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Killing your Kerbals: does it make you feel bad?

Boris_T_Roach

By Boris_T_Roach
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LittleItaly

LittleItaly

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Posted

I will try to go out of my way to keep them safe. However, if I have a failing spaceship, I'm likely to put more effort into saving any member of the K Team than the White Suits. I will always save stranded Kerbals, though. As far as manned flights, however, I man my ships from the get go with little unmanned testing

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Hannu

Hannu

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I try to play so that Kerbal's do not die. I test clearly dangerous new things by using unmanned ships etc. But I am not extremist in that. I like to operate on hardest planets (Eve & Tylo) and sometimes something goes wrong. I may try few times quicksave, but if ascent stage is bad, it does not help and then kerbals can die. In spite of every reasonable precautions, deadly accidents are unfortunate part of all large scale activities. So far I have clear record on 0.21, but Eve exploration program has not yet started (first unmanned test lander is on the way).

Sometimes bugs have caused deadly accidents. I have saved game and when I reload it, ship explodes immediately. Then I have thought that it was some technical failure. I think that small probability of technical fault should be at least option in game. Some smaller faults could be fixable in manned ships, if you have time to do that, but if you lose ascent stage's main engine during ascent burn...

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lajoswinkler

lajoswinkler

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Posted
I'm perfectly capable of separating the two, thank you. The point is not "are Kerbals real", the issue is: are you? All anyone here knows of you are words on a screen - words which sometimes show that you don't clearly understand what others meant. We had a program like that back in the early 80s called Eliza, and they've gotten more sophisticated since then.

Because it might still be unclear, I'm not categorically stating that you're artificial - I'm saying that, for all it matters to anyone here, you're an electronic representation too. It's unlikely that you'll meet anyone here unless you already knew them, so to the rest of us, you only "exist" on a computer screen.

So let's not misuse terms like "borderline", if you'd be so kind. This is not the place for armchair psychiatrists - especially since one could as easily draw conclusions based on people who cannot in any way emotionally identify with the protagonists in the movies they watch or the games they play. ;)

So far, no computer has passed a Turing test, though you'd need a live chat to check my capabilities. :)

I wouldn't be concerned about a possible machine behind one's nickname. What worries me more is the possibility that the nickname is a project of few people. An artificial, made-up person. That kind of creeps me out.

I stay with my initial statement - crying over simplistic simulations could be a sign of a disorder, probably a temporary neurosis due to being overly consumed by the game and not having much real life. Ask any doctor.

I'm not saying artificial intelligence is unworthy of empathy per se. One day it will evolve to the point of sucessfully simulating a real brain and it will be as real as our minds. We are not special, we're biochemical soups with self aware mechanisms. AI will be slightly different in form, but self aware, too.

I'm pointing out the simplicity of Kerbals. They're no better than Super Mario sprite on a NES system when it comes to intelligence.

That's no excuse to enjoy being evil towards them (that would say a lot about that person). I've killed tons hundreds of them just to revive Jebediah and was actually bored while doing it because he never showed up. I resurrected Bob, so he's now the only orange-suited guy around. Bill and Jebediah are gone, and I miss those three guys in the bottom right corner. :)

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zpox357

zpox357

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I used to install escape towers on every manned craft... the one time I actually needed to use the escape tower, I somehow flipped the separations whilst building, therefore installing the escape tower upside-down. It did not work out well for the Kerbals. Now, I prefer not to install safety precautions as they generally end up making the crew less safe... Yeah.

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Wesreidau

Wesreidau

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I wouldn't say sad. Sometimes there's mock mourning and all my other little Kerbals walk out to the flagpole for a memorial ceremony, but I'm not -serious- about it. Its more like losing the queen in a chess match; it is significant in the context of the game.

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zekes

zekes

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Posted

I have a rule. Bring every kerb back alive. no matter the cost.

I once saved a man who bailed out of a Duna Spaceplane 80 days after landing.

Now, during firing tests of weapons, i consider the kerbs in target ships to be only crash test dummys.

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HeadHunter67

HeadHunter67

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So far, no computer has passed a Turing test

Let's be honest: Some people couldn't pass a Turing test, if the Internet is any indication.

crying over simplistic simulations could be a sign of a disorder, probably a temporary neurosis due to being overly consumed by the game and not having much real life. Ask any doctor.

I don't think anyone's "Crying", but those same doctors would state that inability to identify with or empathize with one's avatar in a simulation is indicative of a deeper disorder than a "temporary neurosis". The word "borderline" was misused before, but it more properly applies here.

It's not indicative of a mental instability to think of the Kerbals as little people with emotions and goals, to want to preserve them or rescue them, or to be emotionally affected by their successes, their failures or their virtual demise. It's no different than characters in a movie - they may be portrayed by living actors but they're no more "real" than a Kerbal - yet people cry at sad movies or when a favorite character is killed. Are they honestly all mentally ill? Really?

I've worked with flat affect patients many times - if you see what it's like when people aren't emotionally influenced by anything, you might have a somewhat different perspective.

I'm pointing out the simplicity of Kerbals. They're no better than Super Mario sprite on a NES system when it comes to intelligence.

That's no excuse to enjoy being evil towards them (that would say a lot about that person).

I think that's part of the genius of the whole Kerbal thing in the first place. They're not really necessary to the game at all - it could as easily be a routine spaceflight sim, where the astronauts are based on "real" people. You might find yourself more upset if you screw up and kill a virtual human - or especially a virtual Neil Armstrong! You might not be as upset if "Dilbag Kerman" gets killed in a rocket that explodes - so you're more willing to take risks and try outrageous designs... just like those overly enthusiastic, risk-taking idiot Kerbals. They add the necessary comic relief to what might otherwise be a tragic simulation.

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lajoswinkler

lajoswinkler

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Posted
Let's be honest: Some people couldn't pass a Turing test, if the Internet is any indication.

Oh, that's right indeed. :D

I don't think anyone's "Crying", but those same doctors would state that inability to identify with or empathize with one's avatar in a simulation is indicative of a deeper disorder than a "temporary neurosis". The word "borderline" was misused before, but it more properly applies here.

It's not indicative of a mental instability to think of the Kerbals as little people with emotions and goals, to want to preserve them or rescue them, or to be emotionally affected by their successes, their failures or their virtual demise. It's no different than characters in a movie - they may be portrayed by living actors but they're no more "real" than a Kerbal - yet people cry at sad movies or when a favorite character is killed. Are they honestly all mentally ill? Really?

I've worked with flat affect patients many times - if you see what it's like when people aren't emotionally influenced by anything, you might have a somewhat different perspective.

You think people are lying when they say they do? Maybe, but I'm sure there are people that are in a terrible condition when they "kill" a character. Let's face it, you're bound to encounter an above average number of people with poor social skills and/or high addictive personalities on boards dedicated to computer games.

I can differentiate between KSP and watching a movie like "La vita è bella". KSP will never ever bring tears to my face, and that movie did, the first time I've watched it. KSP is mainly about building rockets and less about putting inside nonresponsive 3D animated characters, and the movie has a story with live characters whose lives have been turned into living hell. How can those two things even be compared?

It's expected to be touched emotionally by such movies, a sign of empathy, normal brain function.

Being emotionally nonresponsive towards stuff like Super Mario or Kerbals is not an indicator of problems. Emotionally nonresponsive people, ie. the ones with problems like sociopathy or brain damage, they will show those problems even in situations where vast majority of people will be highly emotionally affected.

What I see as a problem is when a person is playing KSP for an extensive period of time just to kill Kerbals, and enjoy it. Imagine that. 35 years old woman playing KSP for months, not developing space flight, just killing the poor ****s.

"What did you do today in KSP?"

- I made a rocket and landed on Minmus. And you?

"I've spent my afternoon killing Kerbals. 426 of them, 22 more than yesterday. My personal record is 572 per day."

o_O

That should raise some eyebrows... :huh:

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regex

regex

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Posted
What I see as a problem is when a person is playing KSP for an extensive period of time just to kill Kerbals, and enjoy it. Imagine that. 35 years old woman playing KSP for months, not developing space flight, just killing the poor ****s.

"What did you do today in KSP?"

- I made a rocket and landed on Minmus. And you?

"I've spent my afternoon killing Kerbals. 426 of them, 22 more than yesterday. My personal record is 572 per day."

o_O

I think you guys are reading too much into forum trolls.

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HeadHunter67

HeadHunter67

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Posted

Different people enjoy different things for different reasons. But even the people who say they're significantly affected by Kerbal deaths are probably exaggerating - I highly doubt that any of them shed actual tears or feel real grief over it.

I personally think either end of the spectrum could be unhealthy - whether it's someone who just enjoys building Kerbal Death Machines, or someone who doesn't even notice that a crash or explosion killed the little green virtual people.

I'm not worried about the people who can't pass a Turing test, as much as the people who wouldn't pass a Voight-Kampf test, you know?

Holden Kerman: You're in space, orbiting a planet, when you look out your viewport...

Leon Kerman: What one?

HK: What?

LK: What planet?

HK: It doesn't make any difference what planet, it's completely hypothetical.

LK: But, how come I'd be there?

HK: Maybe you're fed up. Maybe you want to be by yourself. Who knows? You look down and see a Kerbal on EVA, Leon. It's hurtling toward you...

LK: Kerbal? What's that?

HK: [irritated by Leon's interruptions] You know what a tadpole is?

LK: Of course!

HK: Same thing.

LK: I've never seen a tadpole... But I understand what you mean.

HK: You press W and launch the Kerbal into an extrasolar orbit, Leon.

LK: Do you make up these questions, Mr. Kerman? Or do they write 'em down for you?

HK: The Kerbal spins wildly, streaking toward thehot sun, firing its jets trying to turn itself around, but it can't. Not without your help. But you're not helping.

LK: [angry at the suggestion] What do you mean, I'm not helping?

HK: I mean: you're not helping! Why is that, Leon?

[Leon has become visibly shaken]

HK: They're just questions, Leon. In answer to your query, they're written down for me. It's a test, designed to provoke an emotional response... Shall we continue?

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  • 2 years later...
Mister Dilsby

Mister Dilsby

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, sal_vager said:

I don't like losing a Kerbal in career, in sandbox though ...

Agreed. I have a couple of sandbox saves to test new designs. In my head (and in my comic) these are simulators Bill Kerman created, and test designs running in those carry the "Bill Space Program" flag. In that save I freely use hyperedit and various other cheats, edit files to get crews back, or just start over fresh with a new roster. But in the main career save (Kerbfleet) which I've been running since v0.90, whatever happens happens. So far (year 6) we are still at zero kerbals killed, and "no one left behind" :D

Edited by Kuzzter
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Cirocco

Cirocco

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Posted (edited)

Good lord yes.

I'm basically a campaign-only player. I play sandbox only to test and design, and to then export said designs to my campaign save. I am terrified about losing my kerbals. It's so bad that I don't dare go beyond Duna with a crewed mission unless I'm 100% sure that I can either successfully complete the mission or abort and return safely.

I wouldn't be able to bear the thought that I killed those poor little critters when all they ever wanted was to go to space and see the shinies.

Edited by Cirocco
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Just Jim

Just Jim

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I have to admit, I feel horrible if I lose even one of my crew.  I know deep down this is just a game, but I will do everything I can to keep my little green buddies safe!

Edited by Just Jim
spelling... again... lol
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swjr-swis

swjr-swis

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Posted

I do try not to get my Kerbals killed or stranded, and build in as much safety/emergency measures, but it hasn't always worked out the best way.

Except for the very earliest moments of my career, when I'm doing all the science and fund gathering to unlock the techs I feel are basic requirements, I tend to make all my crafts probe-controlled, and Kerbals are added to untested craft only when absolutely necessary. Once I feel a ship is reliable enough (ie. out of 'simulation'/test cycle), Kerbals are allowed on, it becomes an 'actual' mission, and I generally put a whole lot more effort and time in keeping the craft and the Kerbals alive. The 'Hooray!' or 'Noooo!' moments do seem to be very intense then.

When I'm just fooling around with the game, building all kinds of improbable flying contraptions, the always added Kerbals are just one more element of hilarity, and blowing up or not just causes different degrees of (what my neighbours must consider) deranged laughter.

I guess internally, I know when I'm playing 'for realz' or just to blow off some steam and have a few laughs. Kerbal lives are either invaluably important in the former, or trivial in the latter. Well, trivial may not be the right word. When Kerbals move into a state of maximum entropy in the line of duty by entertaining me, I consider them to have given their pixels with full honours.

 

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