Getting science right

[Tweeker]

Since Science is next up on the roadmap I'll repeat a suggestion from the past.  Untether the tech tree from "science",  it is not sensible for the the "science" that you  get from Mun rocks, or taking temperature reading to result in better engines, fuel tanks batteries Etc.  A much better system would be to earn "research" or some other resource based on milestones like launching your first rocket, reaching the upper atmosphere, reaching orbit. In addition to these milestone that were in KSP there should be new ones such as burn 10 tons Methalox, burn 100 tons Methalox, Keep a Kerbal alive in orbit for one day, accumulate 3600 seconds of runtime for "XXXX" engine.  Gaining "research" or "engineering" in this way is not only more realistic it fits with the learn by doing ethos of the game. In this way even failed missions earn new knowledge. 

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Tweeker

[Snafu225]

As someone who has played ~1300 hours of KSP 1 at this point and maybe 5 of them in sandbox, because I really enjoyed the gamefied career mode and the science system behind it. Still I agree with you and hope that the exploration system will end up being something like what you described.

[Tweeker]

58 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

As someone who has played ~1300 hours of KSP 1 at this point and maybe 5 of them in sandbox, because I really enjoyed the gamefied career mode and the science system behind it. Still I agree with you and hope that the exploration system will end up being something like what you described.

I played a game once where I did no science, other than the science you get from "return of a ship from "XXXXX""  

[anwitars]

I (almost) completely agree with you, especially with beginners in mind. Although on a second thought, your approach might be a bit annoying for a bit more experienced players. There are people who played hundreds or thousands of hours only in career (and I am pretty sure not in the same save), and they would go through the exact same process again, and again. Of course, this issue kind of was in KSP 1 as well, but you could gather many science with analyzing samples on a planet or moon.

I suggest to combine both. Your approach could be a "main source of research points via exploration", but I would also allow players to gather science (or research points) with the "old methods" (or even "modernize" these methods, as I will try to give ideas later on).

There should be 2 main ways to gather science / research points: the exploration way, and the "scientific way". 

The exploration should be the way to get the most research points at once (for example, the "first orbit" would give you 100 research points), and the science way would continously give you small amounts (for example, analyzing a sample would give you 20 throughout 1 month). The second approach has to give you really small amount, because you could have many "research labours". Maybe colonies could also research something, satellites would give you data that you could process to research points, and so on. I have not been thinking about any balance yet, but I think this way even if we can not avoid, but we could help the "just achieve the same milestones to get the same amount of research points every time" problem.

Maybe later on they could also add minerals to the game to analyze, build spaceships of (in career), and even a basic network of colonies and stations. The potential is unlimited. This does not mean they should make this game into a colony simulator, but I think giving the foundation to make mods (or expansions) that could be a huge hit (for a player like me who really enjoys these challenges).

Mods are a really, really big potential of this game, and I think the right way to develop the foundation of research gathering and research tree is to make it reliable and moddable, but also enjoyable vanilla.

[Tweeker]

25 minutes ago, anwitars said:

I (almost) completely agree with you, especially with beginners in mind. Although on a second thought, your approach might be a bit annoying for a bit more experienced players. There are people who played hundreds or thousands of hours only in career (and I am pretty sure not in the same save), and they would go through the exact same process again, and again. Of course, this issue kind of was in KSP 1 as well, but you could gather many science with analyzing samples on a planet or moon.

I suggest to combine both. Your approach could be a "main source of research points via exploration", but I would also allow players to gather science (or research points) with the "old methods" (or even "modernize" these methods, as I will try to give ideas later on).

There should be 2 main ways to gather science / research points: the exploration way, and the "scientific way". 

The exploration should be the way to get the most research points at once (for example, the "first orbit" would give you 100 research points), and the science way would continously give you small amounts (for example, analyzing a sample would give you 20 throughout 1 month). The second approach has to give you really small amount, because you could have many "research labours". Maybe colonies could also research something, satellites would give you data that you could process to research points, and so on. I have not been thinking about any balance yet, but I think this way even if we can not avoid, but we could help the "just achieve the same milestones to get the same amount of research points every time" problem.

Maybe later on they could also add minerals to the game to analyze, build spaceships of (in career), and even a basic network of colonies and stations. The potential is unlimited. This does not mean they should make this game into a colony simulator, but I think giving the foundation to make mods (or expansions) that could be a huge hit (for a player like me who really enjoys these challenges).

Mods are a really, really big potential of this game, and I think the right way to develop the foundation of research gathering and research tree is to make it reliable and moddable, but also enjoyable vanilla.

I remember the Kethane mod quite fondly.

Maybe one way to use what we know as science in KSP1  is to use it to unlock  abilities at each planetary body.  Retrieve 500 science from the Mun to unlock ISRU at the MUN. 1500 to unlock a Mun habitat, 5000 to unlock an assembly facility on the Mun.  And so on. 

[anwitars]

1 hour ago, Tweeker said:

I remember the Kethane mod quite fondly.

Maybe one way to use what we know as science in KSP1  is to use it to unlock  abilities at each planetary body.  Retrieve 500 science from the Mun to unlock ISRU at the MUN. 1500 to unlock a Mun habitat, 5000 to unlock an assembly facility on the Mun.  And so on. 

I think that is a good idea. It sounds like "progress for habitats and colonies on a planet". Even though probably it would be better not to think as a progression "on one planet", but "for one colony". So then it is allowed to create more than one per planet, and they would progress individually. But of course, it also brings the question: "what if we want them to 'support' each other?". 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

I think it's gonna need some sort progression system to count as a Game. 

Otherwise it's just a sandbox /sim... And for me the fun part of KSP was the progression system, having to do more with less and then unlocking a few new tools.  Those kinds of limitations drive creativity. 

[anwitars]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I think it's gonna need some sort progression system to count as a Game. 

Otherwise it's just a sandbox /sim... And for me the fun part of KSP was the progression system, having to do more with less and then unlocking a few new tools.  Those kinds of limitations drive creativity. 

Yes, I totally agree. I understand that the "simulator part" of the game is the biggest and the most challenging for the developers, and this game is actually meant to be a simulator game. Although to make it enjoyable as well, they need a progression system like you mentioned to give player extra challenges other than visit every planet and create challenges themselves. And I really hope they make almost all of these systems moddable to unlock the full potential of fun and challenges.

[Tweeker]

9 hours ago, anwitars said:

I think that is a good idea. It sounds like "progress for habitats and colonies on a planet". Even though probably it would be better not to think as a progression "on one planet", but "for one colony". So then it is allowed to create more than one per planet, and they would progress individually. But of course, it also brings the question: "what if we want them to 'support' each other?". 

Depends on how deeply you want to get into that aspect of the simulation, a Civilization style map for each planet? {remember Empire of the Fading Suns}

But I think you could still have a celestial  body level of  unlocked project  progression available via a series of structured contracts such as:

1) survey the Mun,

2) land on the Mun and return,

3) Build a habitat on the Mun, {which would require resupply missions} 

4) build a farm colony on the Mun {which would reduce the amount of resupply require}

5) build a mine on the Mun {which would further reduce the amount of re-supply}

6)build a factory on the mun, with a VAB and  launchpad {allowing rockets to be built on the Mun. 

Do a similar progression on Minmus with ice mining and fuel refining in place of building rockets.  

Then once both those are up and running unlock a orbital assembly yard around the Mun or Minmus, or both.