Docking physics.

[HammerTyme]

Hey everyone.  I haven’t been keeping up with the game much lately. I’ve been busy with work the past few months. Only having time to play KSP2 once in awhile.   My biggest frustration since launch has been docking…. I know it was improved a little shorty after launch. But ever since than I don’t think anything has changed much/improved further.  I’m still having a lot of issues with undocking.  Vessels being undocked will suddenly jolt away, at an angle rather than a smooth disconnect and float away slowly as they should.   Docking ports not working at all after being connected to a decoupler. (I think this is a confirmed bug).  Undocking from my space station causing it to suddenly burst apart.    Stuff like that. Docking is important for the gameplay loops I personally enjoy in the game.  And having them not working properly is a huge bummer. 
 

With that said,  guess my question for anyone who knows… is there any plans to improve this soon?  I know the science update is coming next month and I REALLY hope that docking will be fixed,  can any devs confirm if that’s a possibility?   

Edited November 8, 2023 by HammerTyme

[Scarecrow71]

Docking and its associated bugs are high on the priority list for the developers.  I have no information other than that for you, though.

[HammerTyme]

3 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Docking and its associated bugs are high on the priority list for the developers.  I have no information other than that for you, though.

That’s good to know! I really hope they improve it soon. 

[ConsoleCoder]

Despite all the docking issues, I actually learned how to dock in ksp2. And I don’t mean I leaned to navigate the bugs, but I actually docking for the first time ever, and it happened to be in ksp2. I’ve never docked once in ksp1, but I’ve done it 3 forms in ksp2.

[Bej Kerman]

On 11/13/2023 at 4:50 AM, ConsoleCoder said:

Despite all the docking issues, I actually learned how to dock in ksp2. And I don’t mean I leaned to navigate the bugs, but I actually docking for the first time ever, and it happened to be in ksp2. I’ve never docked once in ksp1, but I’ve done it 3 forms in ksp2.

Docking is just as plain sailing in KSP 2 as it was in KSP 1. At this point, reports of the game being unplayable are greatly exaggerated at best.

[Scarecrow71]

7 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Docking is just as plain sailing in KSP 2 as it was in KSP 1. At this point, reports of the game being unplayable are greatly exaggerated at best.

Guess you haven't seen the bug report I submitted about craft spinning uncontrollably when targeting another craft.  Let me just grab that and put it right here for you.

I'd say that makes the game pretty darned unplayable when it comes to trying to dock.

[Bej Kerman]

28 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I'd say that makes the game pretty darned unplayable when it comes to trying to dock.

The game isn't unplayable cause a very minor SAS bug prevents you from using the lazy method. Just dock as you would do an immobile station, rotate parallel to the target port and approach from there using RCS.

[Scarecrow71]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

The game isn't unplayable cause a very minor SAS bug prevents you from using the lazy method. Just dock as you would do an immobile station, rotate parallel to the target port and approach from there using RCS.

You aren't understanding that as soon as you leave the craft you are flying it spins uncontrollably.  That's not a very minor SAS bug - it makes the game unplayable as you aren't able to switch craft mid-flight.  Not to mention that how I dock relies upon being able to do this.  I take control of the primary craft and set the target craft as Target, then hit the Target button on SAS.  I then switch to the target craft and set the primary craft as Target, then hit the Target button on SAS.  This lines the docking ports up perfectly so all I have to do is control speed with the primary craft.

For you to tell me the bug is minor is akin to telling me I'm playing wrong.  This is how I learned how to dock, and it works in KSP1.  It's not a minor bug if you cannot switch vehicles mid-flight.

[Bej Kerman]

2 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

it makes the game unplayable as you aren't able to switch craft mid-flight

That one's new to me. 

3 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

This is how I learned how to dock, and it works in KSP1

Learning to dock via the Lowne lazy method is like learning to draw anime before learning how to do realistic anatomy. You're not hurting me, but it can only be useful knowing how to dock properly in case a bug happens. Barring bugs, you might need to dock with something whose batteries are dead and reaction wheels inoperable, and at some point you'll be expected to dock vessels to orbital bases that are far too big to use the Lowne lazy method on. Thus I expect only knowing how to dock like this will probably cause trouble for you in the future, even under circumstances that are 100% as the developers intended. And with that, I maintain that the game being unplayable in this report is an exaggeration per my initial stance.

[Scarecrow71]

21 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

That one's new to me. 

Learning to dock via the Lowne lazy method is like learning to draw anime before learning how to do realistic anatomy. You're not hurting me, but it can only be useful knowing how to dock properly in case a bug happens. Barring bugs, you might need to dock with something whose batteries are dead and reaction wheels inoperable, and at some point you'll be expected to dock vessels to orbital bases that are far too big to use the Lowne lazy method on. Thus I expect only knowing how to dock like this will probably cause trouble for you in the future, even under circumstances that are 100% as the developers intended. And with that, I maintain that the game being unplayable in this report is an exaggeration per my initial stance.

I have never run into a situation where I could not use the method I use.  The bug is not minor, and it is not an exaggeration.  The bug makes switching craft that are to target each other spin uncontrollably; the fact that I saw it and reported it during docking doesn't make it any less of a bug considering it could happen at under any given circumstance where you have multiple craft targeting one another and you switch between them.

You and I are going to disagree on this, and that's fine.  But please don't tell me this is an exaggeration, or that I'm playing wrong.  Neither of those is true.  What you feel is not necessarily what anyone else feels.

[Bej Kerman]

13 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I have never run into a situation where I could not use the method I use [...] But please don't tell me this is an exaggeration, or that I'm playing wrong.

I really  want to know what your plan is if a vessel runs out of power or you're still here when OABs come out. Those are scenarios where you end up with the game supposedly "unplayable" bc the Lowne lazy method is not viable, but things are running completely within the bounds of what the devs intended. It really is an exaggeration because the game is still playable. You can still at least try dock normally. You're not softlocked or forced to revert. Unplayable means you can't do either, but in this case, you can.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Bej Kerman

[Scarecrow71]

36 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I really  want to know what your plan is if a vessel runs out of power or you're still here when OABs come out. Those are scenarios where you end up with the game supposedly "unplayable" bc the Lowne lazy method is not viable, but things are running completely within the bounds of what the devs intended. It really is an exaggeration because the game is still playable. You can still at least try dock normally. You're not softlocked or forced to revert. Unplayable means you can't do either, but in this case, you can.

For starters, I always use infinite electricity to make sure I never run out of power.  No, I don't use infinite propellant; I just dislike watching craft not be able to do anything because I'm in a dark spot.  Yes, it's a cheat.  No, it's not realistic.  Yes, this is a game where realism sometimes get thrown out the window.

Secondly, I'm assuming OAB means Orbital Assembly...something-or-other?  How is the Lowne method not viable in that situation?  Why are you assuming I'm going to play the exact same way you are, or that I'm going to undertake the same type of things you are?

Edited November 14, 2023 by Scarecrow71

[Bej Kerman]

12 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

For starters, I always use infinite electricity to make sure I never run out of power.  No, I don't use infinite propellant; I just dislike watching craft not be able to do anything because I'm in a dark spot.  Yes, it's a cheat.  No, it's not realistic.  Yes, this is a game where realism sometimes get thrown out the window.

Okay

12 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Secondly, I'm assuming OAB means Orbital Assembly...something-or-other?  How is the Lowne method not viable in that situation?

Can't remember what the B stands for (building? base?), but OABs are gonna be where you launch interstellar vehicles from. Those things that range from hundreds of meters long to kilometers. No, I don't think the Lowne method is gonna be viable between a crew shuttle and a colossal space station. Unless you like your dockings to take hours, again assuming the game runs physics on OABs.

14 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Why are you assuming I'm going to play the exact same way you are, or that I'm going to undertake the same type of things you are?

I think assuming OABs will be important for interstellar colonisation is a pretty solid assumption. If you don't want to go interstellar or play with colonies, I guess that's your way of playing.

[Scarecrow71]

14 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I think assuming OABs will be important for interstellar colonisation is a pretty solid assumption. If you don't want to go interstellar or play with colonies, I guess that's your way of playing.

Even with more than 1000 hours in KSP1, I still haven't mastered the Kerbolar system yet.  Heck, I haven't touched down on Tylo, or Laythe.  I haven't landed on and launched from Eve.  I've got things in this system to do before I even contemplate interstellar.  Perhaps, once I get that far, I'll have learned a different technique for docking.  Until then, yeah, this is how I'm gonna roll.

[Bej Kerman]

22 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Even with more than 1000 hours in KSP1, I still haven't mastered the Kerbolar system yet.  Heck, I haven't touched down on Tylo, or Laythe.  I haven't landed on and launched from Eve.  I've got things in this system to do before I even contemplate interstellar.  Perhaps, once I get that far, I'll have learned a different technique for docking.  Until then, yeah, this is how I'm gonna roll.

That's great, though I maintain the bug is not a game breaker. It's just a craft spinning.

[Kerbart]

7 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Docking is just as plain sailing in KSP 2 as it was in KSP 1. At this point, reports of the game being unplayable are greatly exaggerated at best.

Remind me never to set foot on a yacht you pilot. Ramming another ship shouldn't be called "plain sailing"

[moeggz]

The docking issues are the bug that keeps me from playing right now. Even after 1.5, and even when I don’t dock as Scarecrow does (which I normally do, even before I started watching Matt Lowne’s content) docking seems to cause issues. Loss of SAS, craft still occasionally flying off when dedocking and crafts that dock seem more prone to the bug where parts of your ship start drifting away causing miss alignment of thrust. I actually landed with an engine like that the week the game launched on the Mun. Was entertaining then less so this far after release.

Not everyone uses docking frequently in their gameplay loops, but if you do it does for many of us make the game unplayable in the sense that the frustration outweighs the entertainment of the game. Not that it literally crashes the game.

4 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Learning to dock via the Lowne lazy method is like learning to draw anime before learning how to do realistic anatomy. You're not hurting me, but it can only be useful knowing how to dock properly in case a bug happens

Well I personally don’t know any artist who started drawing lifelike people before they drew people in a simpler style. And the great thing about art is that you can draw however you want. If you have a canvas that catches fire if you draw in an anime style it is an unworkable canvas if that’s the style you like to draw. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by moeggz

[Scarecrow71]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

That's great, though I maintain the bug is not a game breaker. It's just a craft spinning.

We have two different playstyles, which is awesome.  But please don't belittle my experience simply because of that.

[Periple]

I haven’t had any huge problems docking, except with the port that has the aerodynamic shielding. That got into a weird state where the craft started drifting apart while still in the docked state.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Periple

[Bej Kerman]

12 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

We have two different playstyles, which is awesome.  But please don't belittle my experience simply because of that.

I'm not belittling your experience, I'm explaining that the game's still playable in your scenario.

[Scarecrow71]

4 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I'm not belittling your experience, I'm explaining that the game's still playable in your scenario.

No, you are telling me my playstyle is wrong because it conflicts with how you perceive the game.  Again, having a playstyle different from mine is awesome; you do you.  That's what KSP is for, and how it works best.  But for me, and for me only because I cannot speak for anyone else, the game is not playable in this scenario due to how I play the game.  Telling me it is doesn't give any credibility to the bug report I submitted, nor does it allow me to have a different opinion.

On that note, I will say that not everybody is going to view this the same way I do.  If you think the game is still playable under this scenario, then that's awesome.

[Bej Kerman]

8 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

No, you are telling me my playstyle is wrong because it conflicts with how you perceive the game.

I'm not, I'm simply stating that the game's still playable and that you can theoretically still continue.

9 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

the game is not playable in this scenario due to how I play the game

It is playable, you just don't know how to dock the one-craft way and that's fine, but you can't blame the game for that and go round calling it an example of unplayability.

18 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

On that note, I will say that not everybody is going to view this the same way I do.  If you think the game is still playable under this scenario, then that's awesome.

Okay

[joratto]

On 11/14/2023 at 5:53 PM, Bej Kerman said:

Docking is just as plain sailing in KSP 2 as it was in KSP 1. At this point, reports of the game being unplayable are greatly exaggerated at best.

Do you understand that this is incorrect because of the bug reposted by @Scarecrow71?

Whether or not you'd go on to argue that this bug is also game breaking  is a function of the validity of your playstyle.

[Bej Kerman]

19 minutes ago, joratto said:

Do you understand that this is incorrect because of the bug reposted by @Scarecrow71?

Whether or not you'd go on to argue that this bug is also game breaking  is a function of the validity of your playstyle.

I already had this discussion. Scarecrow71 literally uses the cheat options to avoid this happening in a manner that's consistent with what the devs intended and the bug just put them in a situation most dockers deal with under regular circumstances. It's not a gamebreaking bug so much as it's a bug that forces you to confront being unable to dock without assistance from the other craft. That's not game breaking, it's a difficult situation but most certainly not a game breaking one under any reasonable definition of the term.

[Scarecrow71]

53 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I already had this discussion. Scarecrow71 literally uses the cheat options to avoid this happening in a manner that's consistent with what the devs intended and the bug just put them in a situation most dockers deal with under regular circumstances. It's not a gamebreaking bug so much as it's a bug that forces you to confront being unable to dock without assistance from the other craft. That's not game breaking, it's a difficult situation but most certainly not a game breaking one under any reasonable definition of the term.

And which cheat am I using?  I get the craft to rendezvous, line them up, set them as targets to each other, use SAS to point them at each other, then slowly thrust with one craft towards the other until they dock.  Which actual cheat are you accusing me of using here?  I didn't realize it was cheating to actually dock in a way that's consistent with how one of the biggest KSP players/streamers does it?  Didn't realize that actually flying a craft was cheating?

Oh, and I figured out that the bug is due to having RCS engaged when you switch craft.  And yes, that IS a bug.

But again, go ahead and tell me which cheat I'm using.  Please.  I'd like to understand why you think I'm not playing the game as designed.  Or why you think my playstyle is wrong.