Please, give the community KSP1's source code

[Lisias]

52 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I know that Steamboat Willy was one of the first cartoons to do sound well, which may have had a little to do with it.

Your knowledge falls short of your own expectations.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Mickey-Mouse

People didn't made Disney an Empire because Walt Disney was a nice guy, people made Disney what it is because they loved what Walt Disney did, being Mickey one of them - perhaps the most famous cartoon characters of all times.

If you fail to understand the most basic of the branding concepts, I'm afraid there's not much you can add to this discussion other than noise.

https://www.thebrandingjournal.com/2024/01/the-power-of-mascots-brand-narratives/

 

52 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Besides, realistic spaceflight is a niche market, as flight simulators are. Are we to think that Microsoft Flight Simulator and X-plane need cartoon mascots to do well?

Well... Go to youtube, and see how many Kerbals videos are available.

Now do the same for the pilot avatars used by MSFS and X-Plane.

See how many on them have short-movies. How many of them are being playing by kids wishing to learn STEM, how many of them were used on Educational Institutes.

See how many of them have something like this:

Did you noticed the 1.3 Million views? On this single video? Had any Flight Simulator Avatar ever sent to Space, like Jebediah and Snoopy?

It's precisely because KSP is a niche game that Kerbals are important to it. There's no KSP without Kerbals.

And even if this Franchise dies, whatever will end up filling the niche will be forever only a KSP successor. No matter what they do, they will be forever defined by what KSP was in the past, and not by their own merits in the present.

• "Look, better graphics than KSP!!"
• "Look, less bugs than KSP!!"
• "Look, we made default in the game what KSP needed to have add'ons for!"
• "Look, we have more players online than KSP!!"

Do you see a pattern? Even if someone manages to replace KSP, they will merely taking a place that belonged to someone else, and not a place they conquered themselves.

Forever second place.

Edited March 22 by Lisias
Entertaining grammars made slightely less entertaining...

[Bej Kerman]

20 minutes ago, Lisias said:

Your knowledge falls short of your own expectations.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Mickey-Mouse

People didn't made Disney an Empire because Walt Disney was a nice guy, people made Disney what it is because they loved what Walt Disney did, being Mickey one of them - perhaps the most famous cartoon characters of all times.

And you do not think that's because it was a technological milestone, I'm guessing.

21 minutes ago, Lisias said:

Well... Go to youtube, and see how many Kerbals videos are available.

Now do the same for the pilot avatars used by MSFS and X-Plane.

See how many on them have short-movies. How many of them are being playing by kids wishing to learn STEM, how many of them were used on Educational Institutes.

See how many of them have something like this:

Did you noticed the 1.3 Million views? On this single video? Had any Flight Simulator Avatar ever sent to Space, like Jebediah and Snoopy?

It's precisely because KSP is a niche game that Kerbals are important to it. There's no KSP without Kerbals.

Is your point that MFS2020 is a failure because search results about it don't yield mascots?

For the record, X-Plane doesn't have avatar customisation. Furthermore, I'm curious why simmers would care about having avatars in the first place.

36 minutes ago, Lisias said:

And even if this Franchise dies, whatever will end up filling the niche will be forever only a KSP successor. No matter what they do, they will be forever defined by what KSP was in the past, and not by their own merits in the present.

• "Look, better graphics than KSP!!"
• "Look, less bugs than KSP!!"
• "Look, we made default in the game what KSP needed to have add'ons for!"
• "Look, we have more players online than KSP!!"

Do you see a pattern? Even if someone manages to replace KSP, they will merely taking a place that belonged to someone else, and not a place they conquered themselves.

Forever second place.

And?

[Lisias]

KSP is by far the most successful game in its genre, par to Doom, Quake and Half Life (to some extent, of course).

Being niche or not, KSP is  a milestone on gaming and it would be a shame to let go abandoned into oblivion due bit rot that unavoidably plagues Software in our modern days.

With development essentially staled, the best outcome to the Franchise is to KSP¹ to become Open Source allowing the Community to legally keep it ongoing as the years pass by, in the exact same way it was done with Doom, Quake, Half Life and, most recently, Team Fortress 2!

Allowing the Source to be Open will keep the game healthy and, believe it or not, protect the IP - most people are able to play the game as the time goes by and hardware changes, less likely it will be forgotten and abandoned.

Some of the heaviest hitters on Steam are open source now! Some of these games have 30 years already? What would be (one of) the secrets for such longevity?

https://steamcharts.com/cmp/440,4000,220,379720

One of them is, surely, the Source Code being available to anyone willing to toy with it. And to fix their problems, and to port it to modern platforms. All of that without infringing any Copyright, and this is also the key: most people don't want to go "underground" in order to play a game!

And besides not being possible to compare KSP¹ with the best heavy hitters of all time, it still performs very well with some of them:

https://steamcharts.com/cmp/379720,220200#All

Interesting enough, something happened last week that kicked Doom way higher then KSP¹ by the first time since 2020.

In a way or another, KSP¹ is still valuable as a Franchise, being able to outperform even some very known and established Franchises on Steam. It's a viable Franchise, and IMHO should not be abandoned to be handled by Black Schemes. Kerbals deserve better.

Repeating ad nauseaum the same arguments is... well... nauseating... so I will instead link the reader to my past posts about the subject:

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/search/?q=Source&quick=1&item=212694&type=forums_topic&author=Lisias&sortby=newest&search_and_or=or

And given the current status quo,  releasing the Source can be even condition sine qua non to a surviving and healthy KSP modding Scene, as explained on this post.

 

Edited March 23 by Lisias
Entertaining grammars made slightely less entertaining...

[roxik0]

@Lisias I will agree 100% with you till KSA was announced. Now I think they will be a big competition between KSP 2.X and KSA.  however KSP still have potential especially when(if)T2 sold franchize  why?

Today for T2 KSP is a failure.. they spend a lot of many on sequel and had to abandon project. And always if they will go with continuation they will have this -X millions in their excel. 

For new publisher who will buy it it will be a new investment with new budget.. however they need to stick to original plan of T2. to make better but original KSP.. not go to much on big plans and vision they cannot deliver.. in KSP world everything else will be done by community and what community needs is good parts + good framework. 
Also the new KSP need to find a new however easy to skip challenges maybe more into tycoon part of space program(better contracts a goal based founding and possible to customize launchpads)  or maybe into engine creation it's super interesting topic. For sure not interplannetary bases it was IMHO strange idea and on building based games we have to many competitors like No One Sky to simply name  one.

However I know that making success like KSP will not be easy..  but I hope that or KSP 2.X or KSA will deliver and we once again will be able go into every 3 months changes into framework and need to rebuild all mods for next game

 

[Lisias]

6 hours ago, roxik0 said:

@Lisias I will agree 100% with you till KSA was announced.

Please understand that this thread is about releasing the Source for KSP¹, KSP2 is not part of the deal and KSA is completely off-topic.

I just don't care about KSA on this thread.

 

6 hours ago, roxik0 said:

Today for T2 KSP is a failure.. they spend a lot of many on sequel and had to abandon project. And always if they will go with continuation they will have this -X millions in their excel.

T2 is not here anymore. There're these new kids in the block, Haveli and the ex-Annapurna Gang , that footed some money on the whole P.D. , hired the "Gang" (literally yanking them from Annapurna Interactive - the whole staff!) and now are figuring out how to make money from what they have in hands, KSP included.

 

6 hours ago, roxik0 said:

however they need to stick to original plan of T2.

HELL, NO!! They do what T2 was doing, they will get the results T2 got.

 

6 hours ago, roxik0 said:

in KSP world everything else will be done by community and what community needs is good parts + good framework.

Exactly, and, to achieving that, having the Source code available will be hugely beneficial - and there's the legal problem now.

See this post for datails, but TL;DR: decompiling was already against the EULA but now it was criminalized and, worst, changing in memory bytecode is now formally a Copyright Infringement in USA, and anyone doing it (theoretically, including users) are since August 2024 subject to a Copyright lawsuit in the same sense it happened in past when RIAA gone predatory to even kids listening MP3 in their homes.

Things keep going this way, KSP¹ will be reduced to a Warez sub-culture, where Educational Institutes and Space Agencies will do whatever they can to erase their presence from the Scene (no Company wants to be associated to illegal stuff) and the main source for modding will be the Dark Web - kiss baby bye-bye to CurseForge, SpaceDock et all because they would be violating their Country's laws by publishing "warez".

Keep in mind that the tragic drama started by RIAA in the past was using Napster as conduit, Napster users were systematically tracked down and sued using a thing called "vicarious copyright infringement" - no one will be safe from it.

 

6 hours ago, roxik0 said:

However I know that making success like KSP will not be easy..  but I hope that or KSP 2.X or KSA will deliver and we once again will be able go into every 3 months changes into framework and need to rebuild all mods for next game

Again, I don't care about KSP2 and KSA on this thread. No matter what they will deliver, I want KSP¹ to be still available and moddable. Safely moddable by anyone, and not only by some people hidding behind nicks that can go rogue at any time without consequences - essentially, the development model we have on Warez.

I will say again: KSP¹, since August 2024, is risking being reduced to a Warez Scene where only rogue 3rd parties will be able to make some money at expenses of the Scene. Things are risking going that way, it's really as bad is it can get.

This crap will contaminate the whole niche - make no mistake, the splash damage will hurt everybody, including KSA that decided to formally hire one professional that openly does exactly what the lawsuit won by Bungie says are Copyright Infringements now and used this material on KSA.

Remember the Berne Convention, and how Copyright owners have 70 years to do something, essentially putting an axe over KSA's neck for life, to be set in motion as soon as KSA makes any money,

Edited Sunday at 06:26 PM by Lisias
Hit "Save" too soon

[roxik0]

Generally I agree about that it will be nice to have KSP source as a developer I would love to see how it's done at some places .  

But the true is having source can still be under license with will prevent you to do a lot of stuff.. So it's more licensing problem not having or not having a code.. 

In my post I was more about topic "KSP as valuable franchize" and IMHO from publisher point of view today it will not get benefits to open it's source. However totally is worth to keep our moding scene "happy" and secure.. and then after release KSP 2.X publish original code of KSP.

Cause now Code of KSP is probably only bigger valuable think they got. 





 

[Lisias]

2 hours ago, roxik0 said:

But the true is having source can still be under license with will prevent you to do a lot of stuff.. So it's more licensing problem not having or not having a code..

You couldn't be more wrong. Right NOW we are in the situation you describe, and anyone telling you otherwise is misinformed at best, and I will decline to further comment at worst.

 

2 hours ago, roxik0 said:

In my post I was more about topic "KSP as valuable franchize" and IMHO from publisher point of view today it will not get benefits to open it's source. However totally is worth to keep our moding scene "happy" and secure..

It's exactly the other way around. To keep the KSP¹ Modding Scene secure, people would need to have access to the KSP¹ source code - otherwise only copyright infringers would be able to keep the modding scene ongoing - and this is as hairy as it can be.

If only more people that lived the RIAA drama could step ahead and help educating the youngers about that era.

 

2 hours ago, roxik0 said:

and then after release KSP 2.X publish original code of KSP.

Why? Who would benefit from this, besides the copyright infringers?

 

2 hours ago, roxik0 said:

Cause now Code of KSP is probably only bigger valuable think they got.

The code doesn't worth squat. It's outdated, with a serious case of bit rotting.

The IP is where the real value of the thing is. No one will be able to publish a "new KSP¹" with the source code, at least legally. And we are already on the illegal status around here, the Franchise is already being undervalued because everybody and the kitchen's sink is being able to use their IP to earn money or promote alternate products without paying them a dime!

What you fail to understand is that we are already on the worst possible situation, where copyright infringers can do whatever they want and the only ones with their hands tied are the ones not willing to dive on a Warez kind of a Scene.

See what happened with Doom: had Doom III had any problems by Doom I and II source code been published?

Had Quake Arena failed because Quake 1 to 3 source code were published? In a very permissive license, by the way?

Did you know that Tomb Raider is being re-release in Physical Media again? And that the Publisher had hired he dude that created and maintained Open Lara?

Your argument, unfortunately, lacks Real Life™ evidences, while mine have plenty.

---- POST EDIT ---

See KSP2: where it's the value, on the crappy source code, or on the Soundtrack? The sound effects? The tutorials?

You can rip the code from the product, write new code and it will be KSP2 but working fine this time.

You remove the Kerbals, the sounds, visuals, music and tutorials, what you get? Do you see what I mean now?

THIS is where the value of a Franchise is. Code is the glue that keeps everything working together. It's a very important part of the game, but people don't buy games due the glue, they buy games due the IP.

A bad code will screw your product after the sale, but a bad IP will prevent the sale to happen at first place, rendering the code useless no matter how good it is.

Damn, DOOM I is on par with KSP on concurrent players on Steam right now, and last week had a peek at least twice the size!

https://steamcharts.com/cmp/379720,220200#3m

And it's a franchise with 3 times the age! Do you think releasing the original Doom source code damaged it?

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 09:15 PM by Lisias
POST EDIT

[roxik0]

The IP is Code + Assets not only Code and not only Assets and IMHO people buy bought.. problem of KSP 2 is that KSP 2 have no value exactly because bad code not because bad animations or music.

Your examples are about games with have sequels and you are right nobody cares that Doom 1 SRC was published because publishers already got money from Doom 2 and then from Doom 3. simply Doom same with Quake this games got revenue got sequels and then got SRC published.. KSP does not have this.. and also if new studio plans to do something then publishing of code today can speedup their competitors.. I think in KSP there for sure is couple of nice ideas people can reimplement in their games. 

And here is exactly where I see  a problem for IP owners to publishing SRC today.. there is lack of new product/sequel/ideas how to get money from IP currently, and this is bad.

As I said earlier I really would love to see it happened one day. And as you said better sooner than later.. and for sure moders need to have some security as well.  So I keep my finger closed that this idea will succes one day :). 







 

[Lisias]

14 hours ago, roxik0 said:

The IP is Code + Assets not only Code and not only Assets and IMHO people buy bought.. problem of KSP 2 is that KSP 2 have no value exactly because bad code not because bad animations or music

But only the Assets have real value. The Source Code doesn't worth that much at this point (if at all)- had you forgot that anyone not caring about copyright infringements already have access to it?

The Genie is out of the bottle, KSP¹ source code is already in the wild to anyone that don't care about legalities. Where is the worth of such code if no one is defending it?

I'm proposing that legally releasing KSP¹ to anyone willing to toy with it will give to the current IP owner way more value that allowing only the copyright infringers to do it.

There're many technically skilled people that would love to dig this code and hunt bugs, but are not going to do it as very few people wants to cope with a Warez subculture (what do you think it would happen to a NASA engineer if they are caught in copyright infringement?) - that it's what one need to do right now to access the Source Code by illegal (since August 2024, when Bungie won the lawsuit I mention ad nauseaum) practices.

Please note this is not a moral stand, but a legal one. Copyrights are serious business, and anyone ignoring the laws are jeopardizing the modding Scene.

 

14 hours ago, roxik0 said:

Your examples are about games with have sequels and you are right nobody cares that Doom 1 SRC was published because publishers already got money from Doom 2 and then from Doom 3. simply Doom same with Quake this games got revenue got sequels and then got SRC published.. KSP does not have this.. and also if new studio plans to do something then publishing of code today can speedup their competitors.. I think in KSP there for sure is couple of nice ideas people can reimplement in their games.

You completely missed the point. Why Doom Eternal is selling nowdays? Due some fantastic and marvelous Source Code that only they are capable to write? Nonsense.

People are buying and playing Doom Eternal because the Doom Franchise have a hell of an appeal. And one of the reasons this Franchise survived very well the decades is because people just don't stop making free advertisings by porting Doom to anything that have a screen, no matter the size.

Guess what else have a hell of an appeal? Half Life. Did you now that VALVe recently released the Team Fortress 2 source code on the Source Engine Dev Kit? Expect the TF2 Community to hunt down all that pesky bugs and security flaws, and this is probably the reason the TF2 skyrocketed to 250K concurrent players when the announce was made in 2023

And since TF2's source code was already (and illegally) leaked in 2016, what VALVe lost with the move?

KSP¹ and even KSP2 'source code' is already "leaked". What P.D. have to loose by legally releasing the Source Code, since it's already "leaked"?

Why allowing people to legally read the Source Code would devaluate the Franchise, while allowing copyright infringers to do it would not?

 

14 hours ago, roxik0 said:

And here is exactly where I see  a problem for IP owners to publishing SRC today.. there is lack of new product/sequel/ideas how to get money from IP currently, and this is bad.

What suggests they should consider exploring new possibilities for whatever they have in hands now.

It's clear for me that if they keep doing things the way TTWO did, they will get the same results.

It's time to reevaluate some positions and talk to different people.

 

14 hours ago, roxik0 said:

And as you said better sooner than later.. and for sure moders need to have some security as well.

Yes, "security" is the key factor. Even by Haveli being benevolent nowadays, they can decide to jump ship and offload the IP to someone else that my decide not to be.

When money starts to walk, usually bullets start to fly.

Edited Tuesday at 02:37 PM by Lisias
Better phrasing.

[roxik0]

Quote

Please note this is not a moral stand, but a legal one. Copyrights are serious business, and anyone ignoring the laws are jeopardizing the modding Scene.

But how ignore the law currently? As you said we have license for modding got from previous owner as long as new owner will not forbit it we are with the law not against it.

Quote

Why allowing people to legally read the Source Code would devaluate the Franchise, while allowing copyright infringers to do it would not?

This is notcase I was talking about.. I was talking that all code you are talking about was from games which had continuation so releasing a old source code was not affecting sale of current main product... I didn't hear that Valve make TF3 as open source game :

 

Quote

And here is exactly where I see  a problem for IP owners to publishing SRC today.. there is lack of new product/sequel/ideas how to get money from IP currently, and this is bad.

What suggests they should consider exploring new possibilities for whatever they have in hands now.

It's clear for me that if they keep doing things the way TTWO did, they will get the same results.

It's time to reevaluate some positions and talk to different people.

But t2 didn't do anything wrong they bought IP they ordered a game from PD and PD simply didn;t make it..  Of course they should do stuff differently.
Maybe for example make more DLC's  Maybe use money from such DLC's to refactor old code make it more "Engine" agnostic.. and then when it will be ready change engine and call it KSP 2
Imho they simply go into popular trap of software devs to rewrite instead of refaktor. So they started from begining. and had same problem as KSP at beginning.  However it's not topic on what t2 did wrong.

 

Quote

Yes, "security" is the key factor. Even by Haveli being benevolent nowadays, they can decide to jump ship and offload the IP to someone else that my decide not to be.

Yes I hope Havell will find an idea how to make money from KSP IP and then simply give us code of KSP to make it life forever





 

[Lisias]

On 4/1/2025 at 1:44 PM, roxik0 said:

But how ignore the law currently? As you said we have license for modding got from previous owner as long as new owner will not forbit it we are with the law not against it.

The EULA explicitly forbade reverse engineering and accessing private data, and the law explicit forbids decompiling and changing in memory bytecodes.

Some people around here, since August 2024, lost any protections they had under any possible law they could think no matter where they live - again, Berne Convention.

And it's simple like that.

 

On 4/1/2025 at 1:44 PM, roxik0 said:

This is notcase I was talking about.. I was talking that all code you are talking about was from games which had continuation so releasing a old source code was not affecting sale of current main product...

You are still deluded on a dead-end argument about the source code being the reason people buy games.

Really, it's a moot point. People don't care about Source Code, no matter what your codewarrior friends says. Source Code is a medium, a way to deliver content - and, as such, it's extremely important. But, still, it's not the reason people buy Games. People buy games for the content, and this is not going to be open sourced.

We buy TV sets to watch Movies, we don't buy Movies because we want to use TVs.

KSP¹ source code is pretty old, outdated and unfortunately bit rotting, and right now there's absolutely no way for any KSP 2.x to be published without the competition getting on market first.

The very best chance P.D. have now is to bet on the KSP¹ Modding Scene as a way to keep the Franchise relevant and be able to uphold the increasing competition with the product they are selling now.

There's no next product if the current one dies first.

I will say it again: THERE'S NO NEXT PRODUCT IF THE CURRENT ONE DIES FIRST.

 

On 4/1/2025 at 1:44 PM, roxik0 said:

But t2 didn't do anything wrong they bought IP they ordered a game from PD and PD simply didn;t make it..  Of course they should do stuff differently.

WHAT-THA-HELL???? o.O

May I politely ask to avoid this specific subject again? With all the information being leaked lately, you are dangerously flirting with spin-doctoring. There's absolutely no way TTWO would not be involved on the decision making of a 100M USD game. At very, very, very least, they hired the P.D. staff that promoted the mess, so they are still the ultimate responsibles for the tragedy.

 

On 4/1/2025 at 1:44 PM, roxik0 said:

Maybe for example make more DLC's  Maybe use money from such DLC's to refactor old code make it more "Engine" agnostic.. and then when it will be ready change engine and call it KSP 2

IT'S NOT WORKING.

People are happy with the features they have, or the ones that modders are adding to the game.

What people want is a bug-free gaming experience, and this is exactly what KSP¹ is consistently failing since the Unity 2017 migration. The path to KSP 1.12.5 is littered of corpses, and no one is really cleaning them.

KSP¹ have a terrible case of code-rottentitis, and the current medicine being applied is not only disapproved by FDA, but also currently criminalized. And I'm kindly ignoring the collateral effects.

 

On 4/1/2025 at 1:44 PM, roxik0 said:

and then when it will be ready change engine and call it KSP 2

What just not going to fly if people that made KSP¹ what it still is (besides somewhat battered) leaves the scene.

You are still thinking that KSP¹ Source Code is an asset. Right now, it's a liability, with this Scene dangerously flirting on becoming a Warez subculture.

Even if you would be right about this Source Code being still valuable, such value had just evaporated by the current Copyright Infringing practices that is the norm today. What value have something that any rogue party can use to make money for themself, disregarding the Law, Licences and even Ethics?

As a matter of fact, releasing it as Open Source will probably recover some of the value currently being lost by rogue 3rd parties. At very least, it will allow non rogue 3rd parties to play the same game, leveraging the field into a more P.D. friendly one.

Sometimes I fear you are just not listening/reading what is being told to you. This Scene, right now, is at large incurring in blatant Copyright Infringement -  we are not dealing dealing with an EULA Infringement anymore. Our problem right now are the Penal Code and Courts of Law.

What kind of damage do you think it will happen if all the current mods that relies on in memory bytecode changes are just took down? It's a matter of time until the current hosting services will have their reputation tampered by association with to Infringements practices, including GitHub and GitLab.

Again, we are risking living Naspter all over again. And exactly how do you think this will affect the Franchise?

Even if you would be right (and you aren't) releasing the Source Code as Open Source is now a matter of survival, this Scene needs legal access the Source Code to prevent the whole scene from being criminalized by the (now) rampant Copyright Infringements. If the Source Code is legally available, them its respective binaries are also a Open Source derivative, and we get rid of the problem that currently the code decompiling and in memory bytecode changes are bringing to this Scene.

I will say it again: THERE'S NO NEXT PRODUCT IF THE CURRENT ONE DIES FIRST.

And what keeps KSP¹ alive is the people gathered together on this Community - people that will leave if they fear a Witch Hunt like the Napster one.

TTWO indulged P.D. into trapping themselves on a corner with a ticking bomb in their hands, one that they built themselves.

The current P.D. owners weren't part of that problem, but inherited it and now are the ones that need to disarm the bomb - or just let it explode and deal with the splash damage, I don't know what they intend to do with the Franchise to be frank about.

Edited Wednesday at 07:23 PM by Lisias
Entertaining grammars made slightely less entertaining...

[roxik0]

Quote

People don't care about Source Code

I cannot disagree more.. this whole topic is about Source Code.. So at least some people care about having/not having source code
 

Quote

We buy TV sets to watch Movies, we don't buy Movies because we want to use TVs.

But Source Code is not TV.. Source Code is a movie.. You buy KSP because you want to play game. You cannot play the game without having compiled source code on your computer.

 

Quote

Sometimes I fear you are just not listening/reading what is being told to you. 

No I totally understand why we as community want to have source code, But I 'm also understand   that owner of the game can make decision of not making game open source.

And I don;t understand why In your opinion making game open source will increase a value of IP from owner perspective.  You are using this as some axiomor at least I got such point of view..

 

Quote

 THERE'S NO NEXT PRODUCT IF THE CURRENT ONE DIES FIRST.

Totally agree.. However this product is dead from publisher point of view.

 I hink if community want to get something from IP owners, then  weneeds to show that ok we put on table mutual benefits. for both sides..

Maybe we as community can propose  that "hey we would like to have new DLC where people who will bought it will get source code + proper license to make mods without scare"

 Such proposal probably will be better than poll in this topic with option 

Quote

Not to give! 'cause my corporative serfdom isn't over yet.

I don't think such polls make good ground for conversation with anybody.. 


But anyway we need to wait till new owner will make new EULA because currently is hard event to find who would like to talk with community.

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, roxik0 said:

I cannot disagree more.. this whole topic is about Source Code.. So at least some people care about having/not having source code

There're 371 votes on the poll above, and this thread have about 25 months already.

Now go to Reddit and count how many likes a single Screen Shot gets.

People wants their problems solved, they pay for solutions, not source code.

You and me know how this can backfire horribly, but, still, Users do what Users do. It's up to us to cope with the situation.

 

1 hour ago, roxik0 said:

But Source Code is not TV.. Source Code is a movie.. You buy KSP because you want to play game. You cannot play the game without having compiled source code on your computer

Nope. The "Movie" is the content: missions, Kerbals. music, lore, the savegames. Code is unimportant - what really matters for the user is the user's data, not the code that it runs to generate the data.

Delete all the user's savegames and see for how long they will play the game. 

 

1 hour ago, roxik0 said:

No I totally understand why we as community want to have source code, But I 'm also understand   that owner of the game can make decision of not making game open source.

Of course they can make such a decision! We would not need to pledge for it if they would have no other choice!

Its the very reason for the existence of this thread!

 

1 hour ago, roxik0 said:

And I don;t understand why In your opinion making game open source will increase a value of IP from owner perspective.  You are using this as some axiomor at least I got such point of view..

As I said, you not reading this thread and are rebating only the points I'm making to counter-argue yours. This is leading to a circular arguing that not only is not helping to promote the cause I'm advocating, but will seriously hinder it by burying the proposal into a mountain of empty arguing full of unfunded opinions.

Do you really want to debate about the matter? Read the posts I had published here - or you prefer me to copy and paste all of them again?

I'm afraid you are the one being dogmatic about the matter - I had posted links and evidences and cases of success for 2 years on this thread - while I don't see you publishing anything other than your opinions, none of them with any kind of material to support them.

You are consistently ignoring the most recent (and, by far, the one with the worst consequences) problem right now: blatant Copyright Infringement by 3rd parties, some of them making money with P.D.'s IP without any kind of compensation, as royalties. Now we have even closed source mods advertising the competition using their own game. What's next? Mods with Casino ads?

The value of an IP is directly linked to the ability to defend it from adversarial 3rd parties.

How they intend to sell DLCs if their users are using the money to buy 3rd parties addons? Why allow them to advertise the competition inside their own game? Why let 3rd parties to use their IP to prototype features that will be, so, sold to their users by the competition?

How much worths a Company where everybody make money at their expenses? Would you buy shares from such a Company? I won't.

Now consider the options:

1. Do nothing.
2. Play havoc over the scene, suing everybody so their shareholders (or funders) believe they got back the control of the IP.
3. Open the Source of the KSP¹, allowing anyone to code the same add'ons, detecting and fixing fixes to be used on the next product and leveraging the playfield by allowing the users to get the add'ons they want and modders to do their mods without coping with shady practices that can bite their arses badly later on a Court of Law.

The option 1 is obvious what's happening now, I think. Where this is going? KSP2 is being developed? There's someone trying to talk to Lego so they can finish and publish that game they were developing with them? Is the user base expanding? Their users are buying their DLCs or are using the money to fund copyright infringers?

The option 2 works. It's exactly what Nintendo does, by the way, and Nintendo is hardly a looser in the Game Business. Problem: there will be a nasty backslash from the Scene, the same one that kept KSP¹ afloat for so much time. Losing this audience will impact negatively the rest of the userbase, because essentially people are here to play mods most of the time. But, at least, on the long run they will have a better grasp on protecting their IP and, perhaps, manage to find a buyer to keep it going (as it's improbable that the Franchise would recover while they are on the helm, due the backslash I mentioned - they are not Nintendo, they can't do what Nintendoes and walk without consequences).

Option 3 is my proposal. KSP¹ is a finished product, it's essentially running to its EoL by now. There's no one available to fix the current bugs and protected the Source Code from bit rotting (did you noticed the problems Windows 11 users are getting?) There's no further development in the near future to keep the Franchise in evidence, there's nothing happening at all promoting KSP. There will be no KSP 2.x/3/whatever before the competition (the ones that are using their assets to promote theirs, by the way) hits the market - a situation in which they will surely see their userbase shrinking even more, be due the new game taking users from them, be because modders will abandon the Scene for doing something else, in a nasty self feeding cycle that will render a new installment of the Franchise yet more unlikely.

There're other options? Probably - but I'm not seeing any alternatives with good endings that would not start with Option 2 or 3.

And I think I don't need to explain why I hugely prefer 3.

 

1 hour ago, roxik0 said:

You are using this as some axiomor at least I got such point of view..

Now it's your turn. Please give us your rationale for your arguments. Give examples, use cases, anything. The ball is in your park now.

Make your case for us.

 

1 hour ago, roxik0 said:

 I hink if community want to get something from IP owners, then  weneeds to show that ok we put on table mutual benefits. for both sides.

I think that most of this Community already did that, and for years already.

I agree that the new owners are... well... New on this scene, so they just didn't lived the whole process. But, still, they are the ones in need to catch up, no? We have 25 months of discussion on this very thread, an very rich (most of the time ) source for arguments (cons and pros). I myself had already discussed about possible drawbacks - but that was way before the current drama about Copyrights - this changed everything.

Everybody is more than welcome to read them and to quote old posts to reignite a new debate about the subjects.

 

1 hour ago, roxik0 said:

Maybe we as community can propose  that "hey we would like to have new DLC where people who will bought it will get source code + proper license to make mods without scare"

The community want bugs fixed, and I don't think it is willing to foot more money just to get whatever they already had bought working right (what it was expected to happen on the moment of the purchase).

You see, I think that you really lost the point here: this isn't a Community of Game Developers looking for a job, neither professional game developers willing to invest time and money in a new entrepreneurship. Neither a bunch of masochists willing to work for free - what I doubt would cope well with the DoC at first place.

This is a Community of KSP enthusiasts that for years helped to debug problems and fix bugs at the same time added some content, made by amateurs on their free, spare time.

Modding is made by the Community for the Community.

I really don't think it will be a good idea to try to sell us the privilege of doing free work for them, because if this is where this is going to go, I'm afraid they are going to have a hell of a Reality Check: we are paying customers that like to use our free time modding games, no cheap/free workforce at their disposition to do their work, what to say about paying for doing their work?

If anyone from Haveli is reading this thread, it's with an open heart that I strongly advise: don't go trough this venue, it will end in tears.

 

1 hour ago, roxik0 said:

I don't think such polls make good ground for conversation with anybody..

Context. You are lacking context. This poll mas made in 2023, on a time that P.D. was known to publish games like Outer Worlds, a very tongue-in-cheek humor anti-corporation game...

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 02:52 AM by Lisias
Entertaining grammars made slightely less entertaining...

[roxik0]

Quote

Nope. The "Movie" is the content: missions, Kerbals. music, lore, the savegames. Code is unimportant - what really matters for the user is the user's data, not the code that it runs to generate the data.

Delete all the user's savegames and see for how long they will play the game.  

What savegames have about it? Possibility of saving game is part of source code... you put exactly my point.. they are games without possibility of save The movie is all combined you can have best scenario and actors without good camera work you will get nothing in movies same in games without good source code you have problem see CyberPunk  2077 during release you had great content but poor code.. and game got good reviews after they fix a code.

 

Quote

Now it's your turn. Please give us your rationale for your arguments. Give examples, use cases, anything. The ball is in your park now.

Make your case for us.

But cases of what? How closed source game are succesfull?  Cities Skyline have a lot of mods and still have closed source sooo it's not a must.

 

Quote

You are consistently ignoring the most recent (and, by far, the one with the worst consequences) problem right now: blatant Copyright Infringement by 3rd parties, some of them making money with P.D.'s IP without any kind of compensation, as royalties. Now we have even closed source mods advertising the competition using their own game. What's next? Mods with Casino ads?

But opening source code will not change that.  So I dont understand this point..

 

Quote

I really don't think it will be a good idea to try to sell us the privilege of doing free work for them, because if this is where this is going to go, I'm afraid they are going to have a hell of a Reality Check: we are paying customers that like to use our free time modding games, no cheap/free workforce at their disposition to do their work, what to say about paying for doing their work?

If anyone from Haveli is reading this thread, it's with an open heart that I strongly advise: don't go trough this venue, it will end in tears.

Reality check for you: You are not paying customer.. You were  you bought game at some point.. it was released  then  got 2DLC'es And that's all..  Studio was shutdown new owner didn't get your money.

Nobody says that modders are free workforce...

To be honest I;m tired of this conversation.. where you non stop trying to put into my mouth stuff i didn;t wrote.



 

Edited Wednesday at 11:08 AM by roxik0

[Lisias]

On 4/2/2025 at 7:59 AM, roxik0 said:

What savegames have about it? Possibility of saving game is part of source code... you put exactly my point.. they are games without possibility of save The movie is all combined you can have best scenario and actors without good camera work you will get nothing in movies same in games without good source code you have problem see CyberPunk  2077 during release you had great content but poor code.. and game got good reviews after they fix a code.

THIS. This is the reason we are clashing badly and getting exasperated with each other.

We have fundamentally different visions about the role the Source Code have on modern Software, and I'm talking from a privileged position, because I had seen the whole evolution since the 80s. I was a strange kid, my friends were talking about computer games, I was reading about commercial and industrial automation and what Companies like Microsoft were doing about.

I had installed and toyed with every single Spread Sheet ever launched for CP/M, MS-DOS and Windows since the 80s.

And let me tell you, essentially nobody talks about SuperCalc and MultiPlan anymore. Not even about Lotus 1-2-3 or Quattro Pro (Borland really excelled on almost everything they did). Forget about Lotus Symphony.

They are all dead bytes.

Everybody and the kitchen's sink migrated to Microsoft Excel in the late 90's besides it being a dog-sheet , crashing now and then due badly coded COM Objects running on a half-baked OS called Windows 3.11 (that had one of the worst memory managers I ever had to deal with).

Why?

Because Microsoft wrote converters for every single damned Spreadsheet ever published over a silicon substrate integrated circuit ever soldered into a PCB and so ended up becoming the Common Language for Spreadsheets (that, and some other shady corporation practices, to tell you the true - interesting how some of them can be found on this very Scene lately...).

No matter how good is your code - users don't care about code, they care about their data and how to use it. Me included - because I ditched Excel some years ago (besides it had become, really, one of the best written programs of all time - reading the History of the Team Excel inside the hell it was Microsoft in the 90s and 2000s is a hell of an interesting reading). I'm using LibreOffice, besides part of it still being written in Java and, so, using memory as it would be candies and being significantly slower than Excel on most workloads.

Why? Because LibreOffice does everything I need it to do, and don't impose to me any restrictions I don't want to cope with, as Microsoft 365 is imposing nowadays. Heck, I can  grab a Raspberry PI, install LibreOffice and open all my Cybervadis documents on it if something happen to all my home office infrastructure.

And this worths more to me than any excellency in code that Excel can provide to me.

Users playing games are the same. They are on the game (pun really intended) for the fun, not for the code. They just want their games to work properly - including savegames, that are essentially their own customized "Movie" that they are watching at the same time they are creating it.

KSP¹ is absolutely magnificent on this matter: my savegames can be used on my MacOS desktop, on my Windows Notebook and on my Linux Steam Deck without reserves - I can literally close KSP on one rig, sync the savegames and keep playing from where I left no matter the device I'm using at the moment.

I don't care if the game have the best and most efficient serialization code that is available today - in fact, KSP¹'s data (savegames et all) are pretty inefficient, but terribly tinkering friendly and the KSP¹ user base (or at least the ones that like toying with KSP) praises it a lot because it makes KSP¹ incredibly easy to tinker. And this is also a killer feature to me, I fully own my savegames and can tinker with it at will!!!

Again, the code worth squat. The value is on providing users with the value they want, not to what the programmers considers excellency - today, Excel can be considered excellency on code and I had ditched it for years already for a not so excellent solution because the later fits my needs way better.

 

On 4/2/2025 at 7:59 AM, roxik0 said:

But cases of what? How closed source game are succesfull?  Cities Skyline have a lot of mods and still have closed source sooo it's not a must.

Finally some argument worthing being discussed.

How Cities Skyline owners handle closed source mods promoting the competition?

How they are handling adversarial actors screwing their user base?

How Cities Skyline 2 is doing nowadays?  What happens when something change on Cities Skyline breaking mods, and an old closed source mod cease to work?

https://steamcharts.com/cmp/949230,255710#All

Interestingly, the curves are incredibly similar to KSP2's ones on steam, but - granted - the absolute numbers are way better.

https://steamcharts.com/cmp/954850,220200#All

But, being absolutely frank about, Cities Skylines 2 was a waste of money - had they just kept investing on the first installment, they would be earning way more money.

In a way or another, it would be interesting to investigate how the Cities: Skylines moddding scene is doing this days, how many mods are open source, what would be the most used ones, etc.

Would you fancy doing it for us?

 

On 4/2/2025 at 7:59 AM, roxik0 said:

But opening source code will not change that.  So I dont understand this point..

And this is where we clash badly. This thread is literally littered with arguments explaining ad nauseaum why Open Source helps to prevent copyright infringements and, yet, I need to replicate these arguments again and again because most contenders aren't here to discuss the idea, but to merely disprove the proposal following [pursuing] some personal agenda (not making any judgment of value about the agendas, they may be valid).

Opening the Source is a game changer because everybody and the kitchen's sink will be able to legally read it and will be, potentially, a copyright enforcement agent by recognizing the code being used on adversarial 3rd parties.

If you manage to have an engaging Community, that sees in you value and so make their best interest on defending your interests, they will help you fight adversarial actors because this is their best way to keep healthy the game they love playing.

If they get most value from Copyright Infringers, heck, you are toasted because they will do the same, so, for your adversaries.

With more people aware of the Source Code, better are the chances of any problematic code in your code being detected before you being in trouble.

One example I gave (see here and here) is related to IBM and Zynga. Interesting bits:

• IBM first approached Zynga in 2014, but the at the time management failed to take proper action, and let things develop.
•  TTWO bought Zynga in 2022.
  • And it's probably the reason IBM jumped on Zynga's throat also in 2022 - because they know that now someone would have the money to foot the bill.

Patents is another problem that encumbers Software, and Open Source is one of the possible (probably one of the best) ways to deal with it.

And, let me tell you, Copyrights work like Patents and have similar side effects, being the reason I used the Zynga example on my argumentation.

 

On 4/2/2025 at 7:59 AM, roxik0 said:

Reality check for you: You are not paying customer.. You were  you bought game at some point.. it was released  then  got 2DLC'es And that's all..  Studio was shutdown new owner didn't get your money.

When you buy a Company, you acquire the bonus but also the onus. Every single obligation included.

But... Let's play ball with your idea. Let's suppose you are right, and so Haveli won't have any obligation to me because I hadn't gave him any money. Well, it works both ways: this also means that I would only have obligations to TTWO, and so I won't need to respect any right Haveli currently have over the IP, right? After all, I had paid TTWO for the game, not Haveli.

So this means that I could decompile the game, reuse the assets in paying closed source mods and even use mods as a vehicle for advertising the competition, because TTWO was essentially allowing people to do that since long time ago.

Laws work both ways. If Haveli don't have any obligation to me, then I don't have any to them neither!

 

On 4/2/2025 at 7:59 AM, roxik0 said:

Nobody says that modders are free workforce...

But you had implied it when you suggest tactics used by companies that do that.

https://www.scamwatch.gov.au/types-of-scams/jobs-and-employment-scams

 

On 4/2/2025 at 7:59 AM, roxik0 said:

To be honest I;m tired of this conversation.. where you non stop trying to put into my mouth stuff i didn;t wrote.

I'm bringing to the table the logical consequences of what you are saying [proposing]. This is the whole purpose of an argument.

Things will be considerably more productive if you would dive in the subject being discussed, instead of getting defensive, thinking this is an attack to your persona.

I'm fighting the ideas you are bringing to the table, not you.

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Lisias
Entertaining grammars made slightely less entertaining...