Would you cheat death?

[DisarmingBaton5]

I might, but only for a while. I want to know (at some point) what death is like.

[Flymetothemun]

He wouldn't even speak the language.

Language evolves pritty damn fast. If you were to get in a time machine and go, say 1000 years in the future. Even if the language is still called english, you wouldn't understand a word of it.

Just think of how mad you already are with the your you're, and all the slang ect, that right there IS language evolving, while the old guys just try to stick to the rules.

Yeah, just look at Shakespeare compared to now. I predict that by the year 3000 English will be composed of dumbed-down texting shorthand.

[thunderstar]

Yeah, just look at Shakespeare compared to now. I predict that by the year 3000 English will be composed of dumbed-down texting shorthand.

yeah probably, but remeber that today almost everyone knows to read and write, in the time of Shakespeare it was a privilege

[Kerbface]

The idea makes me uncomfortable, but I don't feel like going into detail about that. Anyway, as for death, I'm really a bit terrified of it, but I still think I'd prefer it to living forever as a computer, and hope I can eventually come to terms with it. This poem gives an interesting perspective on eternal sleep.

Here, where the world is quiet ;

Here, where all trouble seems

Dead winds’ and spent waves’ riot

In doubtful dreams of dreams ;

I watch the green field growing

For reaping folk and sowing,

For harvest-time and mowing,

A sleepy world of streams.

I am tired of tears and laughter,

And men that laugh and weep ;

Of what may come hereafter

For men that sow to reap :

I am weary of days and hours,

Blown buds of barren flowers,

Desires and dreams and powers

And everything but sleep.

Here life has death for neighbour,

And far from eye or ear

Wan waves and wet winds labour,

Weak ships and spirits steer ;

They drive adrift, and whither

They wot not who make thither ;

But no such winds blow hither,

And no such things grow here.

No growth of moor or coppice,

No heather-flower or vine,

But bloomless buds of poppies,

Green grapes of Proserpine,

Pale beds of blowing rushes

Where no leaf blooms or blushes

Save this whereout she crushes

For dead men deadly wine.

Pale, without name or number,

In fruitless fields of corn,

They bow themselves and slumber

All night till light is born ;

And like a soul belated,

In hell and heaven unmated,

By cloud and mist abated

Comes out of darkness morn.

Though one were strong as seven,

He too with death shall dwell,

Nor wake with wings in heaven,

Nor weep for pains in hell ;

Though one were fair as roses,

His beauty clouds and closes ;

And well though love reposes,

In the end it is not well.

Pale, beyond porch and portal,

Crowned with calm leaves, she stands

Who gathers all things mortal

With cold immortal hands ;

Her languid lips are sweeter

Than love’s who fears to greet her

To men that mix and meet her

From many times and lands.

She waits for each and other,

She waits for all men born ;

Forgets the earth her mother,

The life of fruits and corn ;

And spring and seed and swallow

Take wing for her and follow

Where summer song rings hollow

And flowers are put to scorn.

There go the loves that wither,

The old loves with wearier wings ;

And all dead years draw thither,

And all disastrous things ;

Dead dreams of days forsaken,

Blind buds that snows have shaken,

Wild leaves that winds have taken,

Red strays of ruined springs.

We are not sure of sorrow,

And joy was never sure ;

To-day will die to-morrow ;

Time stoops to no man’s lure ;

And love, grown faint and fretful,

With lips but half regretful

Sighs, and with eyes forgetful

Weeps that no loves endure.

From too much love of living,

From hope and fear set free,

We thank with brief thanksgiving

Whatever gods may be

That no life lives for ever ;

That dead men rise up never ;

That even the weariest river

Winds somewhere safe to sea.

Then star nor sun shall waken,

Nor any change of light :

Nor sound of waters shaken,

Nor any sound or sight :

Nor wintry leaves nor vernal,

Nor days nor things diurnal ;

Only the sleep eternal

In an eternal night.

[Brotoro]

I would use MechJeb on death...BUT THAT'S NOT CHEATING!

[Brabbit1987]

Can I just point out that uploading your brain to the internet will do nothing to make YOU immortal? A copy of you =\= you. You'll die as an immortal clone of you is born. Not quite how I want to cheat death. The only way we will cheat death is by finding a way to stop the break down of telomerase* in DNA. Only then will aging come to an end.

Actually I already know a way around that

[Dortmunder]

I probably would, if it were possible.

Check out the movie Transcendent Man if you're interested in this type of thing

[Paprika]

Actually I already know a way around that

Yeah, it's called cancer...

Although I believe they found a way to restore telomerase length in yeasts last year.

[ecat]

If you become immortal to live to see what Humanity becomes, then Humanity will have become something so totally different from what we are now that you wouldn't recognize us as human any more. Time, space, wealth, compassion, health, suffering, pleasure, sex, reproduction, would no longer have the same meaning when you can live forever.

In other words, mortality is inherent to human nature. Remove mortality, and we are no longer human, but something completely different.

Oh, I know a song about that...

It livens up around 2:50 and in common with much music from that generation it's best to hear the full album.

Anyway, yes. So, so much of society would have to change. So, so much of what it is we consider 'human' would have to change.

One thing I've not seen mentioned is our pitiful understanding of biology, genetics and evolution. There is much in our make-up that we do not understand, yet it may protect against long forgotten circumstance or disease. And going forward, what do we build in to protect against future concerns? What fail safes? Most frightening, what obsolescence would today's corporations insist on including?

OT.

Given the choice?

Hell yes! Assuming mobility - or apparent mobility if a VR interface is involved -, sensation and mental faculties remain.

If you don't like the new you, you can always change your mind.

The day we can achieve this is the day our childhood ends.

(Small print: Early cancellation of your contract with 'Project Eternity' is only possible after payment of a one-off cancellation fee)

Edited July 14, 2013 by ecat

[ramses]

I definitely would, but knowing my luck with computers, i'd probably end up with some really annoying Virus for eternity from some e-mail I accidentally opened!

[Sirrobert]

Can I just point out that uploading your brain to the internet will do nothing to make YOU immortal? A copy of you =\= you. You'll die as an immortal clone of you is born. Not quite how I want to cheat death. The only way we will cheat death is by finding a way to stop the break down of telomerase* in DNA. Only then will aging come to an end.

That's nothing more than a phylisofical question. Something that's in every way an identical copy, including your thaughts, memorys, and everything, is the same person in my opinion.

And telemerase is hardly the only problem with aging. Each cel division builds up small mutations. You'd need to find a way to fix that if you want to live forever (I'm talking about cancer)

[magnemoe]

Can I just point out that uploading your brain to the internet will do nothing to make YOU immortal? A copy of you =\= you. You'll die as an immortal clone of you is born. Not quite how I want to cheat death. The only way we will cheat death is by finding a way to stop the break down of telomerase* in DNA. Only then will aging come to an end.

Its the main issue, say you die and the mind is perfectly transferred into an clone. You would just wake up again so it would feel that it was yourself.

Old issue with the star trek teleporters.

Mine main issue is why they didn't just restored the sent copy if the landing crew died. Or more sinister, how about two guys wanted to same lady, one in beamed down at location, other is restored at ship and told the landing was canceled. Later the two ladies meet

[magnemoe]

If you become immortal to live to see what Humanity becomes, then Humanity will have become something so totally different from what we are now that you wouldn't recognize us as human any more. Time, space, wealth, compassion, health, suffering, pleasure, sex, reproduction, would no longer have the same meaning when you can live forever.

In other words, mortality is inherent to human nature. Remove mortality, and we are no longer human, but something completely different.

Moving you mind into an machine would probably make you non human as you would not be human, you would not think the same way anymore.

However just removing mortality would be an minor effect, far less than many other cultural changes.

[Brabbit1987]

Yeah, it's called cancer...

Although I believe they found a way to restore telomerase length in yeasts last year.

If you see the person I quoted, you would know that isn't what I was talking about.

I was talking about consciousness. If you want to upload yourself to a machine, you would need to do so in a way that you are awake. So basically, you would be copying yourself and turning this machine on while still occupying your human body. That way you are aware of both instances of yourself, and then turn off the human body portion.

This solves the whole possible death / clone problem. If you had the capability to upload yourself to a computer, this wouldn't be very difficult to do.

[Paprika]

If you see the person I quoted, you would know that isn't what I was talking about.

I was talking about consciousness. If you want to upload yourself to a machine, you would need to do so in a way that you are awake. So basically, you would be copying yourself and turning this machine on while still occupying your human body. That way you are aware of both instances of yourself, and then turn off the human body portion.

This solves the whole possible death / clone problem. If you had the capability to upload yourself to a computer, this wouldn't be very difficult to do.

My bad, I get what you mean now. Sorry!

[WestAir]

I don't understand? I always thought consciousness was literally the end result of your specific neural network. That the physical atoms that make your neurons are directly responsible for your self awareness, and simply "copying" its data does nothing to transfer your perception of awareness to the copy, because the physical atoms that make you are still held up inside your cranium. As far as I know, you can't transfer consciousness (you) anywhere without taking the physical atoms that make you with it.

Am I mistaken?

Edited July 14, 2013 by WestAir

[Brabbit1987]

I don't understand? I always thought consciousness was literally the end result of your specific neural network. That the physical atoms that make your neurons are directly responsible for your self awareness, and simply "copying" its data does nothing to transfer your perception of awareness to the copy, because the physical atoms that make you are still held up inside your cranium. As far as I know, you can't transfer consciousness (you) anywhere without taking the physical atoms that make you with it.

Am I mistaken?

Not sure. It's not precisely known 100% how consciousness works. I don't think you would need the specific atoms in your brain though to be able to copy it. Any of that information should be able to be copied even to new atoms if that ends up being the case. If they where to replicate the brain perfectly, it should have that capability to store consciousness.

[ecat]

I don't understand? I always thought consciousness was literally the end result of your specific neural network. That the physical atoms that make your neurons are directly responsible for your self awareness, and simply "copying" its data does nothing to transfer your perception of awareness to the copy, because the physical atoms that make you are still held up inside your cranium. As far as I know, you can't transfer consciousness (you) anywhere without taking the physical atoms that make you with it.

Am I mistaken?

Well I know you are not the person you used to be, and I not who I used to be. The skin you have today is not the same skin you had last week, the old stuff flaked off and has been replaced. Cell death, cell growth. I have no idea how much of the process goes on in the body: skin obviously, heart, liver, lungs, kidneys, eyes, I guess these have all been 'replaced' multiple times. I'm not sure about teeth or bones or the brain. Brain cells certainly die but are they replaced by new cells? Cells maintaining the same connections?

If you, as in you the mind and memories, are the result of ever so many cells of ever so many types and the connections between them - and this is how it has to be for this is all there is - then yes I guess the entire structure could be duplicated. Would this duplication be concious as you? Would it believe it was you? Just placing you and it in different rooms is enough to prove both can follow different paths, you are not and cannot be both and you cannot subsequently die and hope to continue as it. If you were to die then it could continue to believe it was you, likewise if it were to die and you live, you would continue to be you.

It is hard to imagine. Even with an analogy such as two identical hard disks in two identical computers which start to differ only after the first time they are switched on. What makes it so hard is that you are the data on those disks, you are the data looking outwards.

[Brabbit1987]

Well I know you are not the person you used to be, and I not who I used to be. The skin you have today is not the same skin you had last week, the old stuff flaked off and has been replaced. Cell death, cell growth. I have no idea how much of the process goes on in the body: skin obviously, heart, liver, lungs, kidneys, eyes, I guess these have all been 'replaced' multiple times. I'm not sure about teeth or bones or the brain. Brain cells certainly die but are they replaced by new cells? Cells maintaining the same connections?

If you, as in you the mind and memories, are the result of ever so many cells of ever so many types and the connections between them - and this is how it has to be for this is all there is - then yes I guess the entire structure could be duplicated. Would this duplication be concious as you? Would it believe it was you? Just placing you and it in different rooms is enough to prove both can follow different paths, you are not and cannot be both and you cannot subsequently die and hope to continue as it. If you were to die then it could continue to believe it was you, likewise if it were to die and you live, you would continue to be you.

It is hard to imagine. Even with an analogy such as two identical hard disks in two identical computers which start to differ only after the first time they are switched on. What makes it so hard is that you are the data on those disks, you are the data looking outwards.

Yes I agree with pretty much everything you said here, except hard drives can go in raid, and I assume a similar concept can be applied to the human brain when transferring to a machine

[Flixxbeatz]

I wanna see the other side, without permanent demise.

[falofonos]

You're all a bunch of semi evolved simians.

That's kind of an important fact rather than an insult. For your consciousness to survive in a recognizable form "inside a computer" you would require a lot of simulation of stuff that your body and nervous system tunes out of consciousness or to excise those filters from your self.

The nub of the gist is that regardless of how you copy yourself, it's still a copy. To evolutionary biology a perfect clone is "you" but to people and or personality tests it won't be.

A possible method to achieve continuity of consciousness would be to somehow add a bio-compatible expansion to your brain which would act identically to the brain matter itself (as far as the brain is concerned) so that dreams, redistribution of memory and so on would be expanded into the storage of your augment. As time goes on, the augment becomes more representative of your mind and as your physical brain fails due to meatsack weaknesses the augment takes on more of the meat brain tasks. At some point the augment is the only thing "running" your mind, the rest of the content of your skull having dissolved into scar tissue and goop.

There is your immortality...

Even with this process, assuming such technology exists, there is a good argument to say that the consciousness in the augment is still just a copy of the meatbrain and there is no continuity of awareness. Such arguments would be very popular among the descendants of the augmented with regards to wills.

[SpaceOddity]

As to the clone vs. true you dilemma: there is no one "true" you. I'm not the same person I was before writing this post, neither will you be the same person you were five minutes ago after reading it. Changing our place of residence from an organic computer to an non-organic one would be probably just on the scale of meno- or andropause, especially that technology sufficient to accomplish the transfer and simulation of the brain functions should make it trivial to keep the user thinking they live in a real world.

We have to consider the economy as well - maintenance of such huge simulation systems would cost a small fortune - and for most of people inside simulation that means some kind of work, so unless you are able to do a meaningful work without a real body, you will probably have to work as a gold farmer, or an NPC in some RPG game...

[Sirrobert]

I don't understand? I always thought consciousness was literally the end result of your specific neural network. That the physical atoms that make your neurons are directly responsible for your self awareness, and simply "copying" its data does nothing to transfer your perception of awareness to the copy, because the physical atoms that make you are still held up inside your cranium. As far as I know, you can't transfer consciousness (you) anywhere without taking the physical atoms that make you with it.

Am I mistaken?

You are mixing up some terms. The atoms aren't that important. Except ofcourse you need the right ones to make your proteins, and fats, and everything your body is made off. The specific molecules (or atoms if you will) are constandly being replaced, transformed into other molecules, ect. What's important is the exact structure of your brain. The way the neurons and supporting cells are linked. Each and every thing you experience, causes your brain to rewire itself. As far as I understand it, that's a big part of your learning procces.

Than ofcourse there are hormones influencing everything, ect.

If you could copy all those things, be it a computer simulation or some organic replacement, than you would probably have real concience.

Well I know you are not the person you used to be, and I not who I used to be. The skin you have today is not the same skin you had last week, the old stuff flaked off and has been replaced. Cell death, cell growth. I have no idea how much of the process goes on in the body: skin obviously, heart, liver, lungs, kidneys, eyes, I guess these have all been 'replaced' multiple times. I'm not sure about teeth or bones or the brain. Brain cells certainly die but are they replaced by new cells? Cells maintaining the same connections?

Contrary to popular belief, the brain is very capable of replacing damaged nerve cells, and your brain develops new connections constandly (and removes old ones).

Cell turnover (natural death+replacement, like replacing skin) is pritty slow though.

Your bones not cells, so they are not replaced in the same way. They are sortoff replaced often though.

You have very specific macrophages designed to remove bone tissue, followed by specific cells that create new ones. Inside your bones is a network of cells that monitor the structure for any faults, and if they detect any, it's repaird in much the same way a dentist repairs a teeth. Remove everything around the fracture, and fill it up with new bone.

Also, your bones are constandly rebuild to acomdate for new pressures. It's the reason austronauts get weak bones in space. Without gravity, there is no pressure on your bones, and thus they are made weaker to accomodate for the new situation. Anything the body conciders to much is removed fast (that's why you can lose your muscles so fast if you stop working out).

And yes, alternatively if you were to start living on a planet with higher gravity, you'd get stronger bones

[Sbowyer28]

I wouldn't cheat death, No point in it of seeing the Death of your family and loved ones, what after that, everyone is gone, No thank you.

[WestAir]

You are mixing up some terms. The atoms aren't that important. Except ofcourse you need the right ones to make your proteins, and fats, and everything your body is made off. The specific molecules (or atoms if you will) are constandly being replaced, transformed into other molecules, ect. What's important is the exact structure of your brain. The way the neurons and supporting cells are linked. Each and every thing you experience, causes your brain to rewire itself. As far as I understand it, that's a big part of your learning procces.

Than ofcourse there are hormones influencing everything, ect.

If you could copy all those things, be it a computer simulation or some organic replacement, than you would probably have real concience.

My point wasn't that it was impossible to create a perfect copy of a brain that then becomes conscience or sentient, it was that such a copy (inside a computer, for example) would not be your specific consciousness. It would be a new consciousness that you are not in control of. Because of this, your consciousness (in your old body) can still be killed, ruining the concept of "cheating death" via mind upload.