[PLUGIN, PARTS, Development] [0.20+][0.21+] tek Industries Science v0.4.1

[tek_604]

Is there any kind of reward or purpose to bring samples back to Kerbin at this time?

Nope, not yet anyway. I'm planning on doing some work with Mission Controller, firstly to give monetary reward (both on completion of the mission, and "selling" the samples to researchers), I've just not gotten around to it.

As for a scientific purpose, also not yet. I'm still wondering what to do with the "data".

So, for now, its for roleplay. Gives the player some reason to land and come back

[7499275]

Nope, not yet anyway. I'm planning on doing some work with Mission Controller, firstly to give monetary reward (both on completion of the mission, and "selling" the samples to researchers), I've just not gotten around to it.

As for a scientific purpose, also not yet. I'm still wondering what to do with the "data".

So, for now, its for roleplay. Gives the player some reason to land and come back

Ah ok, well once Squad implements the tech tree this could be very useful then?

[tek_604]

Ah ok, well once Squad implements the tech tree this could be very useful then?

Depends on your definition of useful. Right now, its useful for roleplay reasons. As for what Squad does, no idea, as I have no idea what they plan. We'll just have to wait and see

[tek_604]

Version 0.3.1 has been released!

This was basically a code review, in order to make things easier for me to develop in the future. However, while performing the review, I caught a bug, and squashed it; turns out that after a sample was analysed (using the small analysis packages), first, the amount of resource would not drop to 0, and the unit would continue drawing power.

If you were already using 0.3.0, you won't need to re-launch any missions in progress, as the parts themselves were not changed.

Edited June 23, 2013 by tek_604
Added a note; compatibility with 0.3.0

[M83]

I was just curious, are there going to be any possible revisions to the quantity of electricity that it uses while collecting a sample? I was using 4 of the regular sized shielded solar panels and I had to recharge my craft about 4 times just to get a rock sample. I'm all for this mod, as it's very, very cool and makes landing a lot more versatile, but I'd hate to have to lug along a huge amount of generators just for one sample.

[Scotius]

I'm sticking sample collectors on my kethane miners. They already have significant power reserve. But yeah, dedicated science probes do require a lot of power sources to run sampler continuously (though maybe less than i use now - but i do have a tendency to overbuild things). It's better with mods. Hexcan mod for example have 3 modified RTG modules providing more juice than stock ones.

[M83]

I'm sticking sample collectors on my kethane miners. They already have significant power reserve. But yeah, dedicated science probes do require a lot of power sources to run sampler continuously (though maybe less than i use now - but i do have a tendency to overbuild things). It's better with mods. Hexcan mod for example have 3 modified RTG modules providing more juice than stock ones.

Thing was is that I was operating the crewed science pod. I'd look into the mod but my computer isn't really built for KSP, so I try and stray away from too many mods. Plus I try and build as light as I can to maximize delta-v. Wasn't a huge issue (just turn the sampler off, let it charge, have another go) but it was a small thing that bothered me. Certainly not a make-it-or-break-it issue with this mod.

[tek_604]

As you can probably guess, the mod is still being balanced. Basically, I used similar numbers to Kethane, which, looking at it, is probably overpowered. I'll look at the numbers for the next realease, but, should you wish to change them, look at the part.cfg files for the parts that are bothering you, and change the PowerConsumption value.

[Scotius]

Thing was is that I was operating the crewed science pod. I'd look into the mod but my computer isn't really built for KSP, so I try and stray away from too many mods. Plus I try and build as light as I can to maximize delta-v. Wasn't a huge issue (just turn the sampler off, let it charge, have another go) but it was a small thing that bothered me. Certainly not a make-it-or-break-it issue with this mod.

There is nothing stopping you from using science capsule as a command pod on kethane miner. Or any other ship. Only difference is one crewmember less. And power consumption, of course

[tek_604]

Just came up with this idea

[Kerbal01]

I have a suggestion, Roche Rock a special resource that works with the rendezvous with Roche scenario.

[King Jareth]

Just a quick post to say hi, I'm the new guy on the team working on some models.

A post like this wouldn't be complete without a preview so here's a short animation or what I'm doing right now

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3itmwVtp9YqcWk3bmJzQTNyeFE/edit?usp=sharing

and one of those fancy Sketchfab things

The texturing works going on right now then I'll work on more sample collecting stuff.

Thoughts, comments etc. welcome (I know some of the normals are a bit funky).

[Scotius]

Very cool animation Will it require Damned Robotics installed? As for spare parts and resetting the ovens - i like the idea, but would prefer to do it two ways: automated, using limited amount of spare parts onboard the probe. Or manual, with Kerbal using less parts (or less time). Another idea, KAS related - for storing winch appliances kospy made a rack, to which couple of other parts can be attached. Then EVAing Kerbal can pick those parts and plug them into connector adding grapple or electromagnet. Something similiar could be useful for EVA sampling: a rack or three with gas, liquid and rock sampling backpacks. *too much?*

[King Jareth]

No its just an animation and works from a gui button.

I love KAS and adding grapple/attach to parts for eva, the idea of a sample container that could be taken back to orbit for less deltaV and transferred via eva had crossed my mind (but I thought I'd give Tek a break from my KAS fanboyism).

KASPAR modules would make me giddy.

[Scotius]

Tee hee, a fellow fanboy Sadly, KASPAR is not done yet. But HexCans are working - smallest seem about right size for Kerbal to pick off the rack and carry to another ship.It could be useful if someone would want to recreate Soviet "Luna" missions, though personally i would just land science capsule. Less headache, and designing probe capable of returning from somewhere other than Mun/Minmus with samples could be problematic. I think it would have to be so big, you could've just send manned mission.

[Ikkaku]

Now I think of it, what would be fun, would be a vacuum cleaner type device for liquid sampling

Reminds me of Spaceballs (the movie) and how they removed the atmosphere from a planet. Giant Molly-Maid mech with a vacuum cleaner.

[tek_604]

The spare parts idea just came to me on the drive home, and I was thinking along the lines of an automated system. As soon as the parts delivery docks, the lab will detect it, and repair its ovens. I wasn't planning on having a spare parts resource, it would all be automated. At least for the first version. We'll see what happens in later versions.

The lab will work in roughly the same way. When the sample docks with the lab, it will detect the resources available, and make the analyse buttons available. Then an oven would be used for each 100 units analysed. The sampler could then be sent back down to gather some more.

And I guess I really should look at this magical KAS system! If anyone wants to perform some testing, and let me know how it progresses... In fact, if anyone wants to join the team as a KAS expert, they would be warmly welcomed

[John Nowak]

Thanks for your work on this mod. I've started attaching them to some automated landers and I hope to be able to send you some feedback on how it works soon.

As you've solicited suggestions, I'd like to talk a little bit about why I think samples and sample returns make a good addition to KSP.

KSP is a game about going places, and it does a good job of that. It's a bit weak on doing things when you get there. Taking samples and measurements should be a major component of the game.

From how I've heard this mod described, it seems to lay the groundwork well. It seems that the basics of going somewhere and taking samples from a planet are covered.

I do think, though, that it would benefit from an EVA component. Astronauts take samples, and kerbonauts should too.

The first step in this is pretty straightforward, I think -- allow a kerbal to take a sample and then stow it in the sample return component.

I think you've already discussed integrating with the mission manager to provide a system for applying rewards. I'd suggest that the Mission manager might also be used to set up differing mission goals: "Return 100 units of samples from the big crater on the Mun" or something similar. And of course this could also be extended to other science-based goals. Add a telescope component, then missions where the player needs to set up a space telescope, and then set up an interferometer.

A far more daunting goal would be some sort of "scoring" system -- Science Points. Realistically, Science Points should be rewarded based on the features being sampled: you'd want to check those river beds on Duna for fossils. That's probably too hard to program, but perhaps a good approximation might be rewarding the player with more Science Points if the samples come from widely dispersed areas. Suddenly, there's a reason to drive or walk hundreds of meters to grab a sample instead of sitting on a lander.

[tek_604]

Thanks for your work on this mod. I've started attaching them to some automated landers and I hope to be able to send you some feedback on how it works soon.

As you've solicited suggestions, I'd like to talk a little bit about why I think samples and sample returns make a good addition to KSP.

First, thanks for the feedback. It is always welcome

I do think, though, that it would benefit from an EVA component. Astronauts take samples, and kerbonauts should too.

The first step in this is pretty straightforward, I think -- allow a kerbal to take a sample and then stow it in the sample return component.

I would love this also. Its a natural progression. It has been mentioned that KAS could be used, but, I've not personally looked at it, and I've asked for someone to get involved on this side. If we can get something working, then into the mod it goes

I think you've already discussed integrating with the mission manager to provide a system for applying rewards. I'd suggest that the Mission manager might also be used to set up differing mission goals: "Return 100 units of samples from the big crater on the Mun" or something similar. And of course this could also be extended to other science-based goals. Add a telescope component, then missions where the player needs to set up a space telescope, and then set up an interferometer.

Sure, this is the plan, with regards Mission Controller. Not sure about a telescope, as I believe this exists in another mod, and I don't really want to step on his toes. My mod is also more focussed towards samples/geology, rather than "remote sensing". That being said, I'd love to have a camera mod, or a scanner; something along the lines of MapSat or Kethane (which I understand can now detect anything, if modded to do so), but, these are beyond what I can do at this point. I do have Kethane in the back of my mind, just not sure how it could be integrated at this point.

That being said, if a modeller was to turn around and say "hey, have a telescope/camera part I just made", I sure as hell would think about integrating it

A far more daunting goal would be some sort of "scoring" system -- Science Points. Realistically, Science Points should be rewarded based on the features being sampled: you'd want to check those river beds on Duna for fossils. That's probably too hard to program, but perhaps a good approximation might be rewarding the player with more Science Points if the samples come from widely dispersed areas. Suddenly, there's a reason to drive or walk hundreds of meters to grab a sample instead of sitting on a lander.

This is not a bad idea. I was originally planning a % system, because mining was to be a part. But, with Kethane being improved, I decided it was pointless trying to compete on this front, and frankly, I did not have a good idea what to do next. This scoring system is a great idea! I shall enter it on the github tracker. I totally agree with scoring points based on grabbing samples from dispersed areas, as it fits perfectly with using unmanned rovers (and potentially EVA) sample collection.

Idea added to github tracker: Science Points tracking: feel free to add comments.

Edited June 25, 2013 by tek_604
Added github link

[Moon Goddess]

So for KAS,

You could do something like a sample bay, I'm seeing a concave box with an open front.

This would include

MODULE
{
	name = KASModulePartBay
	bayType = sampleBay				// Restrict grabbed part with the same bayType name. if not set, all grabbable parts will be compatible.
	attachNode = top				// Name of the attach node
	sndStorePath = KAS/Sounds/hookBayStore		// Path of the store sound
}

Then we'd have a sample box. Slightly smaller than the sample bay, basic shape, probably different textures for solid liquid and gas.

I may have to play around with the code, can't test right now, but I think for it to only fit in the sample bay and not attach anywhere else, we don't need the attach code just the grab code.

MODULE
{
	name = KASModuleGrab			//This module will add the possibility to grab the part from Eva.
	grabKey = g					// Key used for grabbing a part
	maxDistance = 2				// Max distance for grabbing a part
	breakForce = 3				// The force that needs to be applied on the grab joint to break. (Not used, as eva don't react correctly to a physic joint) 
	evaPartPos = (0.0, 0.1, -0.3)		// Position of the grabbed part on eva  -- Will need to be adjusted to final model.
	evaPartRot = (280.0, 0.0, 0.0)	        // Rotation of the grabbed part on eva - Will need to be adjusted to final model
	addPartMass = true			// Add or not the grabbed part mass to eva
	bayType = sampleBay			// If set, it allow storing the part in a part bay with the same type name.
	bayNode = top				// Name of attach node used to align the part in a part bay.
	bayRot = (0.0, 0.0, 0.0)		// Rotation of the part stored in a part bay
	grabSndPath = KAS/Sounds/grab		// Grab sound
}

I can play with this tonight and get you the exact code you'd need if you like.

I think there is another plugin that could be used to make a kerbal pick up a sample then deposit it in the sample box. but I don't think they'd be able to while they were carrying the box.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Moon Goddess

[King Jareth]

I've noodled around with KAS bays a bit using the Tri-Hex strut half sized bay and the fuel tank that goes in it to make EVA'able resupply in orbits* infact I'm doing something similar right now with oxygen & CO2 tanks to use with Ioncross (personal project, nothing to do with Tek Sample Collection).

*-I'd really like to code something so that it was only possible in a low-G environment, preferabley taking the current G value and multiplying it by the parts mass and compairing it to a completely plucked out of thin air value a kerbal can lift. But I cant code for turd.

[tek_604]

I can play with this tonight and get you the exact code you'd need if you like.

I think there is another plugin that could be used to make a kerbal pick up a sample then deposit it in the sample box. but I don't think they'd be able to while they were carrying the box.

Of course I'd like. Have a look, and see what you can come up with. I'd be happy to integrate it, if we can get it working

[Moon Goddess]

I've noodled around with KAS bays a bit using the Tri-Hex strut half sized bay and the fuel tank that goes in it to make EVA'able resupply in orbits* infact I'm doing something similar right now with oxygen & CO2 tanks to use with Ioncross (personal project, nothing to do with Tek Sample Collection).

*-I'd really like to code something so that it was only possible in a low-G environment, preferabley taking the current G value and multiplying it by the parts mass and compairing it to a completely plucked out of thin air value a kerbal can lift. But I cant code for turd.

I also made O2, and CO2 tanks for those bays, Water and Kethane as well, just never thought of EVA swappable since they were so big.

KAS already has the option of having the grabbed part add it's mass to the Kerbal grabbing it, surely there is a limit to how much weight a Kerbal can carry.

[King Jareth]

At the minute with KAS not that I know of i.e. when testing the fuel bay a kerbal could walk about with it full on the launch pad. I believe the added mass is to make EVA grabbing stuff more realistic when you use RCS in space.

Or kerbals are all mega buff.

[Scotius]

Why not simply put a flat weight restriction? Only part weighting 0.1 of whatever weight unit Kerbals use, or less can be picked up and carried. So, sample container - yes. Entire bay - heck, no.