For Science! Deep Dive

[Intercept Games]

Curious about what you can expect in KSP2's first milestone update?

We chatted with a few key members of the KSP team to give you an early look at For Science!

 

[NexusHelium]

One word:

...

hype

Honestly! Haven't you given us enough?! The update comes out in 4 DAYS... Why do you guys have to make it feel like 4 YEARS.

Edited December 15, 2023 by NexusHelium

[WelshSteW]

 

HYPE!!!!!!

 

I'm SO looking forward to this. I swore I'd never let myself get hyped up for anything ever again, I got burnt with KSP2 and Cities Skylines 2, and it hurts man. But here we are, and here I am bouncing around the place  

I can't wait.

 

[VegaStar]

Hype!

So happy that we got direct confirmation that experiments now have individual crew, resource - and especially - time requirements, in order to run! The 6 minutes for the orbital lab seems a bit short, but makes sense nonetheless. Here is hoping that we get, either in this update or at some later time, experiments that require days, months or even years to complete - making proper planning even more essential.

[ChrisShourai]

40 minutes ago, VegaStar said:

Here is hoping that we get, either in this update or at some later time, experiments that require days, months or even years to complete - making proper planning even more essential.

100% agree, big wish for me too!

[The Aziz]

49 minutes ago, VegaStar said:

Hype!

So happy that we got direct confirmation that experiments now have individual crew, resource - and especially - time requirements, in order to run! The 6 minutes for the orbital lab seems a bit short, but makes sense nonetheless. Here is hoping that we get, either in this update or at some later time, experiments that require days, months or even years to complete - making proper planning even more essential.

That's 6 minutes of providing constant power to the lab. You turn it on too late into the orbital evening and I'll turn dark. Not much of a challenge but a challenge nonetheless because you have to think when to do things.

[Kerbart]

54 minutes ago, VegaStar said:

Hype!

So happy that we got direct confirmation that experiments now have individual crew, resource - and especially - time requirements, in order to run!

Well, you'd have that confirmation in a few days anyway.

[TechieV]

Woo-hoo! 
 

The first milestone of the game, in just 4 days! And that too a pretty huge one.

 

Hype!

[Kerbart]

It's good to see so many different (and new) faces in the video. Not only to hear their side of the story and share some of the Natesposure, but also because it builds confidence in the community that there are in fact more people working on the project.

Also good insight as to why reentry doesn't look as cool aas many of us want it to be—performance is important, after all.

[regex]

Some really cool stuff and fresh ideas, I'm looking forward to the new update.

One thing that wasn't answered was whether missions autocomplete or whether they're needed to complete the tech tree. That doesn't seem to be the case given that we have discoverables but then that kind of brings up a question of just how fast one can blitz the tech tree by taking advantage of all different avenues.

[kennyc222]

Let's freaking GOOOOOOO! best way to kill time during Christmas Holiday! 

[TROPtastic]

14 hours ago, Kerbart said:

It's good to see so many different (and new) faces in the video. Not only to hear their side of the story and share some of the Natesposure, but also because it builds confidence in the community that there are in fact more people working on the project.

Also good insight as to why reentry doesn't look as cool aas many of us want it to be—performance is important, after all.

I would still like to see a little more dynamism in reentry effects, although I have no idea what the performance cost would be to add some flickering flames.

[Chilkoot]

On 12/15/2023 at 12:16 PM, The Aziz said:

That's 6 minutes of providing constant power to the lab. You turn it on too late into the orbital evening and I'll turn dark. Not much of a challenge but a challenge nonetheless because you have to think when to do things.

Not shown in the vid, but it could also require 6 minutes of very high drain, meaning stacks and stacks of batteries - or capacitors thanks to Adderly - adding weight and complexity to the build.

This isn't that uncommon IRL - it's a problem with experiments on the ISS, adding mucho lift cost b/c of increased weight, and also a challenge for Rocket Lab with their electric pump system on the Rutherford engine which requires huge battery packs.

Definitely a step in the right direction.  I'm sure it will evolve over time to hit a really fun sweet spot for each science part.

On 12/15/2023 at 11:25 AM, VegaStar said:

we got direct confirmation that experiments now have individual crew [...] requirements, in order to run!

Not so sure about that one... the quote at 2:38:  "We really want to focus on the difficulties of building and flying and not so much about [...] did I bring the right Kerbal in order to do this sort of thing".

Sounds to me like that means *no* crew requirements for specific experiments, but we'll see soon enough!

[VegaStar]

1 hour ago, Chilkoot said:

Sounds to me like that means *no* crew requirements for specific experiments, but we'll see soon enough!

If you look at 3:14 in the For Science! deep dive video, in the OSL-25 "Starlab" orbital survey experiment, at the bottom of the experiment information, you will see the text "Crew Required: 2". So I am fairly certain that we do have crew requirements.

1 hour ago, Chilkoot said:

Not so sure about that one... the quote at 2:38:  "We really want to focus on the difficulties of building and flying and not so much about [...] did I bring the right Kerbal in order to do this sort of thing".

And I think this does not mean that experiments may have crew requirements, but rather that the old KSP1 distinction between pilot/engineer/scientist is an unnecessary complication, and they have thus decided to remove that distinction. In this context, that likely means that while you do need a certain amount of kerbals in order to run an experiment, it does not matter who the kerbals are - Jeb is now just as qualified to run an experiment as Bob is.

And honestly, I think that is a lot more realistic, actually! Human astronauts nowadays are trained in basically everything; Everyone needs to be able to fly a ship, or be trained in medical administration, in case of emergencies. Everyone needs to have a solid understanding of engineering in order to troubleshoot and fix issues with equipment. And someone who can only fly the ship, regardless of how skilled they are, are no more than dead weight with regards to the typical mission goals - to do science! And thus everyone needs to be a proficient scientist as well.

Tldr; I believe it is very certain that we do have crew requirements for certain experiments, but that it does not matter what kerbals we bring to do these experiments, as every kerbal should be trained and qualified for any situation, whether that be flying the ship, doing construction/repair work, or conducting scientific experiments.

[Meecrob]

34 minutes ago, VegaStar said:

And honestly, I think that is a lot more realistic, actually! Human astronauts nowadays are trained in basically everything; Everyone needs to be able to fly a ship, or be trained in medical administration, in case of emergencies. Everyone needs to have a solid understanding of engineering in order to troubleshoot and fix issues with equipment. And someone who can only fly the ship, regardless of how skilled they are, are no more than dead weight with regards to the typical mission goals - to do science! And thus everyone needs to be a proficient scientist as well.

I hate to be the "Akchually" guy, but, KSP1 is closer to reality. Harrison Schmitt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Schmitt) from Apollo 17 is a good example. He was the only one of any of the Apollo crews that had proper training in geology. The other 5 missions had dudes picking up random dirt they had relatively no clue about.

Having said that, the playability of KSP1's class system wasn't fun, and is definitely an area that can be dumbed down. I don't think a single player enjoyed doing those "training missions" that made you send Kerbals to just outside Kerbin's SOI for the full XP upgrade.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Meecrob

[VegaStar]

15 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

I hate to be the "Akchually" guy, but, KSP1 is closer to reality. Harrison Schmitt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Schmitt) from Apollo 17 is a good example. He was the only one of any of the Apollo crews that had proper training in geology. The other 5 missions had dudes picking up random dirt they had relatively no clue about.

Fair, sometimes you do need a proper mission specialist - I was honestly thinking about how a large number of astronauts are either pilots by profession, or become one as part of their training. But I honestly do not have any specific source for that information, so if someone has credible information that says otherwise, then I will appreciate their input.

I still think the point stands, though. A good astronaut is someone competent in a wide range of fields and mission roles - and given the unforgiving nature of the rocket equation, minimizing the number of astronauts required for a mission is absolutely crucial; Fewer people = less strain on the support systems and less supplies needed = less mass and thus more delta-v = you can go further, faster.

[Chilkoot]

3 hours ago, VegaStar said:

So I am fairly certain that we do have crew requirements.

Right - I thought the context was pretty clear, but the quote implies no *specific* kerbal (or role) is necessary, such as a scientist or engineer.  Minimum crew appears to still be a thing.

[The Aziz]

I went into the video again and there's a thing that caught my attention.

Paraphrasing, "our exploration mode has something that KSP1 Science mode didn't have which is missions, those were available only in Career"

So in essence, it's like saying that haha, our mode has more than just science (which reintroduces the same, although less grindy, system of go and click without thinking too much about it (woo, and EVA report will help me unlock a grid fin)), but then they brought back one of the least liked features of career, which were known as contracts. And made it sound like it was something new. But it really isn't, right? A task of go out there and do a thing. We've played it before, the only difference was that the reward also contained funds and reputation, two things that are no longer present (for good).

Don't get me wrong, I will enjoy the exploration of different planets and finding what can be found out there, and involved narrative. However, I was really looking forward for new, or rather, different gameplay around science but it looks like there isn't any, aside from the "where do I put it" in building phase and waiting/timewarping through timed experiments.

I want to be surprised but it doesn't look like I will be. If you want feedback, here it is.

[Kerbart]

19 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

I went into the video again and there's a thing that caught my attention.

Paraphrasing, "our exploration mode has something that KSP1 Science mode didn't have which is missions, those were available only in Career"

[...] but then they brought back one of the least liked features of career, which were known as contracts. And made it sound like it was something new. But it really isn't, right? A task of go out there and do a thing. We've played it before, the only difference was that the reward also contained funds and reputation, two things that are no longer present (for good).

Anything that has been revealed so far is, in the sense of changing game mechanics, massively underwhelming. If only now you start realizing that missions are just contracts, you're a bit late to the game (no pun intended). All is not lost though. Contracts tended to be repetitive, and with funds out of the equation, they don't have to be.

I also suspect/hope/pray that the approach of "ditch what didn't work, keep what did" was taken. With the reward structure revamped and a new tech tree, and landscape feature integrated with that and present on all bodies (I assume) it might be a lot more fun to play than "It's basically career mode without money" would suggest.

[The Aziz]

7 hours ago, Kerbart said:

I also suspect/hope/pray that the approach of "ditch what didn't work, keep what did" was taken.

It does sound like it. But it also sounds like they ditched what didn't work, kept what did but added nothing new to the equation. Yes the tech tree is rebalanced and the experiments require a minute of planning ahead and missions provide some context, but there's no complete novelty so far. Looks  like the first "new" gameplay will arrive with colonies.

7 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Contracts tended to be repetitive, and with funds out of the equation, they don't have to be.

They all seem unique by the looks of it, but one problem with it is, the uniqueness at some point runs out. Then what, no missions at all?

[Meecrob]

14 hours ago, VegaStar said:

Fair, sometimes you do need a proper mission specialist - I was honestly thinking about how a large number of astronauts are either pilots by profession, or become one as part of their training. But I honestly do not have any specific source for that information, so if someone has credible information that says otherwise, then I will appreciate their input.

I still think the point stands, though. A good astronaut is someone competent in a wide range of fields and mission roles - and given the unforgiving nature of the rocket equation, minimizing the number of astronauts required for a mission is absolutely crucial; Fewer people = less strain on the support systems and less supplies needed = less mass and thus more delta-v = you can go further, faster.

You are absolutely incorrect. The pilot knows how to fly. It is extremely training intensive. The mission specialists train for their specialty as well. It is extremely training intensive. Yes, many astronauts are pilots, but there is a very big difference between being certified to fly a plane and being certified to fly a spacecraft. This isn't a bunch of all-rounders, they are highly specialized in what they do. Aside from liking to fly planes, I bet a bunch of them like driving fast cars too.

Edit: You say "sometimes you need a mission specialist" okay I need to be way more clear. 5 times we went to the moon and all the pilots brought back was the equivalent of playground pebbles because it took so long to train them to fly, they couldn't be trained in what samples would be actually valuable to return. You'd need an actual geologist who happens to be an astronaut. The reason NASA sent so many pilots was due to the experimental nature of the missions. Once they felt comfortable , they let go of the pilot redundancy that was engineered in to be let go of when enough data was acquired and confidence was built. They upgraded to a scientist once they reached that level, its just a shame the program was cancelled before more missions could be sent with other scientists.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Meecrob

[Kerbart]

5 hours ago, The Aziz said:

It does sound like it. But it also sounds like they ditched what didn't work, kept what did but added nothing new to the equation. Yes the tech tree is rebalanced and the experiments require a minute of planning ahead and missions provide some context, but there's no complete novelty so far. Looks  like the first "new" gameplay will arrive with colonies.

Now extrapolate that to science experiments. How different do you think it is going to be from KSP1?

[Mitokandria]

15 hours ago, The Aziz said:

It does sound like it. But it also sounds like they ditched what didn't work, kept what did but added nothing new to the equation. Yes the tech tree is rebalanced and the experiments require a minute of planning ahead and missions provide some context, but there's no complete novelty so far. Looks  like the first "new" gameplay will arrive with colonies.

They all seem unique by the looks of it, but one problem with it is, the uniqueness at some point runs out. Then what, no missions at all?

I think you make a valid point on the experiments. I'm clearly in the minority on this but I actually really liked the implementation of science experiments in KSP1. I admit I'm more a fan of Kerbalism's method where they take time, but similar foundation. I don't think I've heard anything about how Science experiments will be different from KSP1 yet. I guess we'll find out on the 20th though!

 

I'm guessing missions will be hybrid. A core set of missions of discovery/exploration,  Colony resource requirements, and a randomly generated mission every once in a while.

What kind of "end-game missions" would you suggest? The only options I can think of are: resource sink missions w/ reward of some rare resource; no new missions ("Game completed");  randomly generated missions; or a mix of resource sink and rando missions.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Mitokandria

[Wheehaw Kerman]

10 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Now extrapolate that to science experiments. How different do you think it is going to be from KSP1?

Possibly extremely different, with more depth, playability and nuance, as a result of a bunch of talented devs who love and play the game spending several years listening to player discussion and designing something that addresses KSP1’s issues and improvs on the original considerably.  In other words, about as different as stock graphics and music in the EA versions of both games - vastly improved already and only going to get better.

The neat thing?  We’re going to find out 19 or so hours from now :).

[Wheehaw Kerman]

23 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Anything that has been revealed so far is, in the sense of changing game mechanics, massively underwhelming. If only now you start realizing that missions are just contracts, you're a bit late to the game (no pun intended). All is not lost though. Contracts tended to be repetitive, and with funds out of the equation, they don't have to be.

I also suspect/hope/pray that the approach of "ditch what didn't work, keep what did" was taken. With the reward structure revamped and a new tech tree, and landscape feature integrated with that and present on all bodies (I assume) it might be a lot more fun to play than "It's basically career mode without money" would suggest.

I think you’re right.  Even if missions are “just” contracts, which I doubt (I’m betting they haven’t told us everything), I expect they’re going to be a much better implementation of the contract system.  One of the things that bugged me about contract mode was that it kept me from exploration.  This became less of a problem once I realized that you can fit 9 tourists into command chairs in a 2.5 meter Service Bay, stack a couple of those, and make obscene profits on a single Mün shot, but if the contract/mission system is better thought out, less annoying, somewhat less randomized and more about heroic space exploration and building cool stuff, it’s going to be awesome.  Heck, it’s right there in the mode title.