Colonisation/terraforming - Eve vs Duna

[Temstar]

I know on first reaction everyone says Duna is more suitable for colonisation, but is that really the correct answer? I know if instead the question is between Mars and Venus then Mars is probably the more hospitable of the two. But while both Duna and Eve are more friendly than Mars and Venus I think Eve has some advantages that may put it ahead of Duna.

Let's have a look at the numbers first, at sea level:

Duna:

atmosphere = 0.2atm

gravity = 0.3G

temperature = really cold

Delta-V to orbit = 1,380m/s

Eve:

atmosphere = 5atm

gravity = 1.7G

temperature = 150 degrees

Delta-V to orbit = 12,000m/s

Okay, so Eve's sea level looks pretty horrible. However while there's no where on Duna where you could find a place with denser atmosphere and hotter temperate, there are places on Eve that's more friendly than its sea level. On one of those 6km Eve mountain tops you have:

atmosphere = 2atm

gravity = 1.7G

temperature = 120 degrees

Delta-V to orbit = 7,500m/s

Now that's not so bad. The only real obstacle is the temperature, but 110 degrees is well within modern engineering capabilities. Aside from these Eve also have the following advantages:

• liquid water ocean - yes okay it's laced with radioactive isotopes, but water is water and you could always purify it. Having copious amount of water means you have no shortage of breathable air and source of rocket fuel. On Duna, even if subsurface frozen water exist it will be a lot more difficult to extract
  
• high availability of energy, both solar and nuclear. With plenty of cheap energy you could afford to actively cool your habitat, distil pure water and generally do stuff. Duna on the other hand with reduced solar panel efficiency due to distance to Kerbol and lack of nuclear fuel source will probably require large amount of solar panels/nuclear reactors shipped in from Kerbin to keep a colony alive.
  

So what does everyone think of the possibility of a Kerbal colony on Eve?

[RawChicken]

What about Duna in the ice caps?

[JacenHan]

We actually have no idea what the oceans are Eve are made of. It could be liquid plutonium for all we know. Also, the difference in solar power probably isn't major enough to matter here, but I haven't done many interplanetary missions so I'll let someone more experienced say something on that.

[Richy teh space man]

How can Eve have water in it's oceans if the temperature at sea level is over 100 degrees celsius?

[Yuming]

I prefer Duna because it's not impossible to take off from, adding the realism of being able to return or rescue crew, whether or not I actually do. Also, with the next update and mining, the business end of Eve will be its ocean, where the horrible heat/atmospheric pressure comes into play, as well as the pain of exporting it to a location for refining if you don't have a colony set up with these resources.(again, the big colony at sea level problem) Would you really want to have a colony where none of the crew can return?

[Temstar]

What about Duna in the ice caps?

I figure those ice caps are mostly frozen CO2, like Mars. Still even if there's frozen water ice in there it's going to be a lot harder to get it out, as opposed to just siphon it out of the sea.

We actually have no idea what the oceans are Eve are made of. It could be liquid plutonium for all we know.

I thought the resource chart said it was water and Blutonium?

I prefer Duna because it's not impossible to take off from, adding the realism of being able to return or rescue crew, whether or not I actually do. Also, with the next update and mining, the business end of Eve will be its ocean, where the horrible heat/atmospheric pressure comes into play, as well as the pain of exporting it to a location for refining if you don't have a colony set up with these resources.(again, the big colony at sea level problem) Would you really want to have a colony where none of the crew can return?

I did seriously think about this and I think the solution is simple: build Eve colonies on top of those 6km mountain tops (or even better, floating airship cities). Have a fleet of "water" trucks that drive down from the colony down to the sea level to siphon up the water and drive it back uphill to the colony.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Temstar

[NannerManCan]

Also its much easier to lift off from duna if the kerbals ever wanted to return home

[allmappedout]

How can Eve have water in it's oceans if the temperature at sea level is over 100 degrees celsius?

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html

Higher pressure causes water to stay liquid even beyond its normal boiling point. Not sure of the exact point (guessing that 2atm probably isn't enough to counterbalance the 50 degree temperature difference), but it's not impossible.

[The Jedi Master]

Also its much easier to lift off from duna if the kerbals ever wanted to return home

You cruel little...

On a serious note, Eve may be better, but we run into the same problem as Venus, difficulty to terraform. (kerbinform?)

Oh, your'e on the Duna side? oh...

Edited April 19, 2013 by The Jedi Master

[Elemental]

I am hopping on the bandwagon... the cost to lift off from Eve is prohibitive.

[Itsdavyjones]

Duna all the way. It would be easier to work there since you will not be crushed by the gravity, nor will you be boiled. Is easier to heat a suit in the cold than cool a suit in that high of a temperature.

[Flixxbeatz]

I am hopping on the bandwagon... the cost to lift off from Eve is prohibitive.

If you don't consider Kerbin return and easier entry, Eve is the best choice. Remember - What enters Eve, stays on Eve unless it's something built to pierce through its thick atmosphere (IRL equivalent would be putting a base on Venus). For practicality and availability of return missions, Duna is the place to be.

We actually have no idea what the oceans are Eve are made of. It could be liquid plutonium for all we know.

Allow me to find it out (or atleast, give further clues). This thing is designed to softly land on any body of water on Eve and pierce through the bottom

[Ringer]

Speaking of Venus, the wikipedia article has a lot of interesting stuff about trying to land probes on it. It seems no one had any idea its surface was going to be so oppressive; the first few died in descent, returning information that indicated disgustingly high temperature and pressure.

Eve is nothing compared to Venus.

Atmospheric pressure at the surface is 92 times greater than Earth's, similar to being 1km underwater; you would hardly be able to walk through it.

Surface temperature is over 462 C, hot enough to melt lead, and is more or less unvarying.

Above the cloud layer there are constant hurricane-force winds and sulfuric acid.

VENUS WILL ****ING KILL YOU IN YOUR SLEEP

[Scotius]

Let's not forget that newly established colony for a looong time will be dependant on the homeworld for...well, about everything. Sure, you can get plenty of energy and water on Eve (probably), but the cost of shipping everything from clothes to medicines to computers from Kerbin would break the back of every space program. You would have to be insanely desperate to continuously sink ships and crews into hole-without-return. Duna is less demanding in this matter.

[OrbitusII]

Duna is a lot better in my opinion. Lower gravity, so easy to return from. You also have to consider that it is a lot easier to add atmosphere than it is to remove atmosphere. It's still hard, but Duna is at least doable, not to mention that Eve is essentially Venus, so if Squad implements clouds then solar power will be out of the question.

[Ford_Prefect]

You would need a pretty large pipeline for the water...

edit: Venus wouldnt even wait until you sleep. She just kills you.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Ford_Prefect

[Zephram Kerman]

Eve is not, technically, a one-way trip... especially if your spaceport is on that 6km mountain plateau, as Temstar proposes. The return trip does require a lot of fuel, of course, but the plentiful energy makes this cheap to manufacture. On the other hand, a colony should be permanent. What is the point of building it temporarily? The annual cost of supply ships would be less and less expensive as the colony becomes more self-sufficient.

It all boils down to motivation. All we really need to suddenly overcome any obstacle is a possible return on investment.

[Flixxbeatz]

Eve is not, technically, a one-way trip... especially if your spaceport is on that 6km mountain plateau, as Temstar proposes. The return trip does require a lot of fuel, of course, but the plentiful energy makes this cheap to manufacture.

Yes it's possible, but practically speaking, every mission to Eve would definitely be a one-way trip.

Particularly if your computer is not that powerful enough.

[M5000]

Why would you even think of Eve as a legitimate option to colonize?

Colonies should be easily accessible and return-able by craft. Evacuating a colony should not take several ships, unless you REALLY have a lot of Kerbals. You need to be able to make frequent stops. Eve's delta-V requirements are simply not sufficient to maintain anything other than a prison.

Let's talk about reality here for a minute. I'm going to remove myself from the KSP limitations currently in play, and pretend like we're actually planning a real mission. Because that kind of stuff is fun. We're going to assume that Duna is a very close Mars-representing planet, and Eve closely represents Venus.

So, here's some of the preliminary problems you're going to face with Eve, and why my argument is massively in favor of Duna...

-You're not going to have very much light. Even though you're closer to the sun, that atmosphere is going to pretty much stop any visible light coming in. Solar panels on a realistic Eve would be useless. Conversely, if you don't have light, that's another power requirement if you're going to do hydroponics to sustain breathing air and some sort of food for your crew. So, uh, that.

-The pressure of the atmosphere would be enough to crush pretty much anything. You'd need some VERY resilient vessels, and crew would pretty much never be allowed to go EVA unless you had some kind of porcelain/glass (acid in the air, by the way) Newt Suit. Also, this alone would eliminate heat from the equation as a power generation method.

-The only power generation you'd be able to do is a nuclear reactor or radiothermal generator. The nuclear reactor would be very large and heavy, and would need another launch to get it there, most likely. The RTG would be lighter by itself, but if left alone would immediately irradiate crew members to death. You would need to either keep it very far away and run large cables to it, or you would need to encase it in some sort of (inherently heavy) radiation shield... So uh, good luck finding power. Actually, you may be able to use a wind turbine, just make sure it doesn't break in the high winds or you'll be entirely screwed.

-Re-entry would have to be done incredibly carefully, the g-forces encountered would easily kill crew if you didn't purposely try to speed yourself up to counteract the atmosphere so that you slow down slower. Parachute landings are a no-go until you get to about 50m/s or so., because they create too many G's. Also, the heat would probably melt the vessel before you got low enough to deploy your chutes anyhow...

-Where are you going to get water? If you ship it with them and make them recycle their own waste water, that's more mass you have to send in and properly decelerate. If you decide to mine it, you're going to have to have some kind of mining rover that can extract it from the oceans, again, more weight to decelerate. This rover would have to be able to traverse VERY steep inclinations to reach the water, because your landing spot would HAVE to be on top of some kind of mountain, else return would not be practical. Once you extract the water, it would also be very salty from the sulfuric acid reacting with the minerals in the water and causing sulfates. So, there's another power draw.

-Food? If you send them with hydroponics, that's a huge power drain. If you send them with a limited supply, that's not sustainable and is sadistic.

-Return or resupply/crew changes. These would require a massive, ungainly rocket with tons of delta-V

-Heat. Very much heat, but so much pressure that it can't really be used effectively.

Here's some of the points about landing on a realistic Duna:

-Solar power is a viable option. Solar power is very lightweight and safe around crew members.

-Atmospheric re-entry would be much more viable, as the G-forces produced would not be deadly, nor would the atmosphere be thick enough to cause considerable heat. Landings can be done entirely by parachute if there are enough of them.

-Leaving the surface would be much easier due to lower atmosphere and gravity.

-Water could be extracted from the ice caps in small amounts, but separating it from the mostly carbon dioxide ice would be complicated.

-Anything that was a threat on Kerbin to getting to orbit or doing atmospheric shenanigans is reduced. So is anything that's a benefit so there's that.

Duna is the best place for a colony of what you said. Personally, though, my prime candidate for a colony has always been and always will be Gilly.

-Lowest delta-V budget to get to the mothering SOI (Eve).

-Gilly would likely have ice on it, as it is said to be a captured asteroid, and many asteroids contain some ice.

-Any atmosphere a realistic Gilly would have would be absolutely miniscule.

-Descent and return take incredibly small amounts of delta-V.

-Close proximity to the sun would make solar power a very good power generation method.

-Low gravity so base construction would be safer.

-Crew would have to exercise to maintain muscle mass, as Gilly is essentially as low-gravity as a space station.

-You still get to look at Eve.

A realistic Eve (and the current Eve, really) should be meant for nothing more than a destination for one expedition, or as a prison planet for life-sentences. It just is not practical as a colony planet...

[azazel1024]

I figure those ice caps are mostly frozen CO2, like Mars. Still even if there's frozen water ice in there it's going to be a lot harder to get it out, as opposed to just siphon it out of the sea.

I thought the resource chart said it was water and Blutonium?

I did seriously think about this and I think the solution is simple: build Eve colonies on top of those 6km mountain tops (or even better, floating airship cities). Have a fleet of "water" trucks that drive down from the colony down to the sea level to siphon up the water and drive it back uphill to the colony.

Mars' ice caps are composed of both water and dry ice. The northern cap is primarily water ice with a layer up to 1m thick of frozen CO2 in the winter time ONLY. The southern cap is also mostly water ice, but it has a permenant layer 8m thick of frozen CO2 covering it.

So most of what you find, if you scrape down a bit is drinkable water (watch out for the martian viruses ). During each hemispheres winter time approximately a 1m layer of dry ice is deposited consisting of about 20-30% of the entire atmosphere's content of CO2. In the spring time, it melts over a period of a few days generating enormous wind storms (400+km/hr) and massive, often times global, dust storms.

One thing to keep in mind though, 400+km/hr is frightening still, but with the atmosphere being only 1% as dense, the wind force is actually only equivelent to about 15km/hr on Earth at sea level. However, very light particles can still be transported at enormous velocities. That means you are going to get lots of etching on things like exposed plastics and stuff.

[czokletmuss]

I made a table for all the celestial bodies colonisation possibilities some time ago:

[Holo]

I have an idea: hybrid rocket/zeppelin craft for Eve ascent. To get your crew home, you zeppelin up to the tenuous upper atmosphere, go up into orbit with a relatively small rocket, and dock with the interplanetary cruiser for your ride home.

Also, on Gilly, couldn't you use a spinning centrifuge? Gilly's gravity is so negligible a centrifuge should work without any weird forces from the moon below.

EDIT: I've decided to do a quantitative analysis of all the bodies of the solar system. Gathering data from KSP for where the wiki misses it, and then I'll be able to answer the age old question of "Where should Jeb retire to?". The prevailing opinion is Eeloo, but that's just because everyone wants to be as far from the explosions as possible.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Holo

[czokletmuss]

I have an idea: hybrid rocket/zeppelin craft for Eve ascent. To get your crew home, you zeppelin up to the tenuous upper atmosphere, go up into orbit with a relatively small rocket, and dock with the interplanetary cruiser for your ride home.

This is exactly what I built

And to stay on topic: I too think that the Duna is the best place for a permanent settlement. All things aside, trip to Eve is a one way ticket unless you want to build a hybrid zeppelin rocket which weighs more then 30t. On the other hand, travel to Duna is very easy and very safe. You can easily build a space station above Duna, which with the low requirements for the SSTO on this planet and the presence of Ike makes the Duna the absolutely best place in the whole solar system.

Here is you Eve:

As comfortable as the nuclear reactor cooling chamber. Imagine walking on the bottom of the boiling acid lake (actually temperature and the pressure will be much higher). Enjoy your stay!

Edited April 19, 2013 by czokletmuss

[Holo]

I just checked, and it looks like Gilly is a nice and warm 41.38 C (it says 0 in-game, but that's because the thermometer measures atmospheric temperature. I worked out this value from the luminosity and distance from the Sun). Much more pleasant that the sweltering 150 C summers on Eve.

[The Jedi Master]

This is exactly what I built

And to stay on topic: I too think that the Duna is the best place for a permanent settlement. All things aside, trip to Eve is a one way ticket unless you want to build a hybrid zeppelin rocket which weighs more then 30t. On the other hand, travel to Duna is very easy and very safe. You can easily build a space station above Duna, which with the low requirements for the SSTO on this planet and the presence of Ike makes the Duna the absolutely best place in the whole solar system.

Here is you Eve:

As comfortable as the nuclear reactor cooling chamber. Imagine walking on the bottom of the boiling acid lake (actually temperature and the pressure will be much higher). Enjoy your stay!

That's Eve, only the ship wouldn't get off the planet.