Vanilla or Mods?

[Akalaël]

I don't have mutch addons, only MechJeb and Alarm Clock.

But I learned to hack the .cfg files.

I created a nuclear engine, a 2.5m size, and tried to keep it balanced.

Basically it's the stock part one rezised (I cant use Blender and Unity to create a skin, it's mutch more difficult to me, I'm not an artist ) with the same isp, but its power is 480 kn. I inceased its weight too : 18 tons.

There I am : I got a brand new nuclear engine, a little more efficient than 8 stock parts ones stacked (only because if you want to put 8 nuclear engines on a tank, you have to put lots of stuff that weigh), that no one have cuz' I'm the Creator of this thing.

This engine helps me to have decent acceleration during the long interplanetary burns, and reduces my parts count...

Is that cheating ?

[Atanar]

Also I refuse to play with modded parts that should be in the game. It's the devellopers job! Don't tell me to use something someone created for free when it fills the gap for something I already payed for!

I want to hear "the devellopers should add x" instead of "you should use mod x" when someone has a problem!!!

If the developers had enough time to do everything that the users could possibly want as soon as they wanted it, you MIGHT have a point. We don't live in that universe.

Spot the diffrence in the bold marked parts. Notice it?

having the modding community do it first gives the devs a look at what kinds of things worked and what didn't, reducing their development time

Good argument, but you are greatly overestimating the % of work saved. Brainstorming is the least time consuming process in developing.

Ill fitting meme

That's a bad argument. "purists" isn't exactly an explaination.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Atanar

[EndOfTheEarth]

I've always done 100% vanilla; more tense that way.

[PDCWolf]

I've always gone under the "100% vanilla or die" flag, but now I use mods that fill the gaps the devs left open (yes, i know it's a game in development, no need to say that) like KSPX for it's micro/rockomax parts and KWRocketry for the fairings.

I also use KER for more exact calculations of deltaV and other stuff like detailed orbit inclination and other information.

Getting back to part only mods, I find the bigger version of tanks really usefull cause you can have twice the capacity (and also the weight obviously) in only one part instead of having to stack 2 or more, which is really helpful with the actual drag model.

[AngelLestat]

Eric S: If the developers had enough time to do everything that the users could possibly want as soon as they wanted it, you MIGHT have a point. We don't live in that universe.

In the case of not-unlimited developer resources, there will always be something that the devs haven't had time for. You're saying that I shouldn't be able to play with moving parts because the devs haven't had time to do their own robotics functions? Even if it's something that the devs plan on doing, having the modding community do it first gives the devs a look at what kinds of things worked and what didn't, reducing their development time. And this is a bad thing in your mind? I have to disagree.

For the first thing that he said about download a craft and not have problem with missing files, is ok.. is fine.

In that case, If I wanna share a craft, I will try to be with 100% common parts.

But his hate about mods only tell me that he is the kind of persons who think that behind any cool game devs are gods.. so nobody can try to do what they do. If they say A, has to be A, is not possible to argue, and if they not do something, it's as it should be.

I called them "religious gamers"

Edited May 5, 2013 by AngelLestat

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

I have 5 KSP folders. I mostly use non-stock and stock. And remote tech. I enjoy both. I think that everyone should not yell and think they are superior and keep this thread civil. Discuss your opinions, and don't yell. That is my opinion.

[Atanar]

But his hate about mods only tell me that he is the kind of persons who think that behind any cool game devs are gods.. so nobody can try to do what they do. If they say A, has to be A, is not possible to argue, and if they not do something, it's as it should be.

I called them "religious gamers"

Let me explain my position further:

First off, I don't hate mods. If you play with mods it's your thing. But I don't want to be told that I should use mods.

Full-time working devellopers generally do a better job than hobby modders. Modders have a tendency of not optimising, neither conflicts with other mods nor performance. They add too much often and mess badly with game balance. My experience with other games (minecraft for example) has shown me that. Stuff from modders is so rarely good that it's hardly worth the efford looking. And I want to play with properly made stuff.

[Eric S]

Spot the diffrence in the bold marked parts. Notice it?

How does that change the fact that developer resources are limited? You're saying that every part that should be in the game should be in the game, about a game still in development. How many things got done first as mods, then later done officially? Even the Squad developers have said that they prefer to focus development on things that the modders can't do well enough, rather than reimplementing what they did well enough just because it should be in the stock game. Sure, eventually they'll have the time to get all the things done that they feel need to be in the stock game, but even that isn't saying the same as that they'll have everything that should be in the stock game.

Good argument, but you are greatly overestimating the % of work saved. Brainstorming is the least time consuming process in developing.

Not just the brainstorming. Sometimes something doesn't work out until you try it, and the devs can see problems that the modders ran into that they might not have been able to predict during brainstorming. This could potentially save one or more iterations of prototyping, looking for issues with the prototype, etc. Good software developers learn from other's efforts and don't subject themselves to NIH syndrome.

[Vanamonde]

Trust me, I get why you went off when you felt like you were being attacked. While your post didn't feel like an attack, there have been posts that felt like a personal attack

Well, okay then.

[Eric S]

But I don't want to be told that I should use mods.

Noone's directly telling you you should use mods. Your choice to use a mod or wait for the developers to implement whatever it is you want is your own decision. They may tell you that some mod gets around a problem, or if you want to do some particular thing, you need a mod.

The point we're arguing is this one:

Having no mods improves synergy with the community.

At which point, you really sound like you're telling us that we're playing the game wrong, we'd all be so much happier if we couldn't play with mods.

How active do you think the forums would be if there were no modding community? I don't know by what amount, but it would certainly be less active. I would have come here, accomplished everything I wanted to do, and then I'd take off, only coming back to check on official updates until an update came out that I was interested in. Instead, I'm here on a daily basis, reading a lot of interesting stuff, mostly because I like following what's going on with a lot of mods, some of which I don't even use, I'm just interested in the concept. Most of the threads I follow are in the modding forums, and many of the threads I follow outside the modding forum are still heavily influenced by mods.

If it weren't for the modding community, Squad probably wouldn't have even hired two of it's new employees because they wouldn't have ever been aware of them. Sure, they could have found employees elsewhere, but this way, they get employees that care about the game before they even get paid to care. And they get to see their work before hiring them, in a way far more relevant than happens in most interviews.

Some of the mods have small communities of their own, from two and three man dev teams plus users to the guys that are doing a model of the ISS in KSP.

I already see stock-only challenges, and reddit even does a weekly one. I don't see these being significantly more popular if we were all forced to play stock. It might even reduce the number of people doing the challenges because they're off playing other games waiting for an update.

So all told, I have to disagree. I don't think we'd benefit from improved synergy nearly enough to make up for the loss that the modding community has brought to this game.

[HGGundamReviews]

The biggest problem with a lot of mods and part packs is the totally about of stuff that most people won't use. To that end I keep a second KSP install which I use to test mods before I put them in my main game. If I install a Parts pack like Nova Punch, KSPX, B9 or what not I will go through them see what I think I'll actually use and when I move things to my main game nitpick just those parts I want. It really helps to keep the VAB and SPH parts menus from choking on just the total amount of stuff.

[Dr. Muttonstache]

97% vanilla here, only use the Chatterer mod, Docking Cam, and Mk3 cockpit internals.

[Templar Knight]

I use mods, I enjoy having a lot of variety in the parts I use to make my rockets.

[RepoRogue]

I play with Crew Manifest, Engineer Redux and Sub Assembly, but that's all. I think I might grab improved maneuver nodes as well. I used to play with a bunch of mods, but they never looked right and they tended to cause lag.

That said, some people have their experiences vastly improved by mods, just not me.

[maackey]

I'm a mod whore. I do try to keep the parts to a minimum, since KSP takes 10 mins to load, but I don't like being limited to not having fairings, realistic aerodynamics, large tanks/docking ports/engines (mostly for lag management), remote control/signal delay, sat. mapping, airships, and tons more.

I don't really get why people say modded parts make the game easier... in most cases they don't, and they may even make the game considerably more challenging. In the case of UI mods making the game "easier": If you actually prefer fuddling around in map view to try and select one of 10 objects in the same orbit instead of using the Haystack mod... There is something wrong with you and I want nothing to do with it.

[Canopus]

Mods are a big part of KSP. Don't forget that Nova, C7, Clara Lyrae and Romfarer were all modders before they got hired by Squad.

[Tristavius]

As stated earlier my rules is no new parts, no automatic control, and every ship launchedmust be 100% vanilla, though i use many UI enhancements such as HayStack, SubAssembly, AOTF etc.

When I really, really stop and ask myself 'what is it about some mods I have a problem with' I guess I come to one conclusion: MechJeb. While I don't LIKE non stock engines etc as I feel that's an area that belongs to developers only, I don't have any great dislike for people using them. But whenever I see someone's picture of 'awesome achievement X' with MechJeb open I just find myself thinking, well, you didn't really achieve that did you. Of course I never usually say that, people should be able to play the game however they want - they paid money, they should enjoy it however they want to without someone telling them they're wrong to.

So to the more vocal anti-mod lot out there, is that what this really comes down to for you? Assuming when people use non stock parts they use only balanced once (otherwise lets face it, it is just outright cheating), is it MechJeb that's really the bone of contention here?

[loppnessmonsta]

That really depends on how someone uses MechJeb. I primarily use it for the Smart ASS/Translatron and to time my launches to rendezvous. None of which is impossible under manual control, it's just a lot more precise when MJ does it. So when I do something, yes, I really did it. MechJeb just made it more efficient.

[Brotoro]

Are there lists of the parts available (with specs) in the various mod packages such as KSPX?

[CoriW]

As stated earlier my rules is no new parts, no automatic control, and every ship launchedmust be 100% vanilla, though i use many UI enhancements such as HayStack, SubAssembly, AOTF etc.

When I really, really stop and ask myself 'what is it about some mods I have a problem with' I guess I come to one conclusion: MechJeb. While I don't LIKE non stock engines etc as I feel that's an area that belongs to developers only, I don't have any great dislike for people using them. But whenever I see someone's picture of 'awesome achievement X' with MechJeb open I just find myself thinking, well, you didn't really achieve that did you. Of course I never usually say that, people should be able to play the game however they want - they paid money, they should enjoy it however they want to without someone telling them they're wrong to.

So to the more vocal anti-mod lot out there, is that what this really comes down to for you? Assuming when people use non stock parts they use only balanced once (otherwise lets face it, it is just outright cheating), is it MechJeb that's really the bone of contention here?

MechJeb in my experience seems to be what a lot of people argue about when it comes to mods vs anti-mods.

But really, and it has been said before but I feel like I really need to stress this very important piece of information, it all comes down to the person using MechJeb. I've seen four different groups of people that use MechJeb, and I will list them below.

1) "DO EVERYTHING!" (So this one of course is what a lot of people (note: not all) who don't use mods simply assume has happened if somebody has MechJeb, which is often not the case.)

2) "Show me how it's done!" (This group of people will usually first get MechJeb to complete tasks for them, while they watch and take mental notes on how MechJeb does it (Sort of like a visual tutorial), then will later turn off MechJeb and try it for themselves.)

3) "I've done it before, and I know I can do it manually, so do it for me from now on." (This is the group of people that prove to themselves they can in fact achieve certain things, and once they know they can, don't see much point in doing it repeatedly so they get MechJeb to do those things for them.)

4) "I just want all the information on my screen, and nothing else." (This group doesn't really want the autopilot part of MechJeb, they just want all the readouts so they don't have to keep switching between screens, holding protractors up to their screen, and doing extensive calculations mid-flight.)

Now usually people move in between these groups, but these do seem to be the primary 4 ways people will use MechJeb.

Me personally, I'm in groups 3 and 4, but primarily 4, I use MechJeb mostly for the informational readouts that you can get yourself, whether it be from the map view, holding a protractor to your screen, or scrambling to do a calculation mid-flight, and in that respect, any achievement is still MY achievement, there was no computer helping me through everything, but instead just a box on my screen to tell me the information that I wanted to know on the fly as I needed it. As for why I say I'm in group 3, this is because I will often use MechJeb to set down a maneuver node for interplanetary burns or launch a vessel into a parking orbit around Kerbin for me, but that is hardly cheating. Both I know I can do myself, but ask MechJeb to do because it's simply a tedious task.

So with that being said, I know that when a lot of people (Primarily from groups 3, 4, possibly even 2) hear somebody say, "Oh they had MechJeb, that's not an Achievement", they usually feel some bit of hurt because they know that they did achieve something for themselves whether it be successfully docking with a ship manually after learning how from watching MechJeb or simply using MechJeb for it's informational readouts while they performed a manual maneuver.

All in all, my point is...

I am not saying that everyone should use MechJeb, but I'm also saying that just because someone uses MechJeb does not mean that they necessarily cheat either. So please, to everybody, the next time you see somebody using MechJeb, please don't just assume that they're not putting in any effort, instead try to see how they used MechJeb if possible, and make your assumption based off of that rather than just blanketing MechJeb users as cheaters or people who put in little to no effort.

Edited May 6, 2013 by CoriW

[Uncle Mort]

Well said! let's leave Mechjeb arguments out of this.

I'd like to promote* another mod I use ~ JARFR Tri-Hexagonal Structural Strut ~ great shapes and a really useful motor part.

* note: no money has changed hands though I'm open to bribery

[Finnerty]

100% Vanilla for now. Some mods may be implemented into the game in future updates. I like to think the Devs view mods as suggestions for what the users would like in the game. So maybe what is now a mod could be part of the game, gonna be patient and wait and see. Besides, future updates may cause current mods to not function correctly, then you have to update the mods to keep up with the updates to the game etc...

[musicpenguin]

I have a Stock save for stock games and historical flight type things. And one with B9, Firespitter ETC

[Caelib]

Aside from using Fairing Factory to enclose my payload, I use all stock parts.

[toric5]

i just use KER for readouts and subassembly loader, which i consider close enough for stock challenges.