Steam Controller and KSP

[Gobbles Gusto]

I wanted to know how everyone felt about playing KSP on the Steam Controller since they've said every game on Steam will be supported. Can they make a gamepad capable of supporting KSP's complex input requirements? I like the idea and hope they can pull it off, it's looking awesome to me, I can't wait to get my hands on one. I really think the design is so good it may even be better to use than keyboard+mouse.

I haven't seen a post about this, so sorry if there has been any already.

Thank you, now discuss!

[Rage097]

it may even be better to use than keyboard+mouse.

...treason!!!!

[regex]

I'm pretty much attached to keyboard/mouse. I liked the PS 2 controller, and even owned a PS 2, but I never bothered with consoles or gamepads past that point (well, except that one time my buddy and I bought a couple, installed MAME, and relived some old arcade fun). So I probably won't be buying the Steam controller or bothering to use it.

All that being said, I don't think it looks like a very good control option for flight or spaceflight.

[rodion]

It's certainly a pretty good idea, but I don't see it being possible to map KSP's various important commands to a single gamepad. I'd like to believe it could be done in a way that isn't completely terrible to use, though; not that I'm going to buy the Stream console system, but good luck to everyone who does.

[J.Random]

nonononononono

Please, NO.

[Geschosskopf]

The Steam controller claims to solve my primary gripe with gamepads: the lack of precision movement input. OK, great, but nearly as big a gripe is the pathetically small number of buttons on gamepads and the lack of a mode switch that precludes assigning more than 1 command to a button. Thus, when the number of commands in the game exceeds the number of buttons, you have to go through this horrific scrollable menu, an unspeakable abomination that, sadly, often finds its way into the PC versions of multi-platform games despite there being no need for it. If the Steam controller shares this weakness with other gamepads, then it's just another gamepad and thus a non-starter IMHO.

[Superfluous J]

Can they make a gamepad capable of supporting KSP's complex input requirements?

They already made a gamepad, and it is not capable of supporting KSP's complex input requirements. The mere thought of setting up a maneuver node in those frequent situations where you're under a time constraint and have to keep hovering over something to get a number, possibly while moving the map to get a view of both the node and target, with ANYTHING other than a mouse and keyboard makes me shiver.

[SkyRender]

They already made a gamepad, and it is not capable of supporting KSP's complex input requirements. The mere thought of setting up a maneuver node in those frequent situations where you're under a time constraint and have to keep hovering over something to get a number, possibly while moving the map to get a view of both the node and target, with ANYTHING other than a mouse and keyboard makes me shiver.

Oh I'm sure an IR pointer ala the Wii Remote could manage to make that pretty feasible. Probably not an actual Wii Remote, however; those things are limited to around 640x480 precision, which is not really enough for any PC setup. But using an analog stick to replace a mouse? Yeah, not a good idea.

EDIT: Actually, a Wii Remote + Nunchuk could work with KSP... if it had a radial menu system set up (the kind where you hold a button, point at what you want to use, then let go of the button to select it). The way I'd see it is something like this:

Analog stick = WASD controls (QEWS controls when B is held)

D-Pad = IJKL controls (HNJL controls when B is held)

Z/C = Shift/CTRL (hold to change linearly, double-tap to jump to 100% or 0%)

A = 1st mouse button

B = 2nd mouse button/Alt

+ = Spacebar

- = Map

1 = Radial menu for action groups

2 = Radial menu for other special commands (SAS, RCS, etc.)

About as clunky as any given PC-to-console control mapping can be expected to be, but it would ostensibly work.

Edited October 3, 2013 by SkyRender

[Katve]

If steam control support will be simple to do and it will not take much time for other task it should be added. But if it takes time from other more important stuff then it should not be added.

[Masked Turk]

may even be better to use than keyboard+mouse

Filthy casual!

[acealeam]

Why do people care if they implement it?

If you don't like it, don't use it. Personally, I like keyboard and mouse, but prefer a controller for things like driving. If you don't that's fine, and if you do, that's fine to. It's really just preference.

[J.Random]

Why do people care if they implement it?

If you don't like it, don't use it. Personally, I like keyboard and mouse, but prefer a controller for things like driving. If you don't that's fine, and if you do, that's fine to. It's really just preference.

Because if they try to implement it, they will have two options: (a) keep two completely different UI in development (which takes resources) or ( make it console friendly as a priority (lists to scan through, cycling through parts and/or menus, wanna-be-smarter-than-player camera, etc, etc - which will screw with PC user experience). Different control methods require different user interfaces. Any compromise will look like Windows 8 *insert horror movie music here*.

[jfx]

You will be able to use the steam controller like a mouse (think: non-crappy notebook touchpad for your thumb with haptic feedback).

[Nachtwind]

Although thats a bit early to discuss but i would think that there wont be a full compatibility with that piece of hardware. As we all know Steam the new input thing will be attached to the steamworks api (like e.g. Workshop and Achievements) and therefore a full compatibility (e.g. using the screen on that gamepad) would include adding the steamworksapi to the game and break its current way of getting released (namely: Steam and Non-Steam).

Thats why i think that there wont be full Steampad compatibility.

If its possible to map stuff to the buttons on it though - then it should basically be doable.

[Ryu Gemini]

There is no reason to really push for the Steam Controller to be specifically supported. At least past getting controllers in general to be supported. Once things like joysticks work, odds are the steam thing will also work.

Also, the current steam controller's image is suggesting of massive fail. It has rather few buttons, and they also are pushed inwards towards the center. Two of them require taking your "primary stick finger" off its stick to hit them (most controllers concentrate these buttons on one side so you can keep one thumb on a stick for the majority of time).

It looks like it might work well for simple platformers. Which you do see a decent number of on Steam. But anything requiring more then 2-3 different button's worth of action while simultaneously moving will be problematic.

Its pretty much doomed to be "not as good as grabbing a USB-enabled Xbox pad" unless they make some changes to the button layout. And I probably wouldn't want to do KSP on an Xbox pad either, to be honest. There are too many things to worry about with the enabling and disabling of so many things. I would probably prefer a traditional joystick as far as inputs go, because I can use the other hand to STILL USE THE KEYBOARD. Which honestly is quite important for a simulator type game.

Edit: You want evidence of the limitations the current steam design has? Look at the proposed bindings for Portal they have shown. The push-to-talk button requires you to STOP MOVING. Which is ok since its a first person puzzle game, but if this were a first person shooter like that game engine is usually used on, I would not want to have to stop moving just to talk. If there is something that needs talking about, odds are I would need to MOVE MOVE MOVE! Or get shot to pieces.

The best thing about the controller is the basic shape (I'm interested in the up-curving handle, to be honest), and the fact that it finally brings an underside button to the table again for the first time I can think of since the Nintendo 64's oddly shaped starship of a controller. Why no one else has tried putting a proper "squeeze" mechanic into a controller for the fingers furthest from the thumb is beyond me.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Ryu Gemini

[Geschosskopf]

Because if they try to implement it, they will have two options: (a) keep two completely different UI in development (which takes resources) or ( make it console friendly as a priority (lists to scan through, cycling through parts and/or menus, wanna-be-smarter-than-player camera, etc, etc - which will screw with PC user experience). Different control methods require different user interfaces. Any compromise will look like Windows 8 *insert horror movie music here*.

This ^. The more I think about the Steam controller, the LESS I like it, for this very reason. While in recent years us PC gamers have had to stomach the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned console GUIs in some games, that will certainly increase and probably become universal, simply because of the size of Steam. Devs will just make the Steam system their default interface for all games and not do a PC-specific version anymore.

[jfx]

This ^. The more I think about the Steam controller, the LESS I like it, for this very reason. While in recent years us PC gamers have had to stomach the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned console GUIs in some games, that will certainly increase and probably become universal, simply because of the size of Steam. Devs will just make the Steam system their default interface for all games and not do a PC-specific version anymore.

Once again, you don't need another UI since the steam controller can replace mouse input. And if a hardcore strategy game dev says that its cool for his strategy game (and possibly even for fast paces micro intensive stuff like starcraft) you can bet playing ksp with it would be no problem.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=84478985&postcount=4391

[accrsd]

the steam controller is likely to be a huge flop in my rough estimate for a couple of very important reasons.

Reason one, the design: Basically what we have here is two touchpads in range of the thumb with your standard four buttons.. except those buttons are in the center framing what looks to be a touch screen. link here so you can have a reference:

http://media.steampowered.com/steam/store/livingroom/controller/SteamController.jpg

now while this looks like a neat controller i can see a couple of complaints stemming from the fact that in order to reach all of the buttons you'll either have to use both thumbs, deciding when is best to remove your thumb from the pad you've bound your movement too and when it's ok to remove your thumb from the pad you have your camera movement bound too, or worse dedicating one thumb to reach all the buttons causing the occasional hit of the touch screen which will likely bring up the steam ingame interface. Apart from that the simple closeness of those buttons to the touch pads is likely to cause unfortunate accidents in which those buttons are pressed, Not good for KSP.

Imagine if you will a launch scenario where you have your pitch and yaw bound to one pad and your roll/throttle to another, because why not, and your stage key bound not to the obvious middle space button but instead to the Y or B keys. You reach the point of the launch where you need to start your gravity turn but the craft is being a little skewed compared to your normal assent and you now find yourself needing to raise your pitch and yaw drastically to try and recover when suddenly your fingernail catches on the Y key and stages the rocket, or alternately you've just gotten to a point where you can open the throttle and have perhaps decided to roll for a more cinematic shot and yet again your finger goes just over enough to catch the b key and now you're out of control with whatever throttle you had set.

back to my main point though the second reason i think the controller will be a flop is that currently most games on steam where a controller can be used already supports a number of other gamepads which gamers have come to have their own preferences, Either with the Xbox or Dual shock style layouts. Personally I have a ps3 controller that i've gotten a program for that lets me use it as a PC controller as well as a Logitech controller with the same layout and then a saitech Joystiq. Now i've used all three of these for flights in ksp and i've got to say nothing quite beats the control of the Keyboard/Joystick combo.

Edited October 5, 2013 by accrsd

[Odo]

the steam controller is likely to be a huge flop in my rough estimate for a couple of very important reasons.

Reason one, the design: Basically what we have here is two touchpads in range of the thumb with your standard four buttons.. except those buttons are in the center framing what looks to be a touch screen. link here so you can have a reference:

http://media.steampowered.com/steam/store/livingroom/controller/SteamController.jpg

now while this looks like a neat controller i can see a couple of complaints stemming from the fact that in order to reach all of the buttons you'll either have to use both thumbs, deciding when is best to remove your thumb from the pad you've bound your movement too and when it's ok to remove your thumb from the pad you have your camera movement bound too, or worse dedicating one thumb to reach all the buttons causing the occasional hit of the touch screen which will likely bring up the steam ingame interface. Apart from that the simple closeness of those buttons to the touch pads is likely to cause unfortunate accidents in which those buttons are pressed, Not good for KSP.

Imagine if you will a launch scenario where you have your pitch and yaw bound to one pad and your roll/throttle to another, because why not, and your stage key bound not to the obvious middle space button but instead to the Y or B keys. You reach the point of the launch where you need to start your gravity turn but the craft is being a little skewed compared to your normal assent and you now find yourself needing to raise your pitch and yaw drastically to try and recover when suddenly your fingernail catches on the Y key and stages the rocket, or alternately you've just gotten to a point where you can open the throttle and have perhaps decided to roll for a more cinematic shot and yet again your finger goes just over enough to catch the b key and now you're out of control with whatever throttle you had set.

back to my main point though the second reason i think the controller will be a flop is that currently most games on steam where a controller can be used already supports a number of other gamepads which gamers have come to have their own preferences, Either with the Xbox or Dual shock style layouts. Personally I have a ps3 controller that i've gotten a program for that lets me use it as a PC controller as well as a Logitech controller with the same layout and then a saitech Joystiq. Now i've used all three of these for flights in ksp and i've got to say nothing quite beats the control of the Keyboard/Joystick combo.

I +1 this. Especially the first 2 paragraphs.

[Geschosskopf]

Once again, you don't need another UI since the steam controller can replace mouse input. And if a hardcore strategy game dev says that its cool for his strategy game (and possibly even for fast paces micro intensive stuff like starcraft) you can bet playing ksp with it would be no problem.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=84478985&postcount=4391

I think you misunderstand. What I'm saying is, in the future, devs who want to release their games on multiple platforms will have even less incentive than they do now to make a PC-specific interface. So, instead of being able to use all the wonderful features of our PCs, we'll be stuck using a gamepad interface suitable to the cheapest console.

IOW, I'm diverging off topic here. I'm not concerned with whether or not the Steam controller will work for KSP. I'm saying that in future games, we probably won't have a choice.

[Garek]

I would expect the Steam Controller to integrate well with the game as it is, without any special support. It's just a fancy gamepad, and gamepads actually work with KSP without a problem (for flight control I mean). For a time I used an gamepad myself to get more precise control. The two main problems where:

1) If I use the four analog axis of a gamepad for pitch/yaw and roll/throttle to get precise control, I don't have any analog axis left for camera rotation, so I either have to switch to the mouse when I want to get another view (screenshots anyone?) or use something like a D-Pad (what the Steam Controller doesn't even have).

2) The gamepad being plugged in caused other games to bug out and plugging it in/out everytime got tedious.

[Ekscalybur]

Steam controller???

Just because Valve made it, doesn't mean it's automatically good. It has touch pads. Touch pads are horrible. Seriously, I would rather have a digital d-pad.

[Gobbles Gusto]

You will be able to use the steam controller like a mouse (think: non-crappy notebook touchpad for your thumb with haptic feedback).

Once again, you don't need another UI since the steam controller can replace mouse input. And if a hardcore strategy game dev says that its cool for his strategy game (and possibly even for fast paces micro intensive stuff like starcraft) you can bet playing ksp with it would be no problem.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=84478985&postcount=4391

I don't think most people are understanding this controller, hopefully that will change when it goes more public.

jfx gets it.

People shouldn't be afraid of new things, the whole idea behind the design of the controller is it has the abilities of keyboard and mouse but with the benefits of a gamepad with even better tactile feedback.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Gobbles Gusto

[Dimetime35c]

I think what no one here has mentioned is will the price of the controller be worth it? I've seen the thing. Touchpads are expensive! This things got TWO on it! For that price I could get a mouse and or keyboard that would be just as good or better then the controller. I think it's a good idea on paper. But compair it to a mouse and keyboard it falls flat.

[Garek]

Well, you have to keep in mind that the SteamController isn't primarily intended to be used instead of keyboard and mouse in a typical gaming PC setup. It's intended to be used together with the SteamBox so you can sit in the couch in front of your big TV and play steam games instead of XBOX or PlayStation. Of course, it likely being a superior controller for use with a gaming PC instead of a traditional gamepad is a plus, but that's not what Valve pays its R&D for.