Action Groups

[FastMINI42]

Sometimes when building a large or complicated ship, I find myself using up the allotted 10 action groups rather quickly. I wind up using the Actions on the Fly mod to change action groups after launch.

I would suggest adding more action groups by using the mod key. Alt+1, Alt+2, etc. This would double the available action groups and it looks like there's already room in the action groups editing window at the VAB.

[drtedastro]

Yes, more key combinations.....

[Duxwing]

I have an even better idea: instead of action groups 1-20, allow n action groups by adding a scrollable, drop-down menu of action groups that can be accessed on any screen. They would by default be titled "1," "2," "3," but the player could change them and even add mouse-over tooltips. Left clicking an action group activates it, right clicking it provides a drop-down menu of such options as "delete" or "rename," and clicking the title bar of the action group (located on its side and given a unique but changeable color) allows the player to drag it. We could even have "Enter" open a little search bar wherein the title of an action group could immediately be typed (backspacing when the search bar would close it) and hitting "Enter" again would activate the action group provided that what was entered matched a name therein. Hitting enter without a matching title would play a sound cue and flash a light on the search bar to inform the player that their typo was at fault.

-Duxwing

[alacrity]

I just want to able to edit/add action groups in flight...

The action groups I use at launch are usually rendered useless once I am up in space. Especially space constructed stations. Once I have docked parts together my action groups kinda fall apart (or totally fall apart).

I am left basically just having a couple of groups to get the ship up and the remaining reserved for whatever base/rover/return vehikle is left over at the end of the flight.

alacrity

[LeadMagnet]

I can't imagine a scenario where you'd need more than 10 action groups. By definition, it's a control command for a "group" of objects. I have problems remembering to set 1 or 2, any more and I'd be writing a flight manual for each launch! Even if you have 3 or 4 separate ships on one rocket, the "group" assignment would still apply after seperation. IE: open solar panels, extend/open antenna, toggle engines on/off, lights, etc.

Editing action groups in flight sounds like a bad idea. If I needed to do this, that would mean I didn't give the build/planning stage of the game enough thought. Kinda like driving a car and deciding to change your radio pre-sets, while your driving! Not only a bad idea, but very VERY dangerous!

[FastMINI42]

I just want to able to edit/add action groups in flight...

The action groups I use at launch are usually rendered useless once I am up in space. Especially space constructed stations. Once I have docked parts together my action groups kinda fall apart (or totally fall apart).

I am left basically just having a couple of groups to get the ship up and the remaining reserved for whatever base/rover/return vehikle is left over at the end of the flight.

alacrity

Try this mod: Actions on the fly .

LeadMagnet, I do try and keep similar AG assignments across ships (8=toggle solar panels, 7=toggle sensors/antennas, 0=toggle gimbals, etc.) but I ran across a situation with a complex orbital tug where I ran out of AG items and needed to change my AG 0 to something else. Once in orbit, no more need to be toggling gimbals

[katateochi]

I can't imagine a scenario where you'd need more than 10 action groups. By definition, it's a control command for a "group" of objects. I have problems remembering to set 1 or 2, any more and I'd be writing a flight manual for each launch! Even if you have 3 or 4 separate ships on one rocket, the "group" assignment would still apply after seperation. IE: open solar panels, extend/open antenna, toggle engines on/off, lights, etc.

Editing action groups in flight sounds like a bad idea. If I needed to do this, that would mean I didn't give the build/planning stage of the game enough thought. Kinda like driving a car and deciding to change your radio pre-sets, while your driving! Not only a bad idea, but very VERY dangerous!

Nearly every single one of my missions requires more than 10 actions groups. I often end up binding other functions to abort, brake and even stage as I'm always several action groups short. Here's an example;

In my current project I have a large (200+ ton) cargo transport craft that lands VTOL style on Mun or does orbital deliveries to further planets. It has to be able to deal with different cargo and fuel loads and remain balanced during a landing. To achieve this it has adjustable engines at the front and rear (the VTOL engines from B9) so I can adjust front/rear thrust balance and that alone takes up 4 action groups. 3 more groups are taken up toggling different engines sets (IP drive engines, low power VTOL landing engines, high power central landing engines) and another one to reset all adjustable engines to the same angle. 8 groups gone just on engine control! The onboard crane then takes the rest plus o,p,; and # and so I use brake to toggle the cargo bay doors and abort to toggle Qstruts that secure the cargo. And then there is the cargo that includes solar panels, sat dishes, a full set of kethane gear, life support systems and a rover (plus half a dozen KAS winches). I could actually use ~30 action groups on this craft!

So yes, I usually end up writing flight manuals for my craft! (see action group table at the bottom of the initial post).

You only need look inside the cockpit of any modern flying vessel, never mind space vessel so know that 10 control buttons ain't going to cut it! If you can't remember all your action groups, and I certainly can't, then make use of the B9 info drive which enables you to write notes about what each group does and keep that attached to each craft. It's standard issue for my craft now.

I don't agree that being able to rebind action groups is a bad idea and I can't see how that would be dangerous. You can re-arrange the staging menu during a lunch if you so choose so this would be analogous to that (less risky imho). It would actually be a simple and elegant solution to the lack of available keys and provides a way of looking up what action group do (if you forgot your info drive). You could have your action groups that are concerned with flight and then once you land you can re-assign them for the running of base components, for example.

I really don't like the idea of having a menu as a solution to increasing the number of action groups, half of the reason for action groups is not needing to fiddle with menus, partly for speed of access and its important for those of us who want to film cinematic shots. Having to pop a menu up in the middle of that detracts from being all cinematic. That said, if it was the only way to extend the number I'd still take it.

A couple days ago I was about to make a new post about an idea I had for increasing the number of available action groups, but I got side tracked, so I'll put it here and hope it gets discussed. I'll do my best to explain it, in my head it makes perfect sense but what's in my head and what gets conveyed ain't always the same, anyway... here goes;

Stage specific action group sets.

Basically you start out exactly the same as we have now, only difference is that there is also an icon in the staging list that represents the first set of 0-9 action groups and by default it is in the first stage. If you didn't do anything to it then you'd have exactly what we have now.

The change is that in the action group editor you can choose to add a second set of 10 and another icon will appear in the staging list. In the action group editor you can define 0-9 actions for the first set and a different 0-9 actions for the second set and by moving the icons in the staging list you define when the different sets take effect. So now you can have your first set of 10 action groups in stage 1 and then in stage 6 (for example) you have the second 'action group set'.

In the second (and later sets) you would also have the option on each 0-9 group to 'inherit' which will mean that a particular action group will have the same function as it did in the previous set. For example in the first stage's action group set you may have solar panels on group 1 and a load of other things on the other groups. In the stage 6 set you could set group 1 to 'inherit' so that group is sill solar panels, but then define a different set of functions for the other groups. With groups that inherit they would automatically change if you changed them in the previous set. So in the example of group 1 in stage 1 being panels and being set to inherit in stage 6; if you added another panel to stage 1's group 1 that would automatically be included in stage 6's group 1.

You could then define as many action group sets as you have stages, if you really wanted each stage could have a different set of 10 action groups (thou personally I think that would lead to insanity). But for example your horrifically complex mining rover can have its specific 10 action groups set on the stage when it decouples from it's lander but up until then the lander was functioning on its specific action group set. Once decoupled the lander still has its original action groups but the rover is now on a different set. if the lander and rover re-docked you could move the sets around so the desired one is in the current stage.

So the other advantage here is in docking multiple ships together. When you dock the staging list merges and you can (and often need to) re-arrange that after docking. You can take the action group set that you want in control and move that to the current stage and have the docked craft function according to that, when you undock you can switch back to the action group set for the departing craft. This means that you don't have to make absolutely sure that all your craft that are ever going to dock have compatible action groups and you don't (as I did in the above linked thread) have to get excel out and write it all down, cos who wants to get excel out in the middle of what is supposed to be fun!?

Anyway that's my possible solution for a flexible system that leaves it as it is for those who don't care for more than 10 groups, while opening up the option to have 10 different groups per stage (if desired) for us lunatics who want lots of controllable parts on overly complex ships and also addresses how to deal with merging action groups when docking ships that have different action group setups. Interested to hear what you guys think. Sorry for the long post!

[Pulstar]

Using light either from the aviation lights mod or from Bac9's pack I find myself running out of actions groups rather fast. I may for instance have just lights inside the cargo hold on one key, red lights that flash for docking under another, omni-lights to illuminate the hull under another. Then you have things like deploying solar panels, antennas, regular search/spotlights for landers, engine toggle (for designs that undock and re-dock like apollo style lander-orbiter missions), ladders, rover wheel steering modes, scientific instruments (which we'll use more once research is added hopefully in 0.22). You can also use them to toggle individual lander legs and if hinges, turntables or robotic arms/joints get added they would be useful for those as well.

An expanding menu with buttons/icons for action groups past the first 10 would be very useful, something that shows on demand by hovering the mouse over an icon of the menu or by clicking on such an icon/button first. So that it doesn't clutter the screen.

[Sparker]

I have an even better idea: instead of action groups 1-20, allow n action groups by adding a scrollable, drop-down menu of action groups that can be accessed on any screen. They would by default be titled "1," "2," "3," but the player could change them and even add mouse-over tooltips. Left clicking an action group activates it, right clicking it provides a drop-down menu of such options as "delete" or "rename," and clicking the title bar of the action group (located on its side and given a unique but changeable color) allows the player to drag it. We could even have "Enter" open a little search bar wherein the title of an action group could immediately be typed (backspacing when the search bar would close it) and hitting "Enter" again would activate the action group provided that what was entered matched a name therein. Hitting enter without a matching title would play a sound cue and flash a light on the search bar to inform the player that their typo was at fault.

-Duxwing

I was just going to start a thread suggesting almost the same but fortunately found this thread. So, hasn't anyone already done this? In my opinion, button-activated action groups are good for things which require to be done immediately, like stage separation. For other things which don't require your immediate reaction like extending/retracting solar panels, activating/deactivating RCS ports or lights there should be a menu where a user could put larger amount of action groups with possibility to rename them. Squad has done such a great job on interface in recent updates, I hope that action groups will become better in next versions.

[Atoning Unifex]

I've said before in other threads that there is a lot of similarity between staging and action groups - you can perform everything you can in staging from an action group, for example. Rather than treating them as two separate entities I think they should be looked at in a more unified way.

For example, why not allow any action to be performed in staging, like extending/retracting panels, locking/unlocking gimbals, raising/lowering gear, lights, etc. You could effectively stage all the time sensitive actions you have with other staging, to free up action groups.

Naturally action groups themselves should remain for other uses. katateochi's suggestion of multiple sets of action groups might be useful. I made another suggestion about breaking up staging lists into groups - to separate mission parts (launch, return etc), and also providing a mechanism for keeping staging of docked craft separate. These stage groups could each have their own action group set.

The UI would need updating to easily display all this info though, maybe having icons that display the actions when moused over.

[Sparker]

For example, why not allow any action to be performed in staging, like extending/retracting panels, locking/unlocking gimbals, raising/lowering gear, lights, etc. You could effectively stage all the time sensitive actions you have with other staging, to free up action groups.

You are reading my thoughts! I also thought of that. It would be especially useful for RCS ports because usually RCS ports from all stages aren't needed to work from start and it is needed to activate them together with stage separation. And later the payload 'takes' all the action groups from the launcher... and they mess up if you try to dock different vessels...

[Persa]

After reading this thread I have come up with a UI tweek to add some of the possibilities mentioned here.

Regarding:

Stage specific action group sets.

I think it's better to create stages that are actually AGs.

For example, why not allow any action to be performed in staging, like extending/retracting panels, locking/unlocking gimbals, raising/lowering gear, lights, etc. You could effectively stage all the time sensitive actions you have with other staging, to free up action groups

So sticking with your point of view katateochi, I think the best thing would be to bind the AG sets to command pods/modules instead of stages. Then add a hierarchy system that only activates the AGs of the main ship(or you could choose which is the main command pod). So when another thing docks to it, each one preserves their AG sets but only one set would be "active".

In the staging system mentioned by Atoning Unifex, an action of a part is added to the staging sequence via the tweakables right-click menu showing all the actions of the part. This also means that Stage 0 can be used for a pre-launch preparation where you can disable upper stage parts such as rover wheels or RCS ports and activate them with their separation stage. Very clever Watson. Very clever indeed.

From my share, this I believe would be pretty neat:

Yes, this is photoshoped. No, its not a mod I have/will make. (at least for the moment)

At the bottom of the action group menu there would be three buttons: Add, Rename & Bind

The Add button is self-explanatory. Simply adds a new action group with the default numbering.

The Rename button is clicked when an AG is selected to rename it. (Something like renaming the vessels?)

The Binding button is clicked when an AG is selected to enter "binding mode", which allows one to assign a key to that action group. Not necessarily 1-0 numbers, any key including joysticks.

With the new toolbar system(s) you can have a pop-up list of them in-flight and maybe some edit tools such as deleting or reassigning keys.

I personally recomend not to add stuff to AGs unless they are time-dependent. By time-dependent I mean "no time for finding and right-clicking". For example, science that has to be done flying above a certain location.

So, for me, solar panels and lights wouldn't go to any action group because you usually interact with these when you finish ascent or landing(A relax moment after all that stress).

I won't lie though. I do need more than 10 sometimes.

Anyway, it would be nice to have all those solar arrays open at once like a peacock tail with the staging of the main sale.

[Wanderfound]

I can't imagine a scenario where you'd need more than 10 action groups. By definition, it's a control command for a "group" of objects. I have problems remembering to set 1 or 2, any more and I'd be writing a flight manual for each launch! Even if you have 3 or 4 separate ships on one rocket, the "group" assignment would still apply after seperation. IE: open solar panels, extend/open antenna, toggle engines on/off, lights, etc.

Editing action groups in flight sounds like a bad idea. If I needed to do this, that would mean I didn't give the build/planning stage of the game enough thought. Kinda like driving a car and deciding to change your radio pre-sets, while your driving! Not only a bad idea, but very VERY dangerous!

It comes up routinely for spaceplaners. One to toggle the RAPIERS, one to toggle the turbojets, one to toggle the aerospikes, one to switch modes on the RAPIERs, one to toggle the flaps, one to open the cargo bay, one to toggle the solar panels, one to toggle the Vernors, one to trigger the scientific instruments and a few reserved for use by the payload.

Even if you can fit them all in, trying to remember which is which is an absolute pain. Editing mid-flight would be nice (because then you wouldn't have to reserve slots for the payload), but at the very least let us see them.

[Darnok]

I would suggest adding more action groups by using the mod key. Alt+1, Alt+2, etc.

NO! All we need is 10 keys just look at my old suggestion:

- improved action groups, now when we have tweakables it shouldn't be hard to do it like:

First selected "command part" (from first tab in building editor) then set action groups that will be triggered ONLY if that command part is active.

What that means to all of us... if you dock to space station and activate command part from SSTO for example and press 7 you should trigger only actions assigned to that craft, NOT to entire station or other crafts docked into it. Or other way activate space station command part and trigger only actions you made for that station.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/63189-What-I-want-from-Santa-%28and-Devs%29-in-2014

[Wanderfound]

NO! All we need is 10 keys just look at my old suggestion:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/63189-What-I-want-from-Santa-%28and-Devs%29-in-2014

That's all you need, but it's not all I need; see above.

And doing 'em by staging is no good because everything I use action groups for is a toggle that will be switched on and off repeatedly during any flight. My list above didn't even include the several groups you want for toggling pairs of intakes to reduce drag during ascent and fine-tune aerobraking.

Just give us as many action groups as we want, mapped to whatever keys we want. Anyone who doesn't need them doesn't have to use them.

BTW: while I know that there are a few extended action group mods, I haven't found one that doesn't mess up the default gear/lights/abort assignments and works with .24. Any recommendations?

[Capt Snuggler]

I like the idea of binding the action groups to the command pod. it would need a very intuitive user interface in the VAB/SPH for craft with a built in controllable payload/attached lander/other thingy.

it would be nice to be able to drag and drop action groups out of AG menu and in to the staging list. this would cut down the number of AGs needed for many craft.

[Darnok]

I like the idea of binding the action groups to the command pod. it would need a very intuitive user interface in the VAB/SPH for craft with a built in controllable payload/attached lander/other thingy.

it would be nice to be able to drag and drop action groups out of AG menu and in to the staging list. this would cut down the number of AGs needed for many craft.

Thanks and +100 for drag and drop action to staging list

[UberFuber]

I have an even better idea: instead of action groups 1-20, allow n action groups by adding a scrollable, drop-down menu of action groups that can be accessed on any screen. They would by default be titled "1," "2," "3," but the player could change them and even add mouse-over tooltips. Left clicking an action group activates it, right clicking it provides a drop-down menu of such options as "delete" or "rename," and clicking the title bar of the action group (located on its side and given a unique but changeable color) allows the player to drag it. We could even have "Enter" open a little search bar wherein the title of an action group could immediately be typed (backspacing when the search bar would close it) and hitting "Enter" again would activate the action group provided that what was entered matched a name therein. Hitting enter without a matching title would play a sound cue and flash a light on the search bar to inform the player that their typo was at fault.

-Duxwing

This is a great idea.

[DocMoriarty]

I agree that action groups could be improved a lot. I dislike the idea of tying in staging alone because thats way too limited and unrealistic. Just think about a space station or a "space train" with multiple craft docked. There are no stages but distinct crafts which might share action groups or not. Get used to think of objects or entitites which can be a stage but can also be a docked craft. So if i'd refurbish the action group stuff i would do the following:

- Any (reasonable) number of action groups can be defined and optionally assigned a key

- Action groups don't really need key assignments (see UI proposal)

- Action groups get a name which can be used for a button and a description which is shown when the mouse hovers over it's button at runtime (see below)

- A property for the scope of the action group can be set as follows:

• global = same as now, acts on all parts of an assembly including all at runtime docked stuff IF that part of the assembly has a global action group with that same key defined. That way all crafts, stages etc. will be excluded that don't have it globally.

• object = anything between docking ports, so a multi-stage lander for example makes up one object in that sense despite it's decouplers

• stage = anyhting between decouplers and ports

- A new Action Group UI-Window, kinda "dashboard" for the current active assembly which can be conglomerate of 25 docked ships and modules, is created (best at runtime and design time) which can be shown by some mechanic (keypress, button, both) but please leave away that totally superfluous 'i close this window automatically when you open that window' type of behaviour because it's major annoying, inefficient and deprives me of information i need to know ATST sometimes. Instead make independant openable windows that can be moved and pinned and setup-saved per craft instance!

A hotkey always only works on global action groups. Non-global (object, stage) action groups are only triggered via buttons in that new "dashboard" window. The looks of that dashboard window could be a tree-control on the left side which shows the hierarchy (global->object->stage(s), next object->stage(s), ...) and on the main display a list of buttons for the defined actions. Another layout could be column-wise where first column shows all global action group buttons and the next columns show object and stage definitions. Clicking on a button executes the respective action groups. Instead of buttons perhaps even sliders or other UI-controls such as gauges could be defined for action groups for example if something needs to be set by a slider or if it should just show the value of a property in a gauge.

That way you can create very complex "dashboards" for complex craft and even use them when the craft is just part of a way bigger complex structure of crafts and modules docked together since the dashboard will always be generated combining the individual definitions of all craft. Could be super-cool.

[richfiles]

I'd also like to make a very simple suggestion, one Squad could likely implement with VERY minimal effort...

Add 10 more action groups on the number pad.

Modern keyboards treat the number pad and the number row as different keys... The computer can tell the difference between whether you pressed the number 1 above the Q, vs the number 1 on your number pad. That one minor upgrade would give anyone with a full keyboard, or a number pad accessory attached to your computer by USB, access to 20 action groups, out of the box.

Furthermore, if the config menu supported an action group "list" mode, with "ADD" and a "REMOVE" buttons, or an in game list like what Persa suggested, then maybe you could assign ANY unassigned key or combo to add additional action groups at will... The default would just be the 20 that comes from 1-9+0 in the row above the alphas, and the 0-9 of the number pad.

If you have a gaming keyboard with macro keys... As long as the keypresses are detectable, you could use them as well. If the keys really only register as macros, then you'd have to first bind them in their driver software to something like Shift-Alt-Numpad1 for Macro key 1 and Shift-Alt-Numpad2 for Macro 2 and so on. Then you would bind, in the proposed action groups configuration list, Shift-Alt-Numpad1 for action group 21, Shift-Alt-Numpad2 for A.G. 22, and so on, till you've run out of macro keys.

Even without the reconfigurable, bindable list though... Adding support for an additional 10 action groups assigned to a keyboard's number pad would double the number of customizable stock action groups. Add the additional "assigned" action groups (gear, brakes, lights, abort), and that would bring the total number of stock action groups to 24. It's a simple solution, and even a cheap full-size keyboard or a USB number pad isn't a hard thing to add to a setup that doesn't have a full keyboard (like a laptop).

 

[Yemo]

keep stock simple and allow modders to fill in the rest

Edited February 18, 2016 by Yemo