighted and stupid. Therefore I think it unlikely that we'll be claiming swathes of space, and even if we do I also doubt that spaceflight will ever become affordable within my lifetime anyway so it isn't going to affect me (apart from possibly WWIII).

Humans are indeed stupid...

[Lezflano1]

If there ever is a WWIII There wont be an victor the world would be plunged into darkness and then there wont be any hope for space travel like michio kaku says in this video

Its nice to know atleast were contributing to the future

[Ataulf]

Developing countries are going up into space for the prestige bonus. Developed countries have no need for prestige.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, letting some non-Westerners go up into space is much more diverse than just Russians and Americans.

[Tupin]

I saw a debate between settling the Earth's oceans versus space colonization. The former's main argument seemed to be "Do you really think we'll move large amounts of people into space?" Obviously, the same could be said for moving everyone to the ocean floor Both are worthy causes, and neither are actually getting enough funding. Space, in particular, is seen as a waste of money while we fight another pointless war over a resource that won't even be viable within a century.

"I feel upset because I feel eventually that no one will be able to go to the moon or mars because a country will claim it as their own."

The Outer Space Treaty says hello.

[vexx32]

So let me get this straight... you're complaining that people who are not from your country are going into space, and you don't like it.

Who gives a damn which country they're from! We're not in the Cold War era anymore, so I see no reason to complain about other countries doing what they want. Space isn't a reserved area, so let them play in it.

[AncientAstronaut]

You're worried about the future of Space Travel? Look up SpaceX. They devised a way to have a fully 100% reusable launch vehicle and spacecraft and it's being tested RIGHT NOW! Elon Musk (CEO) says that if they are successful, buying tickets into orbit may be as common as a plane ticket. I completely believe him. Grasshopper (the lander that brings the stages back to Earth) has had fully successful tests so far. The next mission they're doing is the Dragon spacecraft to the ISS to deliver cargo on October 7th, 2012.

As soon as it is made available (I'm hoping less than 5 years), I will gladly buy a ticket the second I have the money to go to LEO.

[phoenix_ca]

It's my hope that space travel will be, as it certainly has shown itself to be thus far with the ISS, a unifying endeavour. It's something that we share as a species; the borders, territorial disputes, none of that seems to matter in the face of the stark realization of just how small and insignificant we are in relation to not just our own solar system, but the galaxy, and the universe. The scale is immense, and we don't even register.

There are Russians and Americans on the ISS, two nations that were bitterly divided between each other just a few decades ago, now bound together in the common purpose of scientific endeavour, discovery, and exploration.

I think that the tentative treaties we've made banning weaponisation of space are the first steps in shedding our intolerance of each other. Even war now seems to be less and less justified by developed nations on nationalistic grounds. It wasn't "we're going to invade Iraq because we are a greater nation and deserve to do so" it was "well ****e, things are really messed-up there, these people seem to be oppressed, and we should go there to spread the ideals of freedom". (Note that I'm talking about justification here, not the real reasons and motivations behind it.) I doubt hard-line nationalism the likes of WWII to justify a global conflict would fly very well; there seems to me to be far too much freedom of information via the Internet to allow it (and this is but one of the positive reasons for maintaining this information flow on the internet as it is, and very strongly fighting against attempts to limit it).

Naturally, for several of these reasons, I am concerned about China. However, I hope less that "they'll come to see that we're right" and more that we can find common ground through which we can pursue our mutual goals of bettering ourselves and our societies. Space exploration is a wonderful place to do this, as it is something truly common to our species. (Several partners of the ISS wish to invite China's participation, but current US law prevents them from collaborating with China; I for one would welcome China's participation. I'd love for them to join us on the common venture of space exploration and scientific discovery.)

[Deek of Rocketry]

Really, really cool video. It gives me a lot to think about

[KleptoKat]

Who wants to build our own civilization free of hunger and disease and stupidness? Anyone with me? We can rent a few hundred acres in the Canadian northern area, and eventually take over the rest of Canada, and the states, and eventually the world with our awesomeness? Our military could consist of a bean on a stick and we could go around hugging people. Give everyone what they need so long as they wanted to go into space and love each other? Sounds like a plan.

Anyone with me?

[Czman007]

People will always want to explore new places, it is in their nature. Though we may move away from public space programs, private companies will soon take their place. It is the law of supply and demand, as long as people want to go to space, some company will take people there.

[zapy97]

no ithink do to the current events the world will be destroyed by radical muslims, i post this meaning no offence to any people who follow the beliefs of islam but in a way one bad apple ruins the bunch so i am fearful of the middle east, if there will be a world war 3 that is where it starts,most likely with isreal at the heart having to defend itself alone because the UN wont do anything, the US is crippled and weak so i think that the greatest threat to spaceflight is the radical terrorists in the middle east who believe you need to follow there rules or you get the "Wack-Wack" treatment, i am not saying that all islamics are bad but there are some who believe that, me i am personally a christian, not a cathlic, (these are two completely different things). but i think that if we had a more stable middle east where people weren't being gunned down for there beliefs we would have a better world.

[Person012345]

no ithink do to the current events the world will be destroyed by radical muslims, i post this meaning no offence to any people who follow the beliefs of islam but in a way one bad apple ruins the bunch so i am fearful of the middle east, if there will be a world war 3 that is where it starts,most likely with isreal at the heart having to defend itself alone because the UN wont do anything, the US is crippled and weak so i think that the greatest threat to spaceflight is the radical terrorists in the middle east who believe you need to follow there rules or you get the "Wack-Wack" treatment, i am not saying that all islamics are bad but there are some who believe that, me i am personally a christian, not a cathlic, (these are two completely different things). but i think that if we had a more stable middle east where people weren't being gunned down for there beliefs we would have a better world.

"One bad apple ruins the bunch" is a bit rich coming from a christian.

[sneakeypete]

Recently India revealed their space program and stated that it was made by using money that England gives to the country ( was in the papers I was highly annoyed ).

Money is just money. Despite what they may say, the physical money you give them isn't really being piped to a specific program. Not unless you're buying rockets for them and giving them the rocket etc.

[phoenix_ca]

"One bad apple ruins the bunch" is a bit rich coming from a christian.

I stopped reading when I realised the post lacked adequate periods. O.o

[Person012345]

I stopped reading when I realised the post lacked adequate periods. O.o

I read it all as one sentence. I find it amusing that he specifies that "catholics are completely different from christians". Sounds like he's going the no true scotsman route.

[zapy97]

I read it all as one sentence. I find it amusing that he specifies that "catholics are completely different from christians". Sounds like he's going the no true scotsman route.

the thing is they are it is kinda like how in islam it has the hitites, and the shiites, but catholics have different beliefs like there has to be a pope, or you have to interpet it in the way the pope does, or you get excommunicated. so basically i was telling the truth catholics are differant from christians, but we just share a similar belief that jesus christ was ressurrected and is the son of god...

and dont even get me started on Mormons

[Person012345]

the thing is they are it is kinda like how in islam it has the hitites, and the shiites, but catholics have different beliefs like there has to be a pope, or you have to interpet it in the way the pope does, or you get excommunicated. so basically i was telling the truth catholics are differant from christians, but we just share a similar belief that jesus christ was ressurrected and is the son of god...

and dont even get me started on Mormons

They're still christians. That description you gave is what a christian is. Saying they're not "christians" is a no true scotsman fallacy. I'm sure there are those who would say you aren't a christian because you don't think the same things they do. You can't brand Islam because of a minority if you aren't willing to have your own beliefs be branded based on a minority yourself.

[Warshawski]

the US is crippled and weak

You do realize we still have the most powerful economy and the most powerful military in the world, right? Despite our recession, China still can't outdo us. (Yet)

"Crippled and weak" are two adjectives I would NOT apply to the US.

Back on topic...

I think the future of manned spaceflight lies in the corporations like SpaceX who are gambling on huge profits. They'll make space travel affordable- and everything else will follow that.

[Nikolai]

I think the future of manned spaceflight lies in the corporations like SpaceX who are gambling on huge profits. They'll make space travel affordable- and everything else will follow that.

I think we need to reach a tipping point -- where the cost required to launch everything you need for whatever you're doing (space hotels and their staff come to mind) all at one go every time you need it exceeds the cost of just leaving some stuff there and supporting them in situ. Once you've reached that point, you have a toehold in space, especially if some people need to work and live there continuously to make it work. The market has to support both the thing you're leaving in space and getting to it periodically.

ISS is partly that; I'm not convinced that the market would have supported its creation on its own, though.

[Aescwulf]

I've been dreading looking at my own thread due to possible slate comments. But there are good comments here. I had a look at SpaceX and for a company that's been around since 2002 they seem to be doing really well. At first I had high hopes for virgin galactic until they released how much it will cost for a 6 min sub-orbital flight ( 200,000 dollars ).

But for entertainment like films, computer games etc most of the time they cost more to make than to launch a vehicle into space. But I think it may seem expensive because its coming straight out of government ( tax payers ) pockets and into a machine that its life span is roughly one mission. I guess this is why we need STTO vehicles but nothing would look as magnificent as a Rocket launching into space.