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[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

TaranisElsu

By TaranisElsu
in KSP1 Mod Releases

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diomedea

diomedea

Posted
Posted

IMHO, stick to units per Kerbal per day.

After all, it is just the amount displayed that has to make sense for a purpose, not the raw amount itself.

Raw quantities may be used internally, and it is about those quantities where all different mods should get together. But to players, and Jeb, making hurdles to calculate from raw quantities is an inferior design.

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cyberKerb

cyberKerb

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Is there a way to compromise? Is it possible to use the proposed standardized units, but in your LS display and in the part set up do a calculation to display the values in days so that it preserves the way it's displayed now?

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seanth

seanth

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I completely agree with how useful it would be to have standardization. I pitched the same idea to a few other mod makers. Some have agreed that standards would be really useful. Some never replied.

In regards to this specific mod, I find it amusing that people worry about how difficult it would be to keep track of oxygen when we're talking about a game that is about space flight. Rocket science is easy, but biology is hard, I guess.

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jrandom

jrandom

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In regards to this specific mod, I find it amusing that people worry about how difficult it would be to keep track of oxygen when we're talking about a game that is about space flight. Rocket science is easy, but biology is hard, I guess.

I have a delta-v computer that adds up my rocket's stats -- no reason to drudge through it by hand. Same goes for life support: I want my difficulty to come from the logistical challenge, not the annoyance of constantly having to dig up conversion numbers. It's the Wrong Kind Of Hard.

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regex

regex

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Posted (edited)
I completely agree with how useful it would be to have standardization. I pitched the same idea to a few other mod makers. Some have agreed that standards would be really useful. Some never replied.

Can we get everyone to agree on a standardized pressure for gaseous resources, or a common flow type? I doubt that.

In regards to this specific mod, I find it amusing that people worry about how difficult it would be to keep track of oxygen when we're talking about a game that is about space flight. Rocket science is easy, but biology is hard, I guess.

One of the hallmarks of this mod is that I don't have to pull out my calculator to see how many days my Kerbal has left to live. I don't even need an extra GUI, it's all there for me in the stock resources screen which I usually have open. What about that is worth mocking? If you like seeing that in hours or liters, more power to you; I'm sure someone caters to you.

Edited by regex
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seanth

seanth

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What about that is worth mocking? If you like seeing that in hours or liters, more power to you; I'm sure someone caters to you.

Must just be the biologist in me. For me, having biologically realistic values/rates is more fun in that I then need to engineer to cater the living things. Along those lines, one could alter the O2 tanks so they contain gas in multiples of kerbal/day.

But in the end, it's just a game and there is always ModuleManager

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jrandom

jrandom

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Must just be the biologist in me. For me, having biologically realistic values/rates is more fun in that I then need to engineer to cater the living things. Along those lines, one could alter the O2 tanks so they contain gas in multiples of kerbal/day.

But in the end, it's just a game and there is always ModuleManager

We're just talking about the displayed units. For the MM .cfg I'm making, I'm using the volume of the container combined with the physical density of the resource (compressed o2 at 300kg/m^3, water at 1000kg/m^3) to determine how many days' resources will fit into any given container. I set the resources' 'density' setting to tons-per-day-used and we get biologically-realistic values combined with a unit-per-day consumption rate and display values. Best of both worlds.

Now if I could just find out how many kilograms of food fit into 1 m^3... that's the last stat I can't seem to dig up. I know it varies wildly, so I need a sort of average.

Edited by jrandom
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regex

regex

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There are a few ways around the issue to be sure. Right now TAC LS is the only mod to handle food and water for life support. While water is an easy resource to figure out as far as density, food isn't (what's the flow mode for food?) and that might be a point of contention for future modding.

I'm not saying standardization wouldn't be a good thing, just that getting everyone on the bandwagon is going to be the big hurdle. Especially because we've got ModuleManager.

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jrandom

jrandom

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There are a few ways around the issue to be sure. Right now TAC LS is the only mod to handle food and water for life support. While water is an easy resource to figure out as far as density, food isn't (what's the flow mode for food?) and that might be a point of contention for future modding.

I'm not saying standardization wouldn't be a good thing, just that getting everyone on the bandwagon is going to be the big hurdle. Especially because we've got ModuleManager.

When a standard is settled on, I'll conform to it, but right now I just want to play! This means getting a decent set of realistic values set for TACLS and I'm finally good to go. Last value I need here is physical food density, ballpark realistic figure.

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Lightwarrior

Lightwarrior

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Simpler is better. It is goog enough now and no changes are needed.

I dont really know how it is made IRL, but i think that there are some numbers how much food/water/oxygen is required daily, and than all planing is done based on how much "daily norms" will be needed for the mission. Because mistakes here have very bad consequences, and the simplier system is the smaller probability to make mistake is.

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diomedea

diomedea

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...

I dont really know how it is made IRL, but i think that there are some numbers how much food/water/oxygen is required daily, and than all planing is done based on how much "daily norms" will be needed for the mission. ...

Indeed IRL serious logistical planning is done with "daily norms". I have direct knowledge about military logistics, and at least with men's consumptions, they are planned just in terms of "daily rations". This approach is so widespread to be used even for other goods with a consumption independent of time, like ammunitions or POL (read "Petroleum, Oil and Lubricants"), so to facilitate the planners: they don't have to know a single thing about how much a ration is.

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federicoaa

federicoaa

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I took a look to the parts file and it was quite easy to make a simple greenhouse to test.

Just copy the content of any other recycler in the TacLifeSupportRecyclers folder into a new .cfg and change the input output

In my example I just made a greenhouse which takes electricity, waste water, waste food, and carbon dioxide, and generates food and oxygen.

Off course it's only for test, but I think something like that (and well balanced) could be added into the mod.

I don't know if it could be added to other parts, like the greenhouse from the H.O.M.E. mod.

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jrandom

jrandom

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more of you have fps drops from the mod or is it me ?

If it's causing fps drops, it's lost in the noise with all the other mods I have installed that can cause fps drops. :) I haven't noticed any particular performance drop since installing TACLS, but then again I've just started using it. I'll keep an eye on things when I start sending up lots of ships.

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Spooks

Spooks

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If it's causing fps drops, it's lost in the noise with all the other mods I have installed that can cause fps drops. :) I haven't noticed any particular performance drop since installing TACLS, but then again I've just started using it. I'll keep an eye on things when I start sending up lots of ships.

i removed it and my fps is out the yellow i dont know why dont have alote of mods i do use the MIR mod it use a life ting maby it wont work whit TAC

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WafflesToo

WafflesToo

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i removed it and my fps is out the yellow i dont know why dont have alote of mods i do use the MIR mod it use a life ting maby it wont work whit TAC

Green, yellow, and red have nothing to do w FPS, it means the physics are no longer running in real time. I see it a lot too but I can't tell if it's a mod causing it or my 8 year old dinosaur :D

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jrandom

jrandom

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My Realism Overhaul .cfg for TACLS is almost done -- all that's left is the energy usage. In LifeSupport.cfg I see the following values:

ElectricityConsumptionRate = 1200
BaseElectricityConsumptionRate = 2400

My question is: how are these applied, exactly? Is it a flat rate of 2.4 EC/s + 1.2 EC/s per kerbal? But that seems a bit high compared to observing a pod drain it's batteries in-game.

These numbers, I must know what they mean!

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eggrobin

eggrobin

Posted
Posted 
ElectricityConsumptionRate = 1200
BaseElectricityConsumptionRate = 2400

[...]

These numbers, I must know what they mean!

These are EC/day (1 EC/day = 11.57 mW under the usual assumption that 1 EC = 1 kJ). This means that the base consumption of a pod is 13.8 W, and that the additional consumption per kerbal is 27.7 W.

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C4pt.Miles

C4pt.Miles

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That's why you have electrical charge drain; it's already been abstracted.

Yes, but in Skylab (RL) they had also the problem that the station was to warm to work on. So I think it would be nice to have some heat radiators witch usw very litle energy during a station is in the sunlight. But when the station is in the shadow you need a lot of energy for heating...

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jrandom

jrandom

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These are EC/day (1 EC/day = 11.57 mW under the usual assumption that 1 EC = 1 kJ). This means that the base consumption of a pod is 13.8 W, and that the additional consumption per kerbal is 27.7 W.

EC / day -- that's the exact information I needed. Thank you.

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regex

regex

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Yes, but in Skylab (RL) they had also the problem that the station was to warm to work on. So I think it would be nice to have some heat radiators witch usw very litle energy during a station is in the sunlight. But when the station is in the shadow you need a lot of energy for heating...

Right, and what I'm saying is that it's already been abstracted into the electrical charge that every Kerbal uses. I can see how you might want a light/shadow mechanic, but it's not really needed.

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WafflesToo

WafflesToo

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Yes, but in Skylab (RL) they had also the problem that the station was to warm to work on. So I think it would be nice to have some heat radiators witch usw very litle energy during a station is in the sunlight. But when the station is in the shadow you need a lot of energy for heating...

The heating issue with Skylab was caused by damage from a staging mishap (the thermal shield and solar panels got hung up on the shroud and torn off). Climate control is abstracted in the mod rather than dealing with the specifics.

If it's something you really want I'd suggest installing the Interstellar mod as well as this one.

(I saw that episode too btw. It's been funny watching that issue bite him in the butt time and again :D)

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jrandom

jrandom

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Is there any way to modify BaseElectricityConsumptionRate and ElectricityConsumptionRate using a ModuleManager .cfg? I've been unable to affect these values. I've tried the below (also without the '[*]' bit).

@GlobalSettings[*]
{
    @BaseElectricityConsumptionRate = 43200 // 0.5 kW base rate
    @ElectricityConsumptionRate = 14400 //0.166666... kW per kerbal
}

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