I like Science, but I've run dry

[Hanuman]

Man, no offense and I’m not trying to claim to be the oldest or the greatest at anything, but I’ve been playing KSP since the 0.18 demo before there was science to gather, and I’ve got about a thousand hours or so in the first game.   I understand the game modes perfectly well.  I’m only telling you this because you’re jumping to the conclusion in that I must be playing in the wrong game mode or having some skill deficit because I’m not having the same experience as you.   Further, that bad conclusion is seeming to color the rest of your reply as well.  

It is perhaps most telling, that in a game mode you can’t lose, can save games, and revert flights you’re thinking that tech unlocks are the challenge portion of the game instead of the actual science and maneuvering skill needed to simply do things.   It would seem that would again, be best served by their mission system down to and including using part restrictions in order to complete said missions, and later on with using funding and Career.  Using your own argument that later tier parts change the fundamental gameplay to be trivial to function outside of Kerbin SOI how exactly is it that you also argue that access to those parts in KSP1 make it so players don’t leave Kerbin SOI?   It’s too easy so they don’t do it?   Again, I’m glad you had a positive experience,  but for every you that sees encouragement to leave, how many players are just discouraged instead?

Why accept that?

[steveman0]

I have gotten the strong impression that you have many hours in the past game and I expect it was a big factor in your analysis. You have to recognize the design from the developers' perspective and understand their goals with KSP2. The main points of its design aren't to exclusively appeal to long time players. They are trying to draw in more new players and give them the experience that many didn't quite get out of the first game. In that regard, the narrow, focused scope of the missions with the comstraints of the tech tree do an excellet job of guiding the player along with opportunities to learn how to complete missions effectively even when they have limited parts available.

I'm just not clear on what you think needs to change to improve this further. You claim you have a lot of experience and aren't challenged by the missions, so why are you expecting to have an overpowered array of parts available to complete it? If you want to play with the higher tiers of tech... just finish the mission and start unlocking the parts with some big science return missions. I managed a 50k science Jool mission hitting a few moons and a bunch of science collection. Someone with many more hours than me probably could do more, faster. I'm not clear on what about the duna mission and this progression is holding you back if you're so experienced to be able to trivially complete this mission and move on.

I certainly can't speak for anyone else, and I'm sure the devs have studied the reasons more throughly, but I never left Kerbin's SOI in KSP1 because they game provided no incentive or reason for doing so. I was able to unlock nearly all parts from just the mun and minmus. After that, I found more entertainment just building odd things here and there until I got bored. I missed out on a lot of interesting engineering that is required once you go to another planet. The wonder of new planets alone wasn't enough without corresponding new tech to earn despite the fact that there were new challenges to be had. Part of this was due to the fact that I had no undertanding what these challenges involved or how fun it would be to attempt to overcome them.

The missions and the constraint of science requiring you to progress beyond Kerbin was precisely the incentive I needed. I see great potential in this being effective for other new or limited experience players as well. I imagine they collect this kind of feedback whenever possible when they observe new players. I think there's room to improve the tutorials to help bridge the gap to interplanetary, perhaps including a few more missions leading up to it or by providing some additional side missions for some extra science to work with, but it seems completely fair what they provide you to work with to complete the mission and move on.

I would expect an experienced player like yourself would find this very easy and quickly move past it. That's in part why I find it odd that you have any objections at all regarding it. If anything, being forced back to a limited set of tech should be a refreshing challenge compared to over a thousand hours with all the best tech at your disposal.

[Hanuman]

From that last post it kinda sounds like you were playing the first game in Science mode but not much time in Career.  
 

The difference between the two?   Missions.   In your own narrative, you played the game how you enjoyed it,  and had no reason at all to go interplanetary.   That sounds like you didn’t have missions enabled to have any suggested, and thus weren’t playing in Career mode.  Is that what happened?

If you were playing in Career and had missions pointing you towards interplanetary objectives that you wholly ignored, then weren’t you simply playing the way you wanted?

In one of the other tech tree threads there’s a guy talking about having soft locked himself in the tech tree in the first game, and having done so again in this one.   As you wrote, it IS possible in the first game to unlock practically the entire tech tree in the first game before going interplanetary.  What you left out is that you cannot do that by accident.   You have to purposely farm those biomes in order to do it.  And still, people are talking about having soft locked themselves.   

Here in KSP2 though we actually have missons in Science mode, which I feel like is a positive inclusion for the exact reason that you’re stating.   I have a lingering doubt that you would have never have left Kerbin SOI in the first game if there were a mission sitting there waiting and blinking saying “Go to Duna.”.  I think you would have gone to check the mission off your list and to see why.

Now, since you seem to keep trying to imagine my motive, please allow me to help.   I’m trying to think to include as many players that I can.  To include people with different playstyles all finding their own legs.  To not make this a game for thousand hour players or hundred hour players or zero hour players, but as many people as can be hooked by the imagination of flight and space flight and exploration as we can get.  I’m trying my best to think about just logical consequences of what I am seeing.   And what I am seeing is that they think that MK3 airframe parts are more overpowered than SWERV engines.   So for the guys that want to build shuttles, well buckle up and run all over the Kerbol system so you too can access this 40 year old design.  That there is no way for a player that soft locks themself on this tree to easily dig themselves free and continue their progress at their pace.

Lastly, and I’m just gonna say it, we still have career mode to look forward to, where we can still see game difficulties get really tuned.  This is still just Science mode, and if anything it should be pretty easy to unlock the tech tree in this game mode because the largest probable audience for this particular game mode will be children.

[Meecrob]

  

On 1/27/2024 at 1:47 PM, Hanuman said:

I myself like using a fair amount of mk2 and mk3 spaceplane parts.

So do I, but in order to build rockets to do the missions I wanted, I couldn't invest in them. I ended up just cheating the science in so I could use them before I got to Jool or whatever. And I play with 200% science rewards. (Biome hopping holds no interest to me. If I can land reliably a single time per mission, I can add some Dv and land multiple times kinda thing.)

I much preferred the tiered buildings from KSP1 limiting your part count or mass for example. That forced me to get creative. The current state of exploration mode isn't bad, but after KSP1, it is a definite step backwards, to me at least.

Having said that, I must give the devs a shoutout for the aim of their attempt; trying to prevent players from sticking to the Kerbin system because interplanetary seems too daunting. Once we get a stock launch window planner and cleaned up maneuver node interface, they won't have to rely on putting most of the science behind an interplanetary "wall" to entice people to go there. Ideally, players will try out the new tools and be like "oh, so its like a Mun transfer, only I have to inject during a certain time window and spot on my orbit? That's way easier than I thought!"

I used to be that player stuck in the Kerbin system. Alexmoon's calculator is great and all, I understood it, but alt+tabbing around was asking for a crash, lol. Cool part was that when I got a new computer, it was like getting the best DLC ever.

 

19 hours ago, steveman0 said:

The main points of its design aren't to exclusively appeal to long time players.

I don't disagree, I just hope the emphasis is fair. If the devs do a good enough job with the game, all new players will soon be old timers and want to do more complex missions.

[ApexAZ]

On 1/17/2024 at 4:35 PM, regex said:

You don't need parachutes if you bring more landing fuel.

Yes, you're supposed to go outward from Kerbin to gain more science. Try missions to Duna (hard), Ike (easy), and Eve's moon Gilly (very easy). You can also get some good science from an Eve atmospheric probe, just have it land on parachutes.

Yep.  My point is that I wish there were more missions (and tutorials) to take me to these places.  

For example, I went to the big crater on Mun (forget the name) and that gave me science.  But I only knew about it because I read about it somewhere.   I wish I either had a mission, better clues, or both to help guide me to those places so it doesn't feel like pin the tail on the donkey.

Edited January 29 by ApexAZ

[regex]

3 hours ago, ApexAZ said:

Yep.  My point is that I wish there were more missions (and tutorials) to take me to these places.

Do what we did back in KSP1 before career mode and set some goals for yourself. Read some forum posts and figure out how to do an interplanetary transfer. Go to Eeloo just to see it. Make a bucket list. Explore the game.

[Meecrob]

4 hours ago, ApexAZ said:

 I wish I either had a mission, better clues, or both to help guide me to those places so it doesn't feel like pin the tail on the donkey.

Look buddy, they put a giant crater to mark the spot with all the science...maybe someone can make a mod that has a giant glowing arrow? I dunno lol!

[Hanuman]

On 1/28/2024 at 6:54 PM, Meecrob said:

  

So do I, but in order to build rockets to do the missions I wanted, I couldn't invest in them. I ended up just cheating the science in so I could use them before I got to Jool or whatever. And I play with 200% science rewards. (Biome hopping holds no interest to me. If I can land reliably a single time per mission, I can add some Dv and land multiple times kinda thing.)

I much preferred the tiered buildings from KSP1 limiting your part count or mass for example. That forced me to get creative. The current state of exploration mode isn't bad, but after KSP1, it is a definite step backwards, to me at least.

Having said that, I must give the devs a shoutout for the aim of their attempt; trying to prevent players from sticking to the Kerbin system because interplanetary seems too daunting. Once we get a stock launch window planner and cleaned up maneuver node interface, they won't have to rely on putting most of the science behind an interplanetary "wall" to entice people to go there. Ideally, players will try out the new tools and be like "oh, so its like a Mun transfer, only I have to inject during a certain time window and spot on my orbit? That's way easier than I thought!"

I used to be that player stuck in the Kerbin system. Alexmoon's calculator is great and all, I understood it, but alt+tabbing around was asking for a crash, lol. Cool part was that when I got a new computer, it was like getting the best DLC ever.

 

I don't disagree, I just hope the emphasis is fair. If the devs do a good enough job with the game, all new players will soon be old timers and want to do more complex missions.

Yeah, I get it.  I didn’t want to cheat it in, or just push through though.  Instead I started poking around to see just how much Science was gonna be available, and then when I saw it like this I came and started reading posts, wondering if I was the only one who felt this was off from what I was wanting to see.  Playing with just regular science returns, I wanted to see the game the way they intended it, and for probe and spaceplane guys, yikes.

I’m all for devs wanting to help players explore every inch of the game available to us, and I’m liking the missions so far.  I just think there’s some room for improvement and that experimentation and diversity of how people explore and play should be fiercely protected.  I think it’s the secret to what made KSP unique.  I’d like to see mission improvements too, such as online players logged in with an account (which will likely also occur with multiplayer) also having the weekly forum challenges pop up as mission offerings, and a section for a randomized side mission offering like the first game would be ideal and tick some replay ability and community boxes.

Also, very much looking forward to a launch window planner myself.  Would be cool to see it as part of a better Trip Planner in the VAB.  i’m thinking of a delta v calculator that would work more like a flowchart.  Showing the possible translations as clickable options added to a stack, while keeping a running tabulation at the bottom.  There could then be the next launch window shown for the first target SOI chosen in the calculator. 

Also would really like to see rotor craft return and the programmable parts from the KSP1 DLC, as well as more done with aquatic and even airship parts.  A functional ballast tank part could get us both airships and submarines.  We do have a boat dock after all, now.

[Oak7603]

On 1/28/2024 at 7:50 PM, Hanuman said:

... In one of the other tech tree threads there’s a guy talking about having soft locked himself in the tech tree in the first game, and having done so again in this one...

That was me. So in my current play through of KSP2, I still have 66000 points of science needed to unlock everything. I only have 30000 of mission rewards left and having completed the final main mission, I don't think there will be any new secondary missions. If that's the case, I have to find 33000 science around the Kerbolar system. I probably have 10000 science with Kerbals stranded around the Jool system and on Moho that I can't rescue due to my (in)ability level (and game breaking dV bugs when builidng multiple crafts). I am planning on trying to build a planetary science ship that can visit every planet and complete all science missions in one go but that seems like well past my ability level. Maybe, the system should have been  a mixture of science to unlock the tech tree but other rewards or achievements for exploration. That way you could max out the tech tree earlier, and then be rewarded with achievements for exploring. Of course, we don't have that system so I'll just keep trying to git gud. Or just starting again, which is what I normally do.

[epaga]

A single Eeloo mission doing surface samples, orbital survey, and radiation science will easily give you between 30-45k science depending on how many biomes you can visit.

Jool sniffing + orbital survey? Another easy 20k.

Land on a couple Jool moons and you're done. (and that's without doing any more missions which would work too, I suppose!)

Edited January 30 by epaga

[Oak7603]

Is that on normal science rewards? I am in Eeloo orbit right now although this was just a flyby so no surface landing possible. So far I've done high orbit crew observations, environment data, environment samples, radiation measurements, orbital survey, and orbital survey samples, as well as low orbit crew observations, environment data, environment samples, and radiation measurements and that is only 4600 science in total. I got 8000 for doing the Eeloo SOI mission. Where is there another 26000-41000 science at least?

 

[steveman0]

3 hours ago, Oak7603 said:

Is that on normal science rewards? I am in Eeloo orbit right now although this was just a flyby so no surface landing possible. So far I've done high orbit crew observations, environment data, environment samples, radiation measurements, orbital survey, and orbital survey samples, as well as low orbit crew observations, environment data, environment samples, and radiation measurements and that is only 4600 science in total. I got 8000 for doing the Eeloo SOI mission. Where is there another 26000-41000 science at least?

 

On the surface of course.  The vast majority of science comes from surface biome collections with the most coming from the largest science instrument you need to land with (radiation scanner).  You're supposed to explore the planets, not just pass by for a look at them!  The biggest rewards come from the biggest efforts, and there is no greater effort than to land and return at multiple biomes.  Based on rough estimates I've seen for the total collectable science, there's something like 2x the amount of science to collect from all planets and biomes than is necessary to complete all the research tree without doing any missions.

[ncw33]

Agreed, there's abundant science at the default reward scaling. I finished Tier 4 and have maybe ~30K science extra that I can't spend, all from a sample-return trip to Dres, plus all the mission-derived science (so landing & returning from Mün, Minmus, Duna, Tylo - bringing back science since I was there). And I haven't visited Eve, Moho, or Eeloo at all yet.

[dmsilev]

13 hours ago, Hanuman said:

Yeah, I get it.  I didn’t want to cheat it in, or just push through though.  Instead I started poking around to see just how much Science was gonna be available, and then when I saw it like this I came and started reading posts, wondering if I was the only one who felt this was off from what I was wanting to see.  Playing with just regular science returns, I wanted to see the game the way they intended it, and for probe and spaceplane guys, yikes.

I'm a "probe" guy, at least as far as getting started with interplanetary missions goes, and I'm not feeling "yikes" at all. I did the mission sequence as far as the Minmus Monument and hit the major biomes on both moons  with crewed rockets, and then switched to probes.  Tier 2 gear is enough to send orbiter probes pretty much everywhere, plus some landers; having orbited just a few planets (Duna and Moho so far, with probes en route to Jool and Dres) is enough to basically finish Tier 2 even without doing any sample-return missions.  Once those are done, I'll think about crewed missions. 

[Hanuman]

8 hours ago, Oak7603 said:

That was me. So in my current play through of KSP2, I still have 66000 points of science needed to unlock everything. I only have 30000 of mission rewards left and having completed the final main mission, I don't think there will be any new secondary missions. If that's the case, I have to find 33000 science around the Kerbolar system. I probably have 10000 science with Kerbals stranded around the Jool system and on Moho that I can't rescue due to my (in)ability level (and game breaking dV bugs when builidng multiple crafts). I am planning on trying to build a planetary science ship that can visit every planet and complete all science missions in one go but that seems like well past my ability level. Maybe, the system should have been  a mixture of science to unlock the tech tree but other rewards or achievements for exploration. That way you could max out the tech tree earlier, and then be rewarded with achievements for exploring. Of course, we don't have that system so I'll just keep trying to git gud. Or just starting again, which is what I normally do.

You sound like you’re already plenty gud to me, scrub.  I kinda feel like even performing flyby transits of multiple system bodies should qualify a player as being able to build missions with all the parts they want.

What I would like to see is a tech tree that is built with a bit more curation and thought.  Spaceplane frames aren’t overpowered, and right now there’s absolutely nothing that differentiates the science cost other than node placement.  Maybe price nodes according to what they contain and what they do rather than just size and how far down the tree it is.   That way we wouldn’t see things like 2300 science for a shielded docking port and 2900 science for a deep space fission reactor and then 6000 for a cargo ramp.  One of these things are not like the other two.  I also don’t think it’s super cool to put the rover arm experiment at the end of T2 instead of the beginning.   Players can be inspired to go and do bigger without allowing these kinds of roadblocks.   Even if the only budging that’s given is allowing biome science to be repeatable so that players CAN farm up the parts they want to build with is preferable to this.  It’s still not great, but it would at least stop that dead end from appearing for people.

Dead Ends and KSP do not mix.  Everything, Everywhere, Blowing Up All at Once means that you’re just getting started.    Also it won a couple Oscars I think.

[Hanuman]

51 minutes ago, dmsilev said:

I'm a "probe" guy, at least as far as getting started with interplanetary missions goes, and I'm not feeling "yikes" at all. I did the mission sequence as far as the Minmus Monument and hit the major biomes on both moons  with crewed rockets, and then switched to probes.  Tier 2 gear is enough to send orbiter probes pretty much everywhere, plus some landers; having orbited just a few planets (Duna and Moho so far, with probes en route to Jool and Dres) is enough to basically finish Tier 2 even without doing any sample-return missions.  Once those are done, I'll think about crewed missions. 

Yup, but the part that allows your probes to gather samples for returns is buried at the end of T2 making it a reward for going far enough, rather than a tool to allow guys that like to build probes science gathering parity. 

So, why?   I don’t see the sense of it, and it actually seems to (after a point) discourage people from experimenting with unlocks when they aren’t quite certain whether or not their choice is going to hold much value to them?

Which, again seems counter intuitive to what you want to see out of this game mode.  It’s the Easy game mode for kids where they can’t lose.  Should be pretty easy for them to be unlocking parts to play with.

[kdaviper]

12 hours ago, Oak7603 said:

That was me. So in my current play through of KSP2, I still have 66000 points of science needed to unlock everything. I only have 30000 of mission rewards left and having completed the final main mission, I don't think there will be any new secondary missions. If that's the case, I have to find 33000 science around the Kerbolar system. I probably have 10000 science with Kerbals stranded around the Jool system and on Moho that I can't rescue due to my (in)ability level (and game breaking dV bugs when builidng multiple crafts). I am planning on trying to build a planetary science ship that can visit every planet and complete all science missions in one go but that seems like well past my ability level. Maybe, the system should have been  a mixture of science to unlock the tech tree but other rewards or achievements for exploration. That way you could max out the tech tree earlier, and then be rewarded with achievements for exploring. Of course, we don't have that system so I'll just keep trying to git gud. Or just starting again, which is what I normally do.

Have you been to dres?

If not I would highly recommend it. Very lucrative with a modest size biome hopper.

[dmsilev]

1 hour ago, Hanuman said:

Yup, but the part that allows your probes to gather samples for returns is buried at the end of T2 making it a reward for going far enough, rather than a tool to allow guys that like to build probes science gathering parity. 

You mean the sample arm? I had that unlocked before sending out the wave of probes; all of the landers I built had one. One-way missions using it don't have the same sort of rewards as an actual sample-return mission, but do yield some science. 

Haven't decided yet whether I want to do probe-based return missions or crew-based as a next step, but the point I'm making is that I'm not feeling limited by the tech tree and points availability, at least so far. Did find it odd that the medium-class SRB is located all the way at the exit node to Tier 2, so strap-on boosters are really really pointless for pretty much all of Tier 2, but other than that, seems ok to me. 

[ApexAZ]

On 1/29/2024 at 2:07 AM, Meecrob said:

Look buddy, they put a giant crater to mark the spot with all the science...maybe someone can make a mod that has a giant glowing arrow? I dunno lol!

Look buddy, I'm new to KSP (barely played KSP1) and just posting my feedback as to why I started to lose interest.  They obviously want to make the game more accessible to users like me and I'm just trying to point out that more is needed.  I'm not exactly wanting to explore barren planets in hopes I find some science to help me progress.  I need purpose.  I've already stopped playing as a result.  Anyway, I've said my piece!

Edited January 31 by ApexAZ

[Oak7603]

Well I have to say I'm converted. I built a rocket that would get to Dres with a multi-hop science lander flown by only one Kerbal, I visited 4 areas in one go running radiation observations as well as the normal science parts and the Kerbal collecting science samples and even without running any orbital science (forgot to add that bit to the build) I managed to get over 45000 science not including the 8000 mission reward.

Looking back now, I think I just didn't have the parts or the ability but it was actually alright and so I have 15000 science left to get with plenty of places to visit.

[ArmchairGravy]

I do a custom game and max out all of the sliders, but I still think a) there's not enough biomes per planet and b) the cost scaling of the tree is nuts. I don't care what you're doing, 1800 a whack adds up quick. I'll never get into late game because I have other things to do besides scrape every nook and cranny for points. On the very easiest of settings.

[ncw33]

Really? With the default science scaling, you'll max out the tech tree if you do the main missions (ie not the hard ones like Eve) + one biome from Eeloo, Dres, one or two moons of Jool (not all).

You really don't need to scrape every nook and cranny - one landing per celestial body is more than enough to complete the tech tree.

[Oak7603]

5 hours ago, ArmchairGravy said:

I do a custom game and max out all of the sliders, but I still think a) there's not enough biomes per planet and b) the cost scaling of the tree is nuts. I don't care what you're doing, 1800 a whack adds up quick. I'll never get into late game because I have other things to do besides scrape every nook and cranny for points. On the very easiest of settings.

I felt like this too but genuinely after today I have seen that it's not the case and with 1 decent mission to one of the further out planets can easily net you a Kerbal ton of science. 

[Meecrob]

On 1/30/2024 at 10:02 PM, ApexAZ said:

Look buddy, I'm new to KSP (barely played KSP1) and just posting my feedback as to why I started to lose interest.  They obviously want to make the game more accessible to users like me and I'm just trying to point out that more is needed.  I'm not exactly wanting to explore barren planets in hopes I find some science to help me progress.  I need purpose.  I've already stopped playing as a result.  Anyway, I've said my piece!

I apologize for making a joke out of your situation. I agree with your point overall. I meant my joke to be one of those things where you get it like "Oh, ok, I land in big craters to get science? Cool"

So yeah, go land in craters, and other things that look interesting. They have science. Go exploring! You will probably find science points. Especially in craters...I'm not trying to rub it in, I'm being straight up, they put science in big craters. Not all of them, but think..."does this one stand out?"

Edited February 1 by Meecrob

[magnemoe]

47 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

I apologize for making a joke out of your situation. I agree with your point overall. I meant my joke to be one of those things where you get it like "Oh, ok, I land in big craters to get science? Cool"

So yeah, go land in craters, and other things that look interesting. They have science. Go exploring! You will probably find science points. Especially in craters...I'm not trying to rub it in, I'm being straight up, they put science in big craters. Not all of them, but think..."does this one stand out?"

Found that the science indicator, left top UI element and the flask to bottom  show status and biome, found this after completed two trips to the Mun  
Asked on this forum and none knew this