Would you cheat death?

[Robotengineer]

Yes I would. I would like to see the Sun swell up and swallow the Earth, see Andromeda collide with the Milky Way, etc.

[kStrout]

Really? every several years your body will eventually completely replace all the atoms in your body with new ones[citation needed]. Even if your brain cells stay the same, just swapping out individual molecules every now and then, most of the cells in your body die only to be replaced by new ones all the time. Does this mean you are a different person, a copy of who you were five years ago, and that he(you five years ago) is dead? No, that's ridiculous, you are the same person, with all your hardware gradually replaced as it aged, and when you upload yourself, you simply update all your hardware at once, you are still the same person.

sorry, this is in response to Baggers.

[Fisk02]

Yeah if it was an apple device...

[Bill Phil]

Nah... Well... Maybe. I might upload myself to a super duper mega computer that can actually hold my mind... And then probably just simulate my life in it. But if that's not an option, then no.

And who said "death" was our ultimate enemy. Everything dies. It's kind of a requirement of life.

Altgough gh when I do die, I'd like to be buried in such a way as to allow other life forms to use my body's resources..

[dudefinal]

You guys would probably like this website http://www.futuretimeline.net/

EDIT: I mean what would you do once or technological knowledge transcends biological comprehension?

Edited September 13, 2015 by dudefinal

[baggers]

Really? every several years your body will eventually completely replace all the atoms in your body with new ones[citation needed]. Even if your brain cells stay the same, just swapping out individual molecules every now and then, most of the cells in your body die only to be replaced by new ones all the time. Does this mean you are a different person, a copy of who you were five years ago, and that he(you five years ago) is dead? No, that's ridiculous, you are the same person, with all your hardware gradually replaced as it aged, and when you upload yourself, you simply update all your hardware at once, you are still the same person.

sorry, this is in response to Baggers.

What is "alive" in yourself at the moment? A bunch of atoms that have the illusion to be "a person" because of complex neural processing data.

But these process is related to "you at the moment": what's "alive" is your body, and the atoms of your body at that moment.

If you transfer your data to a computer and trash your "old" body, you're death as an human, it's an evidence. And the computer is alive.

But "You" are not the Data: "You" are the human body that manipulate data, it's your mistake. And "You" are not "one", but the sum of all the atoms of your body at that moment, having the illusion to be "one".

The Data you keep and manipulate along your life is a symbiotic entity of your body ^^ (as "Culture" is a symbiotic entity of "homo sapiens")

You cannot transfert consciousness, only data from a process to another.

When the process of your human body ceasses to fonction, you lost consciousness, and you're dead.

[Skyler4856]

IF i could retain my youth, id certainly like to live for a couple thousand years. During that time, Id like to learn as much as I can, developing both my mind, and my body.

[TheSaint]

What is "alive" in yourself at the moment? A bunch of atoms that have the illusion to be "a person" because of complex neural processing data.

But these process is related to "you at the moment": what's "alive" is your body, and the atoms of your body at that moment.

If you transfer your data to a computer and trash your "old" body, you're death as an human, it's an evidence. And the computer is alive.

But "You" are not the Data: "You" are the human body that manipulate data, it's your mistake. And "You" are not "one", but the sum of all the atoms of your body at that moment, having the illusion to be "one".

The Data you keep and manipulate along your life is a symbiotic entity of your body ^^ (as "Culture" is a symbiotic entity of "homo sapiens")

You cannot transfert consciousness, only data from a process to another.

When the process of your human body ceasses to fonction, you lost consciousness, and you're dead.

You make a lot of assumptions about the process and from those assumptions assume that the process is impossible. What if there is no transfer involved? What if you simply invent a process that renders the human brain immortal? (Once you've reached that level of technology, the brain is probably all we're concerned about preserving. Everything else can be improved upon at that point.)

Personally, yes, I would take the opportunity. It's just another means of life extension, like CPR, or chemotherapy. And I'm sure that if the burden of immortality ever becomes too great there will be an out provided. Not many options if you go the other route.

[Rath]

Being one of the first and kinda like Brian from The androids Dream by John Scalzi would be awesome.

[baggers]

You make a lot of assumptions about the process and from those assumptions assume that the process is impossible. What if there is no transfer involved? What if you simply invent a process that renders the human brain immortal? (Once you've reached that level of technology, the brain is probably all we're concerned about preserving. Everything else can be improved upon at that point.)

Personally, yes, I would take the opportunity. It's just another means of life extension, like CPR, or chemotherapy. And I'm sure that if the burden of immortality ever becomes too great there will be an out provided. Not many options if you go the other route.

It's another story. I was talking about the limitations of " by storing our consciousness on computers " of the first post.

Assuming that consciousness is "born" by the neural complex of brain, having a "ageless brain" (and ageless body, why not?) is probably as close of "immortal" you can have.

But i'm not sure you can keep alive a human brain that long without starting to have some "bugs" or dementia to appear passing a certain point, even in a "ageless" one. After all, an ageless human will certainly see many traumatic things in his life, and probably could not recover complety passed a certain amount. (and need a partial or full reset ^^).

[Beowolf]

Hell, yes! I'd make an appointment for tomorrow, if one were available. I don't even need the robot body. Tell me you can put my consciousness in a computer without bringing along my bad heart, disabled joints, and constant pain, and I'm in! The only peripherals I really need are a good net connection, and a pair of soft, warm arms I can hug my wife with. I'd probably still go without the arms, but those hugs have gotten pretty important to us both now that I'm not good for much else.

If I'm stuck with a virtual-only body, fooling around in games like Second Life and Elder Scrolls Online, well, what do you think I do with my time now? Just let me feel the virtual wind in my hair when I virtual-run, and hand me a virtual Cherokee 140 to replace the real one I flew in better days.

[Mazon Del]

Sorry Baggers, but there are plenty of ways around this "loophole" you bring up. A perfect atomic scan of my brain now being run in the computer is now a parallel process to the biological one, the same in every way. Sure, at some point the biological one ceases to function, but that's fine. That's not death of a being, that's death of a part, same as losing some skin cells. What represents ME is still continuing forth and doing what it has always done. If I wanted to, I could even just have the biological portion go unconscious, take the scan, then make the biological portion cease functioning without ever waking. As far as I'd be concerned, continuity was guaranteed as much as it is when you go to sleep and wake up in the morning as the same person.

Furthermore, if you take the route of "But you are still 'killing' the other you!" I refute that by simply declaring that any singular "me" at this immortality point is not representative of ME. As an AI, I can make copies of my consciousness, toss them into a sundiver probe and watch it burn up, while of course BEING burned up technically, and be happy because what represents ME is continuing existence after all is said and done. Right now, there is but one of ME and I do not have an ability to make more, so this one "me" is critical to keep functioning. The instant I can make copies, the significance of this "me" drops dramatically. Oh it would still have some importance given that it was the "first" me. Maybe I decide to put it on ice to keep around as a souvenir? It doesn't really matter after that point.

And sure, you can always go the route that one day after the heat death hits, I'll still shut down in the end. But so what? Even assuming we don't find a way to pop into other universes and so on, gaining trillions of years of life are plenty worth it! Especially if one were to decide to experience those trillions at such a high rate of mental thinking that in those trillions, I've experienced several orders of magnitude more.

[baggers]

Sorry Baggers, but there are plenty of ways around this "loophole" you bring up. A perfect atomic scan of my brain now being run in the computer is now a parallel process to the biological one, the same in every way. Sure, at some point the biological one ceases to function, but that's fine. That's not death of a being, that's death of a part, same as losing some skin cells. What represents ME is still continuing forth and doing what it has always done. If I wanted to, I could even just have the biological portion go unconscious, take the scan, then make the biological portion cease functioning without ever waking. As far as I'd be concerned, continuity was guaranteed as much as it is when you go to sleep and wake up in the morning as the same person.

Furthermore, if you take the route of "But you are still 'killing' the other you!" I refute that by simply declaring that any singular "me" at this immortality point is not representative of ME. As an AI, I can make copies of my consciousness, toss them into a sundiver probe and watch it burn up, while of course BEING burned up technically, and be happy because what represents ME is continuing existence after all is said and done. Right now, there is but one of ME and I do not have an ability to make more, so this one "me" is critical to keep functioning. The instant I can make copies, the significance of this "me" drops dramatically. Oh it would still have some importance given that it was the "first" me. Maybe I decide to put it on ice to keep around as a souvenir? It doesn't really matter after that point.

And sure, you can always go the route that one day after the heat death hits, I'll still shut down in the end. But so what? Even assuming we don't find a way to pop into other universes and so on, gaining trillions of years of life are plenty worth it! Especially if one were to decide to experience those trillions at such a high rate of mental thinking that in those trillions, I've experienced several orders of magnitude more.

We are more on a philosophical point of view.

What's "you"?

Usually, we recognize that consciousness, and therefore "you" as a thinking entity is closely related to your physical corpse.

So, let's assume you have that consciousness computer. You can store data from you, data from your neightbour, or even a random "computer personality": when you switch from a bunch of data to another, who is the computer? You, your neigthbour, the random artificial personality or changes-it every time?

For me, the answer is simple: at every time, the computer have been... itself alive, alone. Just his data and "personality" change.

But if you consider that "a person" is when a special bunch of data is processed by that computer, OK. Why not.

Edited September 16, 2015 by baggers

[Just Jim]

I prefer my brain in a canister... lol...

Seriously, I would accept on one condition: I have control of my "off switch", so if I decide someday down the road I decide I've had enough, I can power myself down.

[cicatrix]

Questions about whether it would be you or a copy of you can be resolved in this thought experiment:

When the day X comes and doctors say 'It's either now or never' you finally attach some cable or whatever to your head and start the transfer... it's 70%, 80%, 90%... 100%. Now, there are two copies of your consciousness - one 'digital' and one in your old dying body. Doctors say 'fine', now we must dispose of your body. You physical say 'Wait, what?' but two strong hands grab you and you feel as a needle enters your shoulder, you feel dizzy, you understand that you're dying and will never wake up.

You digital observes the whole process via a camera shrugs and goes on your way with your new digital life.

OK, that's death, isn't it? At least for one of your two copies.

Now another one:

Finally a technology exists that allow implanting some microchips into your brain. Now you can think faster, remember more stuff, compute, etc. The surgery goes well and now you have a chip in your head. Some time later you want an upgrade and implant another chip, replacing yet another portion of your brain with electronics. Times goes on, you continue to add components and at some point of time you suddenly understand that there's no organic parts left in your scull. You start replacing your internal organs, limbs, add more stuff and voilla - now you're a robot.

Still, the consciousness would be yours, wouldn't it?

Gives you something to think of

[baggers]

Finally a technology exists that allow implanting some microchips into your brain. Now you can think faster, remember more stuff, compute, etc. The surgery goes well and now you have a chip in your head. Some time later you want an upgrade and implant another chip, replacing yet another portion of your brain with electronics. Times goes on, you continue to add components and at some point of time you suddenly understand that there's no organic parts left in your scull. You start replacing your internal organs, limbs, add more stuff and voilla - now you're a robot.

Lets try a simpler scenario: a man replace his brain in 2 stages: first the left hemisphere, then the right one. Lets assume it can live a short amount of time with half-brain, no matter wich one.

Here, you immediatly see a problem: have we one human, or 2? If each "half-brain" is alive for a short time?

The answer is simple: we have 2 half-brains, that have the illusion to be "one human" because of complexe consciousness process that produce that illusion to be "one".

It's the same process for every part of "your corpse": you were a bunch of many atoms. But have the illusion to "being one" because it's the picture created by your brain process. (Side note: theses process don't work alway very well: schyzophrenia, Alien Hand Syndrome are exemples of that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_hand_syndrome )

So, if you replace half your brain by a microchip, assuming it replicate the complex consciousness process, you will still have the illusion to "be one" and the same, naturally! It don't really matter for the process if a bunch of atoms were replaced by another.

But half your brain is dead, theses atoms have cessed to be "alive" and what is alive now is a chip. And next stage is all your brain dead and 2 chips alives, that think they were an human before.

It's an illusion, but if it's OK, why not?

[WinkAllKerb'']

Death won't cheat you if you cheat life ; ) dunno wich one is longer after all : )

Edited September 17, 2015 by WinkAllKerb''
ploof ploof and no proofs won't be fun othewise ,'')

[WestAir]

Baggers,

You've correctly stated that consciousness is a lie to the system by the system.

Unfortunately for anyone willing to digitize themselves, once the illusion is brought to an end, you still die when your biological self is killed. Consciousness will quantize down to the digital copy, but your copy will cut to black because the cells that you are that is being lied to about its total consciousness will die, and the biological you won't be a part of that new consciousness.

The good news about this transfer is that because you'd be dead, you'd never know you didn't make it to the digital world. Neither will the new you or an outside observer. Congratulations on your successful unsuccessful journey. (The entire topic is almost directly akin to the teleporter debate.)

[cicatrix]

but your copy will cut to black because the cells that you are that is being lied to about its total consciousness will die, and the biological you won't be a part of that new consciousness.

What cells have to do with consciousness? You don't have a single cell you consisted of 10 years ago, it may very well be that you don't even have a single atom left from your previous self.

[baggers]

What cells have to do with consciousness?

Please note that in the previous statements, I, and the majority here, assumed consciousness is a "emergent" faculty of a complex neural web, no matter the nature of the web.

At the state of science we are today, we absolutely don't know, and maybe will never know if an "artificial" neuronal complex made of silicium is capable of consciousness, or is only what we call a "Philosophical zombie". (It's called the "hard problem" of consciousness)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie

So, I previously assumed, as the majority of forumers, that a "artificial neuronal web" will "implies" consciousness, just like a biological human one. But we will probably never be sure about that. (how to test it? At a side note, budhhist have a interresing picture for that: "can the blade cut herself?" ^^)

But neuronals sciences have learned many thing about how "process of conscience" work. It's firmly stated that they may be handled by any neural cell, and that many "unconscious process" co-inhabit with the "conscious" ones.

I will not enter in the details (i'm not a specialist in that thing) but "consciousness" implies high-levels process that burn more energy than "unconscious ones" and that can "take control" at will on "small priority" process (like, earing, breathing...) that can too "claim priority" and more energy for switching to "conscious stage" depending of the situation.

Note that some low priority "emergency process" (called for example "panic" ^^) can "take control" over even conscious process in certain cases (especialy when theses process "see" - stress levels, that sort of things - that the "conscious process" seem unable to handle a emergency situation)

So consciousness is closely related to all theses process, and how they work. You can totaly lose consciousness, and we are able to see that because no area of the brain is actually consuming energy, and track the active consciousness process by their energy consuption.

As stated before, the consciousness "use" for it's work a picture of "yourself" as an human, made by the brain (other process): if any of theses process isn't working well, it can result in catastrophic failures as the "consciousness" use that picture (illusion of "being one") for handle all actions along your life. Shyzophrenia ou Alien Hand Syndromes are examples of "consciousness broken". Total loss of consciousness (no energy consumption in the brain: flat encephalogram) and miraculary recovering as the cells were able to reboot a conscious process are possible after accidents.

All of that for saying that yes, it's a very close relation between "consciousness" and the actual cell working to made it ^^.

You don't have a single cell you consisted of 10 years ago, it may very well be that you don't even have a single atom left from your previous self.

Have you a link? I have a doubt about that asumption.

Even if true, a progressive replacement isn't the same as a brutal one like dispose of your previous entire corpse!

In fact it can be true and don't matter: What's "you" at the moment is the actual bunch of atoms assembled and controled by a conscious process working by brain cells ^^

[cicatrix]

Have you a link? I have a doubt about that asumption.

Cells die and being born your whole organism renews periodically. But What makes you you? Your body? Your brain? Your memories?

[baggers]

Cells die and being born your whole organism renews periodically. But What makes you you? Your body? Your brain? Your memories?

Great link.

At this stage, I must say i'm into the "you is a lie" You were not "you", it's just an (usefull) illusion made by a neural brain process for Darwin-like purposes

But i'm still curious about the "real answer at this question" because I feel it can be something else not discovered at the moment and even not "physical". After all, I'm pretty sure my brain will work and handle process as well if nobody is into it. And pretty convinced that "I" am into it!

But if it's not a "physical" thing, it has no effect on our universe, and it's why we are unable to identifies a "philosophical zombie" from a consciousness one.

Or maybe I'm fooled about all of these. Too much tinking process at the moment.

- - - Updated - - -

But i'm OK with the conclusion of that article:

The early Buddhist view is that much or most of the misery of human life resulted from the false view of self.†I think that’s probably very true, and that’s the point of thinking about this topic.

Research about how the brain and brain cells handles conscious and unconscious process is the way to go.

Edited September 18, 2015 by baggers

[cicatrix]

But i'm still curious about the "real answer at this question" because I feel it can be something else not discovered at the moment and even not "physical".

Clerics call this thing 'soul', FYI

Also there's a problem - if I manage to replicate your body atom by atom, free ion by free ion, restore electric charges and particle energies... would this 'copy' be alive or dead at the end of the process? Would it retain all your memories and experience? Or will it be granted a new 'fresh' soul with in a state of a newborn child?

Edited September 18, 2015 by cicatrix

[baggers]

Clerics call this thing 'soul', FYI

Also there's a problem - if I manage to replicate your body atom by atom, free ion by free ion, restore electric charges and particle energies... would this 'copy' be alive or dead at the end of the process? Would it retain all your memories and experience? Or will it be granted a new 'fresh' soul with in a state of a newborn child?

Even worse: Even if it react perfectly as you will have if you say "hello" or slap them, how would you know it as "someone" inside? And not just a soulless biological mechanism?

That's the "philosophical zombie" thing.

As memory, personality, reactions and all cognitive process are handle by the cells, and there no need for a "soul" to an human for function, who is in that zombie?

Edited September 18, 2015 by baggers

[_Augustus_]

I would.