[0.22] B9 Aerospace Pack / R4.0c / New pods, IVAs, engines, fuselages & structures

[Katalliaan]

Those SABRE engines/intakes look sexy. I'd say that I can't wait to play with them, but I still haven't played with all the other fun toys you've given us!

[jfull]

After installing this mod, I can build with all the parts in the hangars just fine, but when I try to fly anything (even stock ships) I get a "KSP.exe has stopped working" error, not even a normal KSP crash.

What could the problem be? Any other mods known to conflict with this?

[Itsdavyjones]

Sabers...... Dat new saber smell.

[Mastodon]

Best part about these engines is their length. Makes them look a lot better when they are radially attached.

[Gilgamesh]

I just installed this mod, in conjunction with FAR, and I can't seem to find the FAR compatibility parts. If someone could tell me where to find them, that would be awesome.

[Netris]

I just installed this mod, in conjunction with FAR, and I can't seem to find the FAR compatibility parts. If someone could tell me where to find them, that would be awesome.

There're included in the .cfg

[shadowsutekh]

Bac9 you're too good to us. Any insider info on those engines? are they all strictly atmosphere based or are some rocket engines?

[WhatsThisButtonDo]

Lack Luster Labs. A mod with part to make bases ou starships http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/24906-LLL-Lack-Luster-Labs-0-095/page4

Thanks Netris, I didn't know about Lack Luster Labs, just downloaded the files.

[RRoan]

Is there any possibility of getting some landing gear?

[ksheep]

whatever happened to the IVAs for the crew cabins or was that a different mod?

The IVA is there for some of the capsules, but not all. Two of the capsules borrow from IVAs of stock parts, including one of the stock IVAs that isn't complete.

[Frostiken]

Weight is essential to control the breakability of parts in the current KSP physics model. Large parts with small weight won't work properly and your craft will constantly snap. I don't see much of a problem here, though, as with large volumes come large amounts of fuel and with lots of fuel you can allow yourself to use powerful propulsion.

Uh, the problem is - and I mentioned this the first time your pack came out - is that your parts are huge and a massive waste of internal space.

For example, the S2 crewtanks. Apparently I'm shipping Kerbals to orbit in Dubai Airlines' First Class, because you're telling me you can only pack six of the little green bastards in there? I was expecting about eighteen. Furthermore, all of your adapters and 'body parts' are absolutely enormous, and most of them inexplicably no fuel or anything inside. This means that I end up with ships that weigh as much as a neutron star and are a quarter the length of the runway. All this weight should at least be worth something. Where's my wing internal fuel storage? Why didn't the engineers cram that body piece with monopropellant and batteries?

I've been screwing around for about two hours and I've yet to build an S2 ship that takes advantage of the 6m crew tank *and* doesn't shake itself to pieces on the runway. Most of them are incapable of even getting off the runway in the first place.

Actually I don't think I've gotten a single S2 build off the runway at all, it just starts wobbling and yawing uncontrollably.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Frostiken

[a.g.]

Use more struts!

However, it seems that with these big planes and huge control surfaces any stock ASAS and avionics does more damage than good; it is much more stable if you just use manual trim and/or MechJeb. I wonder if maybe the ASAS parts that come with this pack should have their parameters tweaked to suit bigger planes.

[Mail_Manof_Doom]

Uh, the problem is - and I mentioned this the first time your pack came out - is that your parts are huge and a massive waste of internal space.

For example, the S2 crewtanks. Apparently I'm shipping Kerbals to orbit in Dubai Airlines' First Class, because you're telling me you can only pack six of the little green bastards in there? I was expecting about eighteen. Furthermore, all of your adapters and 'body parts' are absolutely enormous, and most of them inexplicably no fuel or anything inside. This means that I end up with ships that weigh as much as a neutron star and are a quarter the length of the runway. All this weight should at least be worth something. Where's my wing internal fuel storage? Why didn't the engineers cram that body piece with monopropellant and batteries?

I've been screwing around for about two hours and I've yet to build an S2 ship that takes advantage of the 6m crew tank *and* doesn't shake itself to pieces on the runway. Most of them are incapable of even getting off the runway in the first place.

Actually I don't think I've gotten a single S2 build off the runway at all, it just starts wobbling and yawing uncontrollably.

I Have to agree with Frostiken here, your parts aren't balanced very well. They are brilliant but it is hard to use them. I've tried to make a shuttle that uses your VTOL engines but you need so much fuel to make them any use other than on Kerbin, therefore you need more VTOL engines. There are only so many you can cram on before your ship destroys itself or uses all the fuel to get off the ground. Maybe you could create a bigger VTOL engine for the larger ships and maybe one that can be radially placed.

[bac9]

Uh, the problem is - and I mentioned this the first time your pack came out - is that your parts are huge and a massive waste of internal space.

For example, the S2 crewtanks. Apparently I'm shipping Kerbals to orbit in Dubai Airlines' First Class, because you're telling me you can only pack six of the little green bastards in there? I was expecting about eighteen.

Even six kerbals is quite large amount and complete overkill for most situations. There is no way to conveniently control large crews in the game, and being able to carry all personnel of your space program in one tiny spaceplane isn't particularly challenging or interesting. Additionally, if we're talking about changing length instead of changing crew capacity, there is no point in making fuselage sections shorter as KSP physics will make your craft increasingly unstable the shorter your fuselage components are.

Furthermore, all of your adapters and 'body parts' are absolutely enormous, and most of them inexplicably no fuel or anything inside. This means that I end up with ships that weigh as much as a neutron star and are a quarter the length of the runway. All this weight should at least be worth something. Where's my wing internal fuel storage?

Wings can't be used for fuel storage because KSP handles fuel flow from them improperly, affecting radially attached engines. As about the weight of the structural parts, I repeat, we are using values calculated in conjunction with other stuff like crash tolerances to work around the physics in KSP and ensure craft won't fall apart every minute. You can't do anything about that until physics/aerodynamic model in KSP will be changed. Fortunately, there is no difference in difficulty between those new fuselage systems and tiny stock ones, as with the size comes the fuel to feed more than enough engines and attach more than enough wings to make a very good plane. Check how controllable and easy to fly D-175 example craft is, for instance.

Why didn't the engineers cram that body piece with monopropellant and batteries?

Because there are dedicated part for that and any kind of fuel automatically adds additional weight so you will end up with even heavier part if you will start cramming resources into it. Additionally, not everyone needs a particular type of resources, so we will have to clutter everything with half a dozen types of every adapter filled with different types of fuel, which is not really desirable.

I've been screwing around for about two hours and I've yet to build an S2 ship that takes advantage of the 6m crew tank *and* doesn't shake itself to pieces on the runway. Most of them are incapable of even getting off the runway in the first place. Actually I don't think I've gotten a single S2 build off the runway at all, it just starts wobbling and yawing uncontrollably.

Sounds like a design problem and not a part problem. Example crafts easily take off from half the runway or less and they are not using any kind of cheaty wing spamming or other tricks. Check them for ideas.

I've tried to make a shuttle that uses your VTOL engines but you need so much fuel to make them any use other than on Kerbin, therefore you need more VTOL engines. There are only so many you can cram on before your ship destroys itself or uses all the fuel to get off the ground. Maybe you could create a bigger VTOL engine for the larger ships and maybe one that can be radially placed.

Currently available VTOL engine is using LFO and was made to operate in vacuum, so using them on atmospheric craft is quite a waste of fuel and hardly practical. We will be adding specially balanced atmospheric VTOL to next releases though.

Edited April 28, 2013 by bac9

[Guest]

Can you also add some in-line docking ports? Your parts look awesome, but you either have to hide your port inside the bay (if you have one), or mess up the looks of the plane.

[BASKABAS]

About that sexy sabre engine it is not new just real life engine in game check this out . If it is like in real life I will love this engine as it uses rocket fuel when it is in space like rocket engine and in atmosphere it uses same fuel + air intake instead of oxidizer for atmospheric flight it is just rocket engine and turbo fan in one piece . It is used in Skylon SSTO that currently is under research http://www.scifiideas.com/related/what-is-skylon/

[BASKABAS]

Bac9 I like that you use real life things in your ideas but have some questions if it is not spoilers could you tell us will the Air intake of that engine be movable (toggle) so that in atmosphere it would be like air intake and in space you can select toggle and that will close air intake + move it forward so it will make nosecone of rocket like real does?

[RC1062]

Nice engine! Would it be possible to download only the new parts? My internet is terribly slow, and if it could be split so I don't have to download everything again that would be great! PS: The last update to your pack took about 45 mins on my connection.

[Gryphorim]

Yeah I think I asked this already, but a series of inline docking ports would be awesome, I'd personally like a telescoping port from an inline 2.5m part, to fit with the stock crewtank, housed in the cargo bay of my spaceplane

[TheCardinal]

Uh, the problem is - and I mentioned this the first time your pack came out - is that your parts are huge and a massive waste of internal space.

For example, the S2 crewtanks. Apparently I'm shipping Kerbals to orbit in Dubai Airlines' First Class, because you're telling me you can only pack six of the little green bastards in there? I was expecting about eighteen. Furthermore, all of your adapters and 'body parts' are absolutely enormous, and most of them inexplicably no fuel or anything inside. This means that I end up with ships that weigh as much as a neutron star and are a quarter the length of the runway. All this weight should at least be worth something. Where's my wing internal fuel storage? Why didn't the engineers cram that body piece with monopropellant and batteries?

I've been screwing around for about two hours and I've yet to build an S2 ship that takes advantage of the 6m crew tank *and* doesn't shake itself to pieces on the runway. Most of them are incapable of even getting off the runway in the first place.

Actually I don't think I've gotten a single S2 build off the runway at all, it just starts wobbling and yawing uncontrollably.

Frankly, I don't understand your negative attitude. By the way, all the S2 craft i designed fly excellent, but then again, i modified an adaptor to contain fuel. It makes the part more heavy but now it has a (double) function.

[Munstation]

I made a little 3d Set for one of the cockpits.

[bac9]

Bac9 you're too good to us. Any insider info on those engines? are they all strictly atmosphere based or are some rocket engines?

It works just like the real one, with two modes and all that fancy stuff. And it's not just my work, Taverius was preparing them for a long time, - I have just provided an art pass to make them pretty.

Bac9 I like that you use real life things in your ideas but have some questions if it is not spoilers could you tell us will the Air intake of that engine be movable (toggle) so that in atmosphere it would be like air intake and in space you can select toggle and that will close air intake + move it forward so it will make nosecone of rocket like real does?

Yes, you can. I think we will use the plugin to connect the state of intake to speed (it should be 100% opened on the ground, 20% opened before transition from ramjets, and fully closed on speeds close to orbital. But even if that plugin won't be ready for the next release, I will still leave the animation as simple right-click toggle for roleplaying purposes.

Edited April 28, 2013 by bac9

[comham]

Those are some glorious looking engines. You've got the skills! You've got so much skills they highlight the inconsistencies and shortfalls of the KSP engine.

[BASKABAS]

It works just like the real one, with two modes and all that fancy stuff. And it's not just my work, Taverius was preparing them for a long time, - I have just provided an art pass to make them pretty.

Yes, you can. I think we will use the plugin to connect the state of intake to speed (it should be 100% opened on the ground, 20% opened before transition from ramjets, and fully closed on speeds close to orbital. But even if that plugin won't be ready for the next release, I will still leave the animation as simple right-click toggle for roleplaying purposes.

Hmm but wouldn't that air intake close stuff on close to orbital speeds make it more difficult to make high atmospheric flights? As an example some time ago I have made a stock plane that could fly at about 16-18km height at speeds ~1400m/s which is orbital speed kind of.. and if flying at that speed my intake suddenly will close and I will lose air input I will be forced to use rocket mode or fly not so fast..

[Taverius]

but then again, i modified an adaptor to contain fuel.

Be careful with that.

We fixed a bug that was reported with the intake vectors pointing in the wrong direction, but there's another issue with heavy intakes, the drag made by the intake, which is a function of area and speed, is multiplied by the mass of the part by the drag model. Even in FAR, as it can't override PartModule drag.

In 2-6 thanks to ferram4 pointing out and some little-used parameters of the intake module I was able to give the S2W intake the same drag as the equivalent area of stock intakes, but if you fill up the part with fuel, it is likely (untested) that the total mass will be used rather than the dry mass, and with the appropriate amount of fuel that means the intake will have 4-5x as much drag as it should have moving forward. Believe me, I tested such values while figuring out the fix and it is a noticeable hit on your airspeed.

Hmm but wouldn't that air intake close stuff on close to orbital speeds make it more difficult to make high atmospheric flights? As an example some time ago I have made a stock plane that could fly at about 16-18km height at speeds ~1400m/s which is orbital speed kind of.. and if flying at that speed my intake suddenly will close and I will lose air input I will be forced to use rocket mode or fly not so fast..

You misunderstand. What we want to do is have the cone and rings in the intake move forward and back a little with airspeed up to the engine's max speed - which is currently ~ mach 5.4, btw - but it will only 'close' visually when you toggle the intake closed.

On a side note, these will be the first intakes in game (that I know of) where the drag decreasing when the intake isn't drawing air is appropriate ...

Edited April 28, 2013 by Taverius