[0.25]KSP Interstellar (Magnetic Nozzles, ISRU Revamp) Version 0.13

[forsaken1111]

This whole discussion about infinite effort and energy and such would really be better off in another thread. It has nothing to do with this mod.

[Crater]

True the stock solar panels wouldn't be terribly useful for reaching a 1000+EC/s or 1+MJ/s production rate for energy but there are other mods that introduce massive solar panels or other methods of energy generation, like burning kethane in a combustion generator. An array of such combustion generators could get up to the MJ area I'm sure, as could any other method when used in excess.

But really I'm not arguing for the conversion, I was asking why it hasn't been done. If it introduces funny resource loops or issues then its understandable.

Hm... maybe I'll do some testing on my own when I finish up my stock career mode run (which is a blast so far!) and after the next version of this mod comes out.

It's not exactly a loop issue, more of a when do you convert question issue. For example...

* if you up-convert all of your EC to MJ, then someone on the ship turns on a light (or tries to use reaction wheels, or life support), it won't come on.

* if you down-convert all of your MJ to fill your EC storage, then most generator modules will see that EC is full, and stop generating.

* if you happily convert both ways all the time, then yes, it is a loop, as both converters will be running, and, well, who knows whether you'd have an EC or MJ at the precise instant that you requested it, regardless of how much of the other you may have to hand.

So what you need is something that can intelligently make sure that there is both stored capacity and spare capacity on both sides of the conversion equation. So, you could, for example, make sure that all storage containers for both types of resource were at an equal percentage full, so you could have 27.1% capacity on your MJ, and 27.1% on your EC, and if someone used a load of EC, you'd down-convert until the percentages matched again, and vice versa. However, I don't know of any generator (converter) modules out there at the moment that could be made to work that way. They are generally of the "stop only when I have no input or the output tank is full" variety.

[Tharios]

This whole discussion about infinite effort and energy and such would really be better off in another thread. It has nothing to do with this mod.

True...apologies. Not really a big deal to me, but sometimes I have a hard time dropping something.

[forsaken1111]

It's not exactly a loop issue, more of a when do you convert question issue. For example...

* if you up-convert all of your EC to MJ, then someone on the ship turns on a light (or tries to use reaction wheels, or life support), it won't come on.

* if you down-convert all of your MJ to fill your EC storage, then most generator modules will see that EC is full, and stop generating.

* if you happily convert both ways all the time, then yes, it is a loop, as both converters will be running, and, well, who knows whether you'd have an EC or MJ at the precise instant that you requested it, regardless of how much of the other you may have to hand.

So what you need is something that can intelligently make sure that there is both stored capacity and spare capacity on both sides of the conversion equation. So, you could, for example, make sure that all storage containers for both types of resource were at an equal percentage full, so you could have 27.1% capacity on your MJ, and 27.1% on your EC, and if someone used a load of EC, you'd down-convert until the percentages matched again, and vice versa. However, I don't know of any generator (converter) modules out there at the moment that could be made to work that way. They are generally of the "stop only when I have no input or the output tank is full" variety.

I answered that question in my suggestion for the HV Transformer part. You manually toggle it on or off and when on it converts at a 1000EC -> 1MJ ratio. When you toggle it off, it... has a pretty light on it.

That would be the simplest solution, anyway. To make something that could intelligently read the MJ draw and convert, or convert only excess EC to MJ would be harder... especially with systems that have a variable draw on MJ like plasma thrusters, which can use all available MJ.

Its made easier because there is no MJ storage part, so you don't store up MJ for later. There is no capacity to read in that regard. Really you'd just toggle the up conversion as needed. (Deploy ridiculous solar array, turn on plasma thruster, engage HV Transformer)

Edited October 18, 2013 by forsaken1111

[Sacred Aardvark]

It's not exactly a loop issue, more of a when do you convert question issue. For example...

*snip*

If EC at max, then convert 10% EC to MJ, else do nothing.

Couch programming... *shudder*

No idea how hard or resource intensive that'd be to actually implement in some form* as I don't have experience in KSP modding. However I think it would solve some of the issues you listed, as you'd have generators running and power in reserve as a buffer, at worst you'd be out 10% if you desided to crank your ion engines right after a conversion cycle. Not sure if MJ -> EC conversion would be that necessary, but maybe that's just me.

Feel free to shoot holes in that, I'm sure I missed something

*I'm assuming an actual If loop would be unnecessarily resource intensive, just the first thing that popped into my mind, something probably triggers when tanks are full and generators stop, so could possibly hook into that for the ec-mj convrsion trigger. Anyhoo.. my programming skills are outdated by some ten years or such, so if I'm talking nonsense just call me out on it.

[Fractal_UK]

If EC at max, then convert 10% EC to MJ, else do nothing.

Only problem with this approach is it makes your power supply very "spiky" while most components that use megajoules like to have a nice smooth powersupply.

The main reason that megajoules exists in the first place is because of this problem. Basically, the stock resource system is very simple and each frame it gets some command to add X or subtract Y from the resource totals, if component Z requests more power than is in the bar it gets nothing, even if the next frame is about to totally refill the bar. My resource manager, on the other hand, organises all power consumption and power draw requests, does some decision making to choose which parts get power first (e.g. engines) and how much they get, how much power can be supplied sustainably without depleting the bar, etc etc. Every request is made individually but the actual change to the resource bar is made only once per frame, by the resource manager itself.

There are only two ways I can think of to actually get these problems and make a part, the first is just to put the player in the driving seat and provide a component where, something like the warp drive speed selector, you can toggle up and down how much power you want to convert. The second is something like the Microwave solar power transmitter, which detects solar panel output and bases the power to transmit off that. This second option has the downside that if someone mods a component to produce electric charge, unless it used the stock solar panel or RTG part modules, that power wouldn't get up-converted.

[SeventhArchitect]

Ok! New plan!

Ok, there is no new plan. This be me sayin me ferners settin sail soon ter make me proud ter be captain of the USS er...what was're name again?

[automcdonough]

Been working on a brand new science experiment. Since I added the Dual Technique Magnetometer early in development of this mod as something very similar to the stock science parts, it's time for that part to really come of age. You can record information about the magnetospheres of all the various planets/celestial bodies and send that information back to Kerbin for additional science points.

Screenshot from LKO so I don't give the game away completely:

Looks amazing!

My $0.02, the sensors should come in fairly early. Science lab a tier after the materials lab. The nukes and ions roughly similar tech levels as stock nuke and ion. thermal engines one or two tiers after that.

The warp and antimatter drives should't even start until the stock tree is over with, super high tech stuff there. Then the particular upgrades even further down the line, need extreme amounts of science to unlock them. Even if it means having to use a 2nd part as the upgraded version..

[Fractal_UK]

Science lab a tier after the materials lab. The nukes and ions roughly similar tech levels as stock nuke and ion. thermal engines one or two tiers after that.

The science lab and magnetometer are relatively late in the tech tree, at present. I'm just playtesting the system at the moment, this is also my first go at playing 0.22 but early game it has probably made my job fractionally more difficult because I don't have much new in the way of science at that point but the moment I get a decent solar panel I also have to add radiators, so that added an extra part and extra weight to my Duna return ship (I still had way more fuel than I needed though).

I've tried to outline this here on my not very good screenshot:

The nuclear reactors and thermal rockets come in Nuclear Propulsion, just like the NERVA. My modded versions are only marginally better in Isp and often worse in TWR so I don't see any point in holding them back. The generators, however, come in one of the electrical techs so you won't get the ability to generate hugh amounts of power *and* have lots of electrical power simply by unlocking one tech.

The warp and antimatter drives should't even start until the stock tree is over with, super high tech stuff there. Then the particular upgrades even further down the line, need extreme amounts of science to unlock them. Even if it means having to use a 2nd part as the upgraded version..

All of that stuff unlocks in the "Experimental" nodes after the end of stock tech tree. Due to the length of that tech tree, none of those parts get automatic upgrades, that's going to continue to be done on a per part basis because there are no suitable nodes. It will, however, be easy to switch all the parts over to upgrading on a specific node when we can customise the tech tree.

[Why485]

Hey Fractal_UK, have you given any thought to basing it off of Yargnit/R4m0n's tree? http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/53192-0-22-TreeLoader-Custom-Career-Tech-tree-Loader-1-0

It might just be an optical illusion, but that tree seems to have a lot more nodes than the stock tree. However, the big difference is that it follows a much more logical and well thought out progression from a gameplay perspective, without delving into ultra-realism. Or are you planning on just waiting for custom trees entirely and then build your own from scratch?

Edited October 18, 2013 by Why485

[Fractal_UK]

Hey Fractal_UK, have you given any thought to basing it off of Yargnit/R4m0n's tree? http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/53192-0-22-TreeLoader-Custom-Career-Tech-tree-Loader-1-0

It might just be an optical illusion, but that tree seems to have a lot more nodes than the stock tree. However, the big difference is that it follows a much more logical and well thought out progression from a gameplay perspective, without delving into ultra-realism. Or are you planning on just waiting for custom trees entirely and then build your own from scratch?

For simplicity, I'd rather stick with the using the stock organisation of the tech tree for now, that can always be changed later depending upon various factors. I'm not really familiar enough with the 0.22 tech tree to want to reorganise it completely at this stage. I am however, happy to use it to extend the tech tree, which is going to look something (exactly) like this:

(Brackets show where new ships are upgraded for free)

Edited October 18, 2013 by Fractal_UK

[Overlord]

For simplicity, I'd rather stick with the using the stock organisation of the tech tree for now, that can always be changed later depending upon various factors. I'm not really familiar enough with the 0.22 tech tree to want to reorganise it completely at this stage. I am however, happy to use it to extend the tech tree, which is going to look something (exactly) like this:

(Brackets show where new ships are upgraded for free)

Cool! Nicely done can't wait to see the next realease, keep at it

[redshift690]

That tech tree layout looks great Fractal_UK! Very excited for the next update! I was wondering though when or how the computer core gets upgraded to agi? Or is that fazed out in career mode?

[Fractal_UK]

That tech tree layout looks great Fractal_UK! Very excited for the next update! I was wondering though when or how the computer core gets upgraded to agi? Or is that fazed out in career mode?

That will remain a "per item" upgrade for the time being. I don't want to add new tech nodes that provide only upgraded old parts, I'd prefer there to be something new in there as well, otherwise the tree starts to look messy. The same will apply to the upgraded alcubierre drive.

[Cairan]

That will remain a "per item" upgrade for the time being. I don't want to add new tech nodes that provide only upgraded old parts, I'd prefer there to be something new in there as well, otherwise the tree starts to look messy. The same will apply to the upgraded alcubierre drive.

Nice tech tree.

[db48x]

Just think of it as a Megajoule -> Electric Charge conversion. Everything that produces Megajoules will give you ElectricCharge but something that produces ElectricCharge will only produce ElectricCharge.

Ah, I see. I've updated the wiki to be less unduly positive, and added a longer explanation on the MegaJoules page: https://github.com/FractalUK/KSPInterstellar/wiki/Megajoules

[Aghanim]

Only problem with this approach is it makes your power supply very "spiky" while most components that use megajoules like to have a nice smooth powersupply.

The main reason that megajoules exists in the first place is because of this problem. Basically, the stock resource system is very simple and each frame it gets some command to add X or subtract Y from the resource totals, if component Z requests more power than is in the bar it gets nothing, even if the next frame is about to totally refill the bar. My resource manager, on the other hand, organises all power consumption and power draw requests, does some decision making to choose which parts get power first (e.g. engines) and how much they get, how much power can be supplied sustainably without depleting the bar, etc etc. Every request is made individually but the actual change to the resource bar is made only once per frame, by the resource manager itself.

There are only two ways I can think of to actually get these problems and make a part, the first is just to put the player in the driving seat and provide a component where, something like the warp drive speed selector, you can toggle up and down how much power you want to convert. The second is something like the Microwave solar power transmitter, which detects solar panel output and bases the power to transmit off that. This second option has the downside that if someone mods a component to produce electric charge, unless it used the stock solar panel or RTG part modules, that power wouldn't get up-converted.

Add a conversion slider/toggleable conversion rate? Setting it lower then the current EC production would make it smooth enough

[doom3607]

Would it be possible, perhaps, to have some way to use the existing Exotic Matter (which I'm assuming is of the negative-mass variety) without the Alcubierre drive to simply make effectively weightless rockets? Would it be at all possible to implement something like that?

[redshift690]

That will remain a "per item" upgrade for the time being. I don't want to add new tech nodes that provide only upgraded old parts, I'd prefer there to be something new in there as well, otherwise the tree starts to look messy. The same will apply to the upgraded alcubierre drive.

Sounds great! Thanks

[Tharios]

Would it be possible, perhaps, to have some way to use the existing Exotic Matter (which I'm assuming is of the negative-mass variety) without the Alcubierre drive to simply make effectively weightless rockets? Would it be at all possible to implement something like that?

I think that might actually render the Alcubierre Drive (I think since White has refined the calculations so well, he should get some credit too...Alcubierre/White Drive, from now on...A/W Drive, for short) obsolete within the confines of a star system. It also might be somewhat OP since the A/W Drive takes momentum out of context, requiring you to expend lots of Delta V to correct it at the destination, or to jump all over to mitigate it.

An effectively inertialess drive would mean you could go anywhere almost instantly and never have to expend much Delta V getting there, or stopping, even with a massive ship and an ion thruster. Even a 3/4 mass ship would be pushing it. 1/2 would cross the line a bit, and 1/4 would be broken. Totally weightless is just...too much.

I think it would be best saved anyway until new star systems show up. Then maybe a 3/4 or 1/2 mass generator might be acceptable for in-system transit...using the A/W Drive mostly for going from system to system.

How's that sound to everyone?

[Xentoe]

I wonder still how the system can / will handel different mods, especial when the tree gets extendet.

will this not cause incombaibilitys (I mean that different mods does overwrite eatch other?)

Especial when new technodes (if they are like you say are limited) have different names?

[Tharios]

I wonder still how the system can / will handel different mods, especial when the tree gets extendet.

will this not cause incombaibilitys (I mean that different mods does overwrite eatch other?)

Especial when new technodes (if they are like you say are limited) have different names?

Yeah, yeah it will. The only way around that would be to have all modders establish a "naming and format convention" and adhere to it so that their work doesn't conflict with one another. And I'm not even sure that would work. But mods that don't affect the tech tree at all, will still be fine.

[Fractal_UK]

I wonder still how the system can / will handel different mods, especial when the tree gets extendet.

will this not cause incombaibilitys (I mean that different mods does overwrite eatch other?)

Especial when new technodes (if they are like you say are limited) have different names?

So far as I know, there is only one mod at present that gives people tech tree options. Each time you load a game with tree loader, you must choose the tech tree that you want to use. At this point you will need to select "KSP Interstellar Tree". Choosing a different tree won't cause any outright malfunctions but it will mean that many components will not upgrade automatically in career mode because you won't have access to the extended tech tree, so I strongly recommend you do use my tree if you're going to play with this in career mode.

---

Additionally, the final missing piece for 0.7 was that after adding in the possibility of fission reactors shutting down due to overheating (when they normally don't power down below 30%) meant that I needed to create some way to restore their functionality. I'm assuming the nuclear reactors have various active and passive safety features that turn them off quickly and inconveniently in the nature of emergency, thus it isn't a matter of simply pushing a button, boots on the ground are needed to restore functionality.

Without further ado, I give you Bob and his spanner!

[forsaken1111]

Can the same be done to manually shut down a reactor from EVA? Please?

[doom3607]

I think that might actually render the Alcubierre Drive (I think since White has refined the calculations so well, he should get some credit too...Alcubierre/White Drive, from now on...A/W Drive, for short) obsolete within the confines of a star system. It also might be somewhat OP since the A/W Drive takes momentum out of context, requiring you to expend lots of Delta V to correct it at the destination, or to jump all over to mitigate it.

An effectively inertialess drive would mean you could go anywhere almost instantly and never have to expend much Delta V getting there, or stopping, even with a massive ship and an ion thruster. Even a 3/4 mass ship would be pushing it. 1/2 would cross the line a bit, and 1/4 would be broken. Totally weightless is just...too much.

I think it would be best saved anyway until new star systems show up. Then maybe a 3/4 or 1/2 mass generator might be acceptable for in-system transit...using the A/W Drive mostly for going from system to system.

How's that sound to everyone?

Granted, it probably is slightly OP. The problem is that it's also an entirely reasonable and fairly obvious application for the negative-mass exotic matter once it exists and you're able to generate it. Maybe it could be a post-Alcubierre drive tech, lumped together with the upgrade for the Alcubierre drives, if that would offset the insane utility even a little.

I would also like to note that you would still have to expend a great deal of delta vee even with mass-reduction tech in place, you would just have a great deal more of it and a far higher TWR.