We need DeltaV planning more than we need Burn planning

[Grubbbee]

KSP1 has "DeltaV planning" (sort of). It supplied the number of seconds of burn required to achieve that DeltaV. Players then learned to calculate a burn solution to achieve the desired DeltaV.  A bit of crude math, but it works well enough, I never had issues.

KSP2 has "Burn planning". It figures out exactly when to start/stop a burn based on your spaceship (engines/staging/fuel). This is a cool concept using some improved math, but it DOES NOT REPLACE the original DeltaV planning - mainly because it doesn't work if the vessel doesn't have enough fuel, or isn't stage correctly.

I started playing KSP2 again with Exploration mode now out, and my ship ran out of fuel and will need a rescue for Valentina. I discovered since I was out of fuel that I couldn't even create a maneuver node anymore. This is really frustrating.

KSP2 still needs to have DeltaV planning. I suggest coming up with a way to plan DeltaV changes, and then on top of that a mechanism to "calculate engine burn solution". 

Everyone playing KSP2 loves space and exploring it in their own way, but I can't be the only one who finds this new system to be lacking something. I might learn to adjust to the new system (I have other frustrations though), but it still needs to have a way to handle the "not enough fuel" case and still let me play with maneuvers.

Maybe I will refuel a ship or jettison shuttles, or a multitude of other things, some of them possibly irrational (but not all of them).

 I feel I'm on to something when I say "DeltaV planning" and "burn planning" are two separate things though, and that might be the root of the problem here. In KSP1 players could do the burn planning approximation without too much fuss, but in KSP2 you've taken away the ability to do open-ended DeltaV planning with the tools available, and this is supposed to be VERY open-ended and fun (it is still a game after all).

[Mutex]

You seem to be suggesting a mode or screen where you can freely place maneuver nodes, with whatever dV and thrust, to plan out a journey? That would be very useful. I've done missions to Jool recently and, despite being a KSP player for over a decade, been caught out by the dV requirements. A place you could freely plan your maneuvers and see the dV required would help a lot.

[Sammys Stuffs]

yeah a way to place and manipulate maneuvers with more delta V than a craft has is just logical. That one baffles me that it isn't in game. My nuclear tug was bugged the other day and showing that it was still half fuel but reading out "0 Delta V" I was able to complete the rest of the mission without maneuvers, but a newer player likely wouldn't have been able to.

[Superfluous J]

I agree we need a way to plan maneuvers ahead of time and separate from the craft abilities.

I do not agree that the maneuver node planner is the place for it.

Similar to @Mutex, I want a real mission planner where I can draw out a mission FIRST, then using what I drew build a craft that can complete each step of my plan.

[seanpg71]

I built a small mun return craft that was just a capsule with some parachutes and a heat shield, a monoprop tank and some maneuvering thrusters.  And was a bit annoyed when I realized that meant I couldn't use a maneuver node for the burn to break orbit and return to Kerbin. 

[Grubbbee]

I like these ideas of a comprehensive mission planner where you can add nodes and build orbits before building a ship. That sounds amazing.

While, in my rant I was mainly just trying say - I like the idea of the mathematically more accurate maneuver calculations, but I really want the system back from KSP1 in it simply not being limited by the fuel/staging of the craft, but I do like your visions/ideas of a "fully capable" mission planner as well.

[Superfluous J]

52 minutes ago, Grubbbee said:

I like the idea of the mathematically more accurate maneuver calculations, but I really want the system back from KSP1 in it simply not being limited by the fuel/staging of the craft

I 100% understand, but after using it for several hours I so much more like this maneuver node to the old one, I'd scream like a banshee if we lost it.

I'm all for 2 methods, just don't remove the new one to put the old one back in

1 hour ago, seanpg71 said:

I built a small mun return craft that was just a capsule with some parachutes and a heat shield, a monoprop tank and some maneuvering thrusters.  And was a bit annoyed when I realized that meant I couldn't use a maneuver node for the burn to break orbit and return to Kerbin. 

I'd throw this into suggestions. Some kind of "include monoprop" checkbox when creating a node.

[joratto]

I assume that maneuver planning when you have no fuel is tricky in KSP2 because the game actually calculates a continuously accelerating trajectory now, which requires you to know your instantaneous mass and TWR. If you're out of fuel, your mass can no longer change, so any speculative trajectory calculations beyond your craft's capabilities would be inaccurate, and they would get more inaccurate as you get more speculative. KSP1 didn't have this issue because its maneuver planner assumed (inaccurately) that all acceleration was impulsive.

Two possible solutions for KSP2:

1. Assume the spacecraft can accelerate without losing any mass for the "speculative" part of the maneuver.

2. Assume the "speculative" part of the maneuver is impulsive.

Both solutions embrace the inaccuracy of a speculative maneuver, and would probably have to be accompanied by a clear ingame warning like "maneuver plans exceeding delta v budget are inaccurate!".

The benefit of these kinds of speculative maneuvers is that they'd give you a ballpark idea of what you could do with a little bit of extra delta v, even though they'd be bad at predicting what you could do with a whole lot of extra delta v.

Edited January 7 by joratto

[Wheehaw Kerman]

I think the current burn planner doohickey is a step in the right direction, but needs significant debugging and expansion - for starters, dv expended and dv remaining in burn would be useful (in addition to the currently untrustworthy progress bar).  I’ve taken to subtracting dv required from dv in stage and hitting x once the dv in stage hits that figure.

A planning feature would be great - I have a dv map save on my phone and use that as a planning tool, but something in the game proper would be noob-educational as well as useful.