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Come back old ASAS - all is forgiven!

ComradeGoat

By ComradeGoat
in KSP1 Discussion

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carazvan

carazvan

Posted
Posted
Iam really looking forward to when i come home from work and try it out for my self, and i bet i will have the same issues as you do, but i allso bet that i will get the hand of it.

Wait .. so you're telling us everything is fine without having tried it yourself? ....

I was getting angry but instead ... lets just say ... NO COMMENT

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SkyRender

SkyRender

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For the record, it was built in a fresh download of 21 and not carried over from a previous save, and I have no mods installed. SAS mode is on with T, and I tried tapping F, which made no difference. I tried the design with each control piece type separately, and then combined them; NO permutation of control parts can hold a heading, though some deviated more slowly than others. When watching the ship zoomed in, I can't see the engine pivot at all, and control surfaces only move slightly.

Just so you know, those tailfins are not control surfaces; they're just aerodynamic, and possess no actual maneuvering capabilities. Try it again using winglets instead. Also, move the reaction wheel to just above the engine; having a reaction wheel right next to the command pod is useless, as that gives you unbalanced torque.

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boxman

boxman

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@Vanamonde

Do you have electricity on that rocket??? I dont see any in those screenshots.

And I just launched a 7 mainsail lifter using 7 large red tanks and no canards/control surfaces at all and it still kept heading perfectly.

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boxman

boxman

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Posted
A good point. People having trouble with the SAS, is your KSP from Steam? Mine's from Steam, and I'm having trouble with SAS.

I have the regular squad store version and it works perfectly fine here..

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Vanamonde

Vanamonde

Posted
Posted (edited)
those tailfins are not control surfaces; they're just aerodynamic,
The ones in my pictures are the slab canards; the WHOLE thing pivots. (Zoom in on it: they even have a little warning sign about moving parts. :D ) As for power, when I right-click on the cabin, its charge is declining but it does have power during the ascent. And in case it is an issue, I get my games through the store and not Steam, and I'm running in Windows. Edited by Vanamonde
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SkyRender

SkyRender

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The ones in my pictures are the slab canards; the WHOLE thing pivots. (Zoom in on it: they even have a little warning sign about moving parts. :D ) And in case it is an issue, I get my games through the store and not Steam, and I'm running in Windows.

Regardless, those are meant for planes. Their maneuverability is far more delicate than that of winglets, meaning they're far less effective than winglets for keeping rockets balanced as well. I tested your rocket there using winglets instead and put only one reaction wheel on it (down between the fuel tanks and the engine), and it flew straight as an arrow with SAS on.

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Tiron

Tiron

Posted
Posted

Steam windows version.

Title screen indicates 0.21.0.272

I've recorded a video of the behavior I've identified, and am uploading now. In 1080P so it's going to be quite some time.

Basically what I've seen, is that when you let go of the controls, it seems to set the 'hold' point some way 'ahead' of where you let go. How far seems to be proportional to your turn rate: for small rotations it's only a very tiny amount. It then attempts to reach and hold this incorrect attitude. For very minor movements it causes it to slide, very slowly, off the point you're trying to set to one a short distance off it. If you do it precisely enough it can be so close it's barely noticable, but it does make it take a bit of fine tuning to get where you want. very fiddly, precise tuning.

For larger movements, it causes it to miss completely.

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Guardian_Gryphon

Guardian_Gryphon

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First I should note that I use the Steam version, have done a clean re-install, and am working under a brand spanking new test profile.

I think that there may be five distinct problems being talked about in this thread (and others);

  1. People who dislike the new SAS/Reaction Wheels System purely because they don't understand how it works
  2. A Bug or bugs that are causing inconsistency with how the SAS and control systems behave with respect to different craft
  3. A Bug or bugs that are causing the SAS and control systems to behave in a 'squishy' manner (bounceback, etc)
  4. A Bug or bugs that are causing the SAS and control systems to be nonfunctional resulting in extreme veering etc (Perhaps Steam Related?)
  5. A bug or bugs (or working as intended, but very poorly designed behavior) that cause slightly asymmetric craft to veer, and the SAS to fail to correct.

I initially experienced #4 on my first pass with 0.21, but a clean re-install and remembering to place electrical systems on my craft has fixed this issue.

I continue to experience #'s 2 & 3 at this time; I have done the 'Aeris test,' and done some flying with the Ravenspear and my own jet design and noted extreme inconsistency with the behavior of the SAS, as well as frequent 'spongy' or 'squishy' behavior.

I have flown a Kerbal-X to orbit, as well as an 'improves' Kerbal-X with an added RCS system and Inline Advanced Stabilizer. Both exhibit the sponginess in the SAS, and severe under-compensation when trying to correct and hold a heading.

This test ship

s9kfOw7.png

*snip*

I rebuilt this part-for-part based on your images and it flew straight up with no veering or wobbling in the slightest in my current clean-install/new profile.

Someone else commented that you're using tailfins; that's incorrect, those are actually 'Standard Canards,' and do in fact articulate and can be used to control a craft.

I added some asymmetrical parts to the craft to test for ascent issues, and found none. I do not know for sure how this would behave on-orbit in a maneuver however. I then proceeded to add a small asymmetrically placed engine to see if my SAS could correct; it absolutely could not.

Thoughts in total?

There are two main issues here; the one that certain users are having where SAS does not function period, and the one many more in total are having where SAS is just behaving poorly, while still technically 'functioning.' I really dislike the way the SAS seems to treat your velocity vector on the navball as your heading, rather than the spot at which you let off the controls; that is my main gripe with it at present. Secondarily, I'm concerned about the orbital issues people have described. I'll be taking my Kerbal-X-i up shortly to test some of these and will get back to you with results momentarily.

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Torham234

Torham234

Posted
Posted

@Harvester: This test is very limited. In the thick air just above ground and with plenty of control, only a very badly designed plane would have problems holding heading. Here is what I just tried:

take the stock A3 and fly it to 15 - 16 Km altitude (may have to throttle down). It really doesn't take long, 1-2 minutes. set ASAS heading that is at least 10 degrees from the prograde marker. hit Q or E to roll.

Result: the plane resets the heading down to the prograde marker.

The problem seems to be most observable when the prograde marker is some distance away from the ASAS held heading.

Conclusion: I think the problem stems from the fact that whenever there is input from the user, the trim set by ASAS is reset.

PS: Of course, fresh install, new folder, pure stock.

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Tiron

Tiron

Posted
Posted
REALLY

The devs have put so much effort into making this feature so much better! especially C7 and you are just say how bad it is? Wow come on guys

It IS better in many ways, but there DOES seem to be some kind of an issue, possibly more than one, with it at the moment, for at least some people. Rampant Fanboyism frankly doesn't help us track down what's wrong or why. It's an Alpha. Bugs happen.

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Tiron

Tiron

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Posted (edited)
Mine too. I can fly it manually. SAS can't.

I've had that problem with Mechjeb on SSTOs that were pushing controlability and stability right to their limit. I made a design that could Single-Stage to Duna with a Rover, but Mechjeb would lose control of it in the yaw axis on ascent. I had to manual it halfway to orbit before MJ could fly it. It was just so heavy for the amount of thrust, lift, and control forces it had that Mechjeb couldn't cope with it. I could.

Edited by Tiron
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