Dear Developers.... (Feedback | Please Read)

[alaskafish]

Hello... before I start, this is no about me asking when the 0.21 update is out. It's actually more of a hold back. Let me explain.

As we know 0.21 will break saves, and this is causing lots of players noobs and pros to set back from KSP until the new update. Now, the devs did say that the reason the saves are breaking is because of the whole crew management. As a result, they added the redone textures/models of the planets knowing that they will no doubtfully break saves. From my understanding from the media group, dev blogs, and such, told me that; Kerbin, Mun, Eve, Duna, and Moho have been redone. From the pictures and, they look fantastic.

However, the one thing that peeves me the most, is that other planets/moons didn't get an update. Now, I completely understand why, it's a pain in the *** to add those craters and ask your artists to remake HD textures and so on (Not being sarcastic, honestly mean that). It's just that, these planets/moons would look so great, however knowing that the whole texture/remodel thing breaks saves.... I'm not too sure about how people are going to react to when they don't play KSP for 1 month because of the saves breaking for 0.21, then when the others moons/planets are redone saves break once again, and people end up not continuing what they were doing after 0.21 (asuming that this update comes out in 0.22)

So in a nutshell, I actually want the devs to overhaul the whole system and finish the rest of the planets/moons, before they release 0.21 with only Moho, Eve, Mun, Kerbin and Duna. Unless there is a way to make it compatible with saves of 0.21 and above depending on when you choose to add the redone planets/moons.

From my understanding there is 10 planets/moons that must be redone, those being; Gilly, Minmus, Ike, Dres, (Jool?), Laythe, Vall, Tylo, Bop, Pol, Eeloo.

Now, I'm not sure if the developers were entirely thinking of remaking these moons and planets... maybe it wasn't planned, then I'm completely sorry for asking so much. Otherwise, I'd rather wait longer for 0.21 so the developers can withhold saves breaking for future updates, and add these wonderful planets & moons. This is mainly for the sake of those who like to build massive space stations, Bases, or just get something into orbit without having to realize that in the future, it was all mere 'waste of time' (Maybe not the best word choice... Maybe practice?).

Hopefully the Squad can read this and some people can agree with me.

Sincerely,

Alaskafish

[orangexception]

Scope creep is bad.

What you're asking for would basically be ruining this entire release cycle. I could go into it more, but I'm writing code...

[chaos_forge]

They can update the surface of planets without breaking saves, it's just that any bases you might have on the surface could end up underground, which happened in .20 with the Mun. But as long as they warn people that they're doing it, I don't see why that would be a problem. Either way, it's far too late now, they've already passed on to experimentals, no new content is going to be added to .21

And anyways, this post would make more sense in the development sub-forum.

[prawn_creep]

I agree! I'd rather wait longer for something great, and not end up having to just delete the save once the next update comes out. Vote Yes.

Scope creep is bad.

What you're asking for would basically be ruining this entire release cycle. I could go into it more, but I'm writing code...

What do you mean cycle, there was never a cycle.... It came out when the people wanted it.

[legodragonxp]

The game is still in development, in my opinion expecting saves not to break when it is still this young is unrealistic for a company of this size. Dragging out the development for .21 just to get a few more planets re-rendered is also a bad idea. Better to update one and get the feedback/find the bugs and then look at the others rather than fix/change/break everything at once.

Again, people seem to keep ignoring or forgetting this, the game is in development and subject to change. If you want to wait for it not to break saves then you should wait for it to be done.

-Lego

[-RanZ-]

They should just intentionally break saves every update so people stop expecting saves to not break... the game is in alpha

[alaskafish]

They can update the surface of planets without breaking saves, it's just that any bases you might have on the surface could end up underground, which happened in .20 with the Mun. <Snip>

However, on Havesters blog he said he added the new craters because of how saves will break.

[DChurchill]

No. It's an alpha. Saves are going to break. I'm not comfortable telling Squad when to release the work they've done.

[Lanfranc]

No, and in all likelihood this won't be the last update to break saves, anyway, so might as well get used to it.

[Xiphos]

Honestly, this game is still in Alpha, Alaskafish. To expect something like you are suggesting is a tall order for any development team in this stage of development. Key word there is 'development'. There are draw-backs to developing a game, and 'breaking' your saves is one of them. We are extremely lucky that we have the ability to work with the development teams and shape how this game turns out. Why not keep the version you have your large stations on, and continue enjoying the new releases on a separate install? Anything you have to do over from a new version will just make you more efficient at whatever task that is. I am expecting my saves to be broken many more times before the final release. And is that a big deal? It shouldn't be since the game is getting better and better with every release. And I don't believe anything is a 'waste of time' if you gained experience from doing it. The more you build and pilot your own craft, the better you will be. See the new release as a new challenge, not a set back.

[Rizzupl]

it took them half a year to implement chairs and new type of wheels. Don't tell them to ,,postpone'' things pls. I'm mad enough. Optimistically resources will leave QA testing phase by q3 2016

[Sof]

I think instead of announcing the update will break saves (this meant that I haven't actually played in a few weeks because I keep thinking "It'll probably be out tomorrow") they should just not say anything at all and just surprise us with a brand new update.

No warning, just wake up and see that your save file is gone and there is a new planet.

[DChurchill]

And it's not that I want it Now! I'm not a four year-old. It's that I have no expectations of what gets released and what breaks.

[3_bit]

I (and probably many) weigh the fun of "NOW" to be more than that of the loss of saves. It has been said that they could be edited to work, so I imagine someone will (because there are a lot of members of the community) write a program to convert it for us. Problems would likely be run into if you use clones (AKA multiple pilots with the same name)

[Rizzupl]

They showed us the whole release on stream, called it ,,done'' and made everyone hype out of their freakin minds. And a week later we still can't play it. Last time, in 0.18, they did it right and released new version right after the stream. Believe me, many people are angry and mad right now.

[stupid_chris]

The update is already out of development. They're doing the very last tiny bits of codefixing by now. Heck, it could even come out this evening. And you're asking to scrap all the past three weeks of bugfixing to update all the planets? IMHO, this is a ridiculous idea.

As stated above, this is an alpha staged game. The fact we can have updates that don't break saves isn't what it should be, it's a real gift. The developers are literally holding back to break saves for us. I'm pretty sure if it wasn't for the community that plays the game, they would theoretically break saves on every single update. They're just being well thought and plan things out to put it in the best way possible for us. They tested the idea for the Mun mainly, and now they're gonna see how it works with the next few updates. I'm 100% sure that the Mun is gonna change again before 1.0, and so will all the planets. Saves will break again and again, changes will come, stuff will be done, and updates shall be. That's the life of the development cycle.

EDIT:

They showed us the whole release on stream, called it ,,done'' and made everyone hype out of their freakin minds. And a week later we still can't play it. Last time, in 0.18, they did it right and released new version right after the stream. Believe me, many people are angry and mad right now.

No, what they showed on the stream is an experimental version. A test version. A stable build. But it's far from being a final product and something they can release. If they were to get that out then, You would likely be angry at the amount of bugs in it and scream it over the forums. The amount of bugs in a version isn't proportional to the amount of content, or even the amount of work put into it. Bugs appear for no reason and at unexpected place, and you can't know how different parts of the coding are gonna react together until you test it. And that's what they're doing. Yes, some people are angry, but I can tell by far that those people form a minority. Be patient, grasshopper, things will come when the time is right, and getting angry about it will attract nothing but trouble and disappointment.

Edited July 24, 2013 by stupid_chris

[iamaphazael]

You're playing a game that is still in heavy development. You should expect that your save games will get broken at least once every few updates. That's just the nature of the beast. Either get used to the idea, and don't get too attached to your work; or don't play the game until it's finished.

As for your suggestion, development decisions should not be made based upon saved games being broken or not. Period. Decisions should be made based on what will be best for the final product, and for what the best way to get from here to there is. What is best for us players at any particular moment should not be a major factor in the development timeline.

[Uberick]

I don't really care if they break saves or not. . . they should do what needs to be done to make the best game they can in the most timely fashion possible; if losing a few saves along the way is what that costs, then so be it.

I, personally, would rather see an accelerated development schedule that leaves us with a more rapidly changing game that results in broken saves MORE often. Sometimes I wonder if the Dev's are slowing down the progress of development for fear of annoying the large user base that already exists and has poured a ton of time into the game.

[RocketPilot573]

You know that it only takes a 5 minute save file edit to fix the "underground craft problem" right? Seriously, all you need to do is raise the altitude of you ships to somewhere above the terrain. All you need is Notepad, a Keyboard, and a Mouse.

[stupid_chris]

You know that it only takes a 5 minute save file edit to fix the "underground craft problem" right? Seriously, all you need to do is raise the altitude of you ships to somewhere above the terrain. All you need is Notepad, a Keyboard, and a Mouse.

No, if that was the issue, we would know it already. Most of the problem probably comes from how crew is handled in the save file, and that is modify the craft's code. The save file will be totally different, that's the problem here, not the terrain of the Mun.

[Rizzupl]

@stupid_chris

You just sound like a massive white-armored guardian of Squad. You won't admit that teasing people for so long and QA testing that takes half of development time is any bad. You accept and praise every step they make. I know this forum is just a hugbox , but cmon be honest with yourself. It's not like this update brings any big content like all versions before 0.19 did. And they take even longer.

[alaskafish]

Alright people. Stop hating. It was idea to prevent New comers to the game from complaining about what happens when there new orbit or there flag on the Mun is gone.

Not saying names, but some of you have been acting as if I was trying to postpone the update so all of you would have to wait on purpose just for 'my' pure diabolical plans (which I wasn't)......

Plus, why must people say something a million times... "It's in development.... its in alpha... It's in development...." If someone said it, it's said. No need to say it again..

Can a Moderator just lock the thread or something... It's just starting to become a giant mess of arguing.

Thanks.

Edited July 24, 2013 by alaskafish
So I can say thanks after before topic is locked

[Catullus]

They showed us the whole release on stream, called it ,,done'' and made everyone hype out of their freakin minds. And a week later we still can't play it. Last time, in 0.18, they did it right and released new version right after the stream. Believe me, many people are angry and mad right now.

And those people should sit back and think about their sense of entitlement for a while.

To address the OP's point, I've always assumed that every new release will break saves, which is why I keep playing the old one too. As long as the craft files are portable I don't really mind. If they're not... well, it gives me a chance to get it right!

This, btw, is why I don't think career mode is such a good idea until KSP is a bit further along in the dev cycle. If I was playing career mode and my save was borked, I might get a bit miffed.

[Rizzupl]

Alright people. Stop hating. It was idea to prevent New comers to the game from complaining about what happens when there new orbit or there flag on the Mun is gone.

Not saying names, but some of you have been acting as if I was trying to postpone the update so all of you would have to wait on purpose just for 'my' pure diabolical plans (which I wasn't)......

Plus, why must people say something a million times... "It's in development.... its in alpha... It's in development...." If someone said it, it's said. No need to say it again..

Can a Moderator just lock the thread or something... It's just starting to become a giant mess of arguing.

(( Yummy, MOD BAIT, I love that first thing in the morning. -Moderation team))

Edited July 25, 2013 by sjwt

[stupid_chris]

@stupid_chris

You just sound like a massive white-armored guardian of Squad. You won't admit that teasing people for so long and QA testing that takes half of development time is any bad. You accept and praise every step they make. I know this forum is just a hugbox , but cmon be honest with yourself. It's not like this update brings any big content like all versions before 0.19 did. And they take even longer.

Oh ho there. I'm not defender of Squad, I defend solely what is right. Squad aren't god, they are not perfect, they make mistakes and some things they do are still rough on me, but your attack is unjustified. As I said, the time needed to correctly test everything is far from being proportional to the development time. Some updates can be quick on testing, others not. That's nothing to make a fuss about.

Now I think you are underevaluating the assets brought to us in .19 and .20 because you totally overlooked infrastructure and backend work. .16, .17 and .18 were all content updates. They were all updates who brought us new stuff and made everyone happy. Problem is, after a while, you need to optimize. You need to return in your code and reshape things to be able to still add some more stuff over. If you don't you'll end up wasting space, time, and therefore money. The last two updates we focused on working with the infrastructure and the coding. Those are all necessary foundations to the future updates that are inbound. You can't build a building by starting with the 30th floor, you have to build the foundations, the basement, the first, then second, and third floor, all the way up to the 30th floor. Even if the company that will own and that pays for the building is on the 30th floor and that all the other floors will be rented by small companies, you gotta start from the bottom to get up there. And that's what Squad is doing.

I'll remember you that you paid for a game in early alpha, not a complete product. You get the updates, but not to control what comes with the updates. You are not positioned in any way to tell Squad what to do, just as you aren't placed to tell Sony how to build the next Play Station, even if you preordered it. You paid to get it. IF that doesn't make you happy, the only thing I can suggest to you is to take a break from the game and come back when it's complete, you paid for it anyway. You can now proceed with your pointless joke on how that will be in 2025, the facts are still there.