How to (or not to) SCIENCE!

[rottielover]

Update: I have been watching the Kerbalcon streams, so here is a few items for consideration this far:

SCIENCE transmissions: A cap system for transmission of science is being put in place. (No more SCIENCE SPAM!) Instead, you'll be able to transmit most experiments once (maybe more) but then diminishing returns heavily kick in.

To counter act those deminishing returns a new SCIENCE! Lab has been produced, the "Lab Module", which, when properly manned will allow you to "pre-process" samples and data, before transmitting it back to the KSC (for more points than the cap would have allowed).

The lab will be able to "pre-process" your samples and reports for anything in the active vessel (so as an example, you could dock a rover full of science to your research base and have the base process your science.)

Kerbals on EVA will be able to collect data from all your experiments and even from other EVA'd kerbals and deliver it / store it.

New Biomes! - Minmus is getting a biome map with 8 new biomes.

More to follow...

Science things you can do:

Crew report - Easily transmitted so you get 100% of the SCIENCE points if you transmit these. Transmission costs electric charge, can store a crew report if you desire.

Eva Report - See above, basically this is a crew report but taken if you get out of the capsule. Reports from the field suggest that you can keep one eva report per biome that you've visited. Despite getting the button to "transmit" your report, your kerbal apparently forgot their radio inside in the capsule, so if you want to transmit your report you'll need to re-board your craft.

Surface sample - After taking a sample, you can store your sample in your craft to take back to Kerbin, or you can transmit data about the sample. As with other things science you can get out and collect a sample again and transmit the data again to gain more points on a diminishing returns basis, per biome.

Biomes - According to information obtained by bothan spys, there are two bodies so far with surface biomes, Kerbin, and the MUN. Kerbin has quite a few biomes, deserts, grasslands, mountains, polar, etc. Each biome type affects your SCIENCE experiments in different ways and has some impact on the amount of SCIENCE points you can get. Aside from these multiple biomes bodies, other bodies in the system also have "biomes". These are High Orbit, Low Orbit, and Surface (when landed). Bodies with atmospheres allow you to sample said atmosphere once you've unlocked the more advanced experiments.

Experiments you can do:

Mystery Goo - The new basic SCIENCE part, you observe the effects of different environments on the goo and report it back. Results can either be stored in the goo container or transmitted back.

Materials lab - The more advanced SCIENCE part, as with the goo you observe the effects of the environment on multiple materials samples stored inside the container.

Nose Cone - The Avionics package was removed from the nosecone and now the nosecone allows you to conduct atmospheric experiments. These experiments are data intensive, be sure to bring your batteries if you're going to transmit these results!

"Old" SCIENCE parts - (thermometer, gravometer, etc) - These work and do provide science, I leave it to you dear reader to find out how best to use them

Recovery of Vessels that have been to SPACE! - Recovery of vessels that have been to space produce some SCIENCE points as well.

Strategy's:

DO NOT FORGET COMMUNICATIONS - I can't stress that enough, if you don't place an Antenna onto your craft you can't transmit, and the only SCIENCE you'll get is by making it back to Kerbin in once piece. I've already had a few probes where I forgot the antenna

When you start out with the basic parts the only way you have to produce electric charge is by burning your main engine(s). So one strategy to maximize your SCIENCE points per mission (Sci p/M), is to do as much as you can on the pad (crew report, EVA report), transmit them, then lift off to regenerate your electric charge, (another thing you could do is make capsule only launch, do a crew report, eva report and take a sample of the launchpad, then recover). On the way up you can continue to take crew reports and transmit those that gain you SCIENCE points. If you happen to make it to orbit, take a crew and and EVA report, then return to kerbin and recover, you'll get a few extra points of SCIENCE by letting your engineers study the spacecraft that made it to SPACE! (My personal strategy was to launch just a pod with an antenna on it, transmit a crew report, get out and do EVA report and surface sample, get in and do a crew report and then recover. That gains you enough science to unlock the next node of the tech tree and get a decoupler!)

After you get the Goo Tank, you start adding that to the mix. Several streamers added more than one goo tank to their vessels. This has been dubbed "goo ball" or "goo balling". Remember that bringing multiple experiences back with you has the same effects on your science points as if you had transmitted them all along. IE: If you bring back 10 goo containers you'll get full points for the first processed and then the diminishing returns kick in.

Another viable strategy (it would appear) involves not leaving for the mun for a while. Instead, send missions off the pad pointed at the various biomes on Kerbin, pop your chute over one, land, and then do your reports and samples and recover quickly.

Other Information:

Data Penalty - Also known as diminishing returns. Once you conduct an experiment in a given biome you are free to repeat that same thing, but you will not get the full amount of science points for it. However, it is still worth while to repeat the experiment until you're not gaining much by doing so.

Tips: You can get science by doing flyby's, take a crew report (don't forget you can get out of the capsule on EVA and take an "EVA Report" as well!).

I watched Scott Manley's interview with Harvester video (it's on youtube, check it out), and in there Manley talks about Yargnit doing 4 missions to unlock the entire Tech Tree. Manley thinks he can do it in 3 missions. Now before you get all bent out of shape, Harvester had a REALLY good point. Advanced players shouldn't have to "grind" to get all the parts. If you can figure out ways to collect that much data in 3 missions, that's "super awesome". Players new to the game will spend more time designing and flying missions to gain science, while gaining much needed experience and personal knowledge of how to play the game.

Edited December 12, 2013 by rottielover
Info on .23

[rottielover]

Possum's Tips:

1. Crew reports:

No loss when transmitted.

Are biome dependent.

Only one crew report per biome can be stored.

2. Biomes:

Kerbin- Launch pad, coastal, desert, grassland, highland, water, polar/artic, atmospheric, LKO, HKO

Mun- HMO, LMO, highland, not sure what the others are.

Minmus- HMO, LMO, highland, possible lowland- have not tested.

Kerbal and all other celestial bodies- high orbit and low orbit

3. EVA:

EVA reports can be stored on the capsule, only one per biome.

Have to enter or be in contact with the capsule, i.e. grab the capsule while still outside, to store it.

Kerbals, even then hanging on to the capsule, can not transmit reports.

EVA reports are transmitted at a 50% loss.

Surface samples and be stored, on per biome.

Reports from a Kerbal on Kerbin can be recovered by recovering while EVA. This can be used to recover two reports and samples from one biome by storing one report and sample then collecting a second.

4. Transmitting data:

Multiple reports can be transmitted simultaneously with multiple antenna.

Transmitting the same experiment multiple time until all science is gained from one biome yields the same amount of science points as returning experiments or samples multiple times.

Clicking send data from the antenna will send all stored data.

5. Capsules/ probes:

Yield science points if recovered. Points are dependent on the last body visited.

Orbital and sub-orbital flight yield different points. Do not neglect sub-orbital flights.

Only one crew report, EVA report, and sample can be stored per biome.

6. Experiments

Old science parts yield science only one data log can be stored.

the Goo canister can store only one report.

Science Jr. can store only one report.

Reports are biome dependent.

Thermometer reports can not be logged in high orbits.

Resetting wll dump current data and i will be lost.

Edited October 23, 2013 by rottielover

[Captain Sierra]

The goo and materials lab parts can only hold one experiment result PER PART. This is the advantage of multiple. the crew reports and EVA reports can only be done once per kerbal (I think) before requiring transmission or discarding. Returning to Kerbin ALWAYS warrants 100% science and then some (craft recovery bonus).

[J.Random]

<snip>

Biomes - According to information provided in the stream on Friday, there are two bodies so far with Biomes, Kerbin, and the MUN. The Mun has 2 biome types, basically inside larger craters, and out on normal ground. Kerbin has quite a few biomes, deserts, grasslands, mountains, polar, etc. Each biome type affects your SCIENCE experiments in different ways and has some impact on the amount of SCIENCE points you can get.

<snip>

"Old" SCIENCE parts (thermometer, gravometer, etc) - Did not see anyone use these, were not mentioned in the stream. I'm making a big assumption, but I'm going to assume these produce results that are worth something.

<snip>

I'm pretty sure that here devs mentioned that every crater on Mun has its own biome. Also, old parts (2HOT, etc) allow to log environmental data which counts as experiments.

[jztemple]

When you reset a Goo canister or the Materials Bay, are you losing the data? I was doing this just to close the covers for re-entry, but I think I'm messing up the data somehow.

[sewerbird]

It would appear so jztemple: reseting the part seems to discard any non-transmitted data. Might be a suggestion for debs to 'close' the bay, just like one retracts antenna, in the future

[Flowz0r]

It appears you can currently take 10 of every science generating part into solar orbit, let them all do their thing and get the initial very high science amount for every single part at once if you return to kerbin.

Not sure if that's intended or not, but it seems like an easily exploited bug.

[Superfluous J]

It appears you can currently take 10 of every science generating part into solar orbit, let them all do their thing and get the initial very high science amount for every single part at once if you return to kerbin.

Not sure if that's intended or not, but it seems like an easily exploited bug.

Is that true in all cases or just in the case of a solar orbit? LIke, if I make a 10-goo-ball craft and did the experiment on the launch pad, would I get 10 times the science points for recovering it?

That does sound like a bug in any case. You should get the full science points for the first one and diminishing returns for the rest, just like if you had sent up separate craft.

[Flowz0r]

Is that true in all cases or just in the case of a solar orbit? LIke, if I make a 10-goo-ball craft and did the experiment on the launch pad, would I get 10 times the science points for recovering it?

That does sound like a bug in any case. You should get the full science points for the first one and diminishing returns for the rest, just like if you had sent up separate craft.

I'd have to do some testing, but I'm fairly sure it happens in any case.

I only noticed when I accidentally trashed the wrong science report in solar orbit after my minmus flyby and ended up making two reports with both goo pods in solar orbit and got the same initial amount for both.

[toomuchbrew]

I have found, with research, you get diminishing returns for repeating the same experiments over and over again. When I launch now, I don't get any science from crew reports from the ground through Kerbin orbit. It probably took about 7-10 experiments of the same type in the same relative locations before the returns started generating little to no science.

[jztemple]

I have found, with research, you get diminishing returns for repeating the same experiments over and over again. When I launch now, I don't get any science from crew reports from the ground through Kerbin orbit. It probably took about 7-10 experiments of the same type in the same relative locations before the returns started generating little to no science.

I found this to be true too, and it makes me wonder if there might be some circumstances where you might NOT want to collect data the first time, in case you waste an opportunity to get 100% of the data transmitted, and/or the best Data Gathered multiplier. Or maybe I've just touched down in the ocean and I'm all wet

[griffin247]

anyone else found out that ur kerbal can attch things to ur ship ? well cool

[jztemple]

anyone else found out that ur kerbal can attch things to ur ship ? well cool

What things? I'm trying to figure that out myself... he might as well do something while he's floating out there

[griffin247]

no i removed the com ant from the ship after exploding on the pad i walked around with it then i attached it back onto the ship with a nice tool sound it was well cool.

but anyway everything i put on the pad just explodes so untill i can fig whats wrong my science isnt going very far

[rottielover]

no i removed the com ant from the ship after exploding on the pad i walked around with it then i attached it back onto the ship with a nice tool sound it was well cool.

but anyway everything i put on the pad just explodes so untill i can fig whats wrong my science isnt going very far

I will have to try this, your not running the KAS mod are you? I have that installed currently and it allows you to do what you describe, I wasn't aware it was added to the stock game.

My apologies to all for not updating the title post yet, I've been very busy IRL the past few days. I should have some time either on Sunday or Tuesday to get some updating done and re-format a bit so it's not so much a "wall of text".

Please let me know what things you'd like to see added, or if you have some time to do some testing id be happy to include your findings (like figuring out when deminishing returns kick in / how many times you can do same experiment before you get next to nothing or nothing for it etc). If not I will try and get some of that into the next update when I have time to test it myself.

Thank you for your continued patience with me.

[pa1983]

Well from what I have been told and what I have noticed is that sure you get more points at once for collecting the data (100%) BUT you can collect fewer times before all the science points are harvested in a zone.

So if you decide to send data where you get 20% or 40% you dont realy lose the other 60-80% from what I can tell because you can collect and transmit data MANY more times and thats what other people seems to have concluded to.

My first probe I did flybys off the Mun, Minmus, Duna, Ike and the Sun (just a mater of getting in to its SOI nothing more) and collected data and also some from Kerbin I had left over from a previous mission. That paid out almost 1600 points.

Next probe, simple one, Two small goo canisters for symmetry and one 1m science bay and 3 antennas because, small fuel tank and a 909 engine for orbital manoeuvring. With more antennas I can send more data faster when one or more antennas are busy there is at least on free so more then on is actually faster from a practical point of view.

This probe went to the Jool System, I collected data from Jool, all of it from outer most SOI and then all the data my batteries could manage from the aerobreaking on the dark side of Jool when I was in the Atmosphere I got some points from that.

All planets/moons seems to have a zone closer to the surface that offers more points. Hight of this seems to vary between 200km and 10km. Smaller the lower you need to go.

Then I did another aerobreak around Laythe collecting all the data on the outer SOI and some but not all data offered closer to Laythe until my batteries was drained again. I also went To Vall, Collected all data from outer SOI, Some offered in lower orbit.

I also went to Tylo and collect all data in the outer SOI and some in a lower orbit. Pol I went by twice collecting all data in both a high and low orbit. I also went by Bop and collected all the data in a high orbit and some in a low orbit.

One will be doing a lot of clicking sending all this date thats for sure. Repetitive to say the least.

Then I reentered Laythes atmosphere and collected more of the data there until the batteries where almost flat. Then I deployed a chute and landed the pod in the waters of Laythe and collected all the data offered there and recharged the batteries to transmit it back, about 420 points I got for sampling the water alone. In the end I ended up with 4600 points on the second probe so a total of 6200 points in a days wort of playing with two probes.

I so fare have not found a real advantage to the better antennas, seems to use more power only, even the small basic once works fine in the Jool system and the game picks them by default to for me at least even if the craft has more exotic models.

But any way its very easy to collect a ton of points. I have unlocked all but 7 techs in the tree and I need only 2800 more points and all that from just 2 days of playing.

I have not landed on any other body then the Mun so there is tons of points left and I still have 4 planets/moons to do flybys off so thats at lest 1200+ points alone I would think probably twice that if I collect it all by going in to low orbit.

So sure you can get bonus for a return trip but well going with probes makes the most sense. Its easy and requires small rockets and once you have the point for the big parts, jumbo tank, mainsail then it makes sense to land and get those points and return.

For example I brought 6 basic canisters of goo to the mun and brought them back. Got 282 points for that but sure it took only 40 minutes or so. Maybe 1h total in building a rocket and getting back to kerbin.

But still returning samples is not that efficient when your fare out. Better save that for last I would say and probe first.

But my tip so fare based on two days off playing is. 3 antennas, two goo pods for symmetry (if you can overcome the unbalance in other ways one could be fine), one 1m science bay, 800 worth of battery charge or more. All the solar panels you can carry, the small once can take a earobreak so thats good if sun is available they will recharge the battery. A mid sized 1m fuel tank and a 909 engine.

This is my best probe so fare in career measured in number of points collected. 4600 in a single trip.

Im a lousy pilot and I dont build rockets a lot so well one could defiantly do better but that probe worked just fine.

it uses a fare bit off more advanced parts but they are not realy needed. Basic antenna will do, basic 909 engine will do, basic solar panels will do.

No a problem to get a pod like that out in the Kerbal solar system with most of the basic 1m parts. Just do some science on the launchpad, on Kerbin in general, do a LKO mission, Lunar flyby etc and you will have unlocked enough to go deeper and get a ton of points.

As a Spaceplane geek I am I tryed to unlock those stuff first but the tech tree dont realy make sense so in retrospect probes seems to require the least effort and give the most gain. So if you want points fast to unlock the tree thats what I would do.

Edited October 18, 2013 by pa1983

[FluxCap]

This is just my second day to play with science, so bear with me...

I was expecting science points to accumulate from one mission to another. I need to get 90 science points, but with my current craft can generate 50. So, was hoping to do two of the same type of missions to get 100, but it seems to reset itself when I recover the craft. E.g., I had 45 points, went into LKO to do some experiments and generated 50 points, and when I come back I only have those 50 points to spend.

I am going to place more science parts on the craft to collect more points to bring back, but was curious if this is the design and intention.

[pa1983]

They have made som realy weird decisions.

If you do a flyby of more then one planet/mun you only get points for the last one when you recover the craft. That do not make sens to me at all. Kerbals have bad memory or something? Same probably goes with landing but not tested. You can only bring back one sample per pod etc etc. So yes you can "lose" collected points if you do the same thing some where else if you do not recover the craft or transmit the data.

Tough returning back and collecting the data you lost is possible. Science points in a zone is not reduced until its received by KSC RnD any way you dont actually lose any points just because you data was overwritten. Thats why there is a delete button for data.

50 points for on craft seems very inefficient. I got 30-40 points just with a pod on the launch pad and some EVA there. Even the simplest craft should be able to do 200 points or so.

The howl system is pretty odd and unbalanced and repetitive if you ask me.

I think people are having a hard time getting a grip on it. But once you know the "rules" its easy to exploit.

Edited October 18, 2013 by pa1983

[Zuni]

Pardon me, but how do you take samples?

^^Noob Alert^^

EDIT: Just figured it out XD

Edited October 18, 2013 by Zuni

[Eric S]

You can only bring back one sample per pod etc etc.

Just to clarify, that's one sample per biome. So you can (and I have) brought back multiple surface samples in a single capsule, you just have to go to more places.

[pa1983]

Only Mun and Kerbin have biomes.

[Sirine]

Contribute some data.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Sirine

[Valley]

Funny thing - I decided to send a couple of goo units into space. One was exposed in the atmosphere during ascent and the other while outside, in space. Did the crew report and EVA (space walk) also. I did not have a stable orbit and splashed down in the ocean. Figured I would take a 'sample' and also, without thinking, did another EVA (dog paddle?) report. Had a hard time trying to get him back into the craft but found out, by accident, he could store the items and data into the pod from the outside. I did not bother with antenna because I had a chute and figured everything would be recovered. When the ship was recovered I was credited with TWO EVA reports. So different EVAs in different conditions can be recorded and stacked?

[Ryder]

So far, science is REALLY annoying. I can tell sometimes what science I performed, as I performed it... but I can't tell what I got credit for it. There never seems to be enough power to transmit the science... so I end up having to stop the transmission.

I took goo around the moon and observed it, but once back on Kerbin, I got no credit for either... for some reason, the goo pods had closed, and I think I lost the data (maybe when the transmission power failed?

#1, it should take MUCH MUCH MUCH less power to send data. I have attempted at least 20 sends from 10 missions, and about two have been successfully sent. This is ridiculous. Please fix.

#2, you should NOT lose observations. If you recover, everything you observed should be returned. Every sample taken, returned.

#3, you should know ANY time, with very clear warnings, whenever you are trying something that will cause one to lose science... and ALWAYS have the option to not do it.

This losing science is frustrating beyond belief. Maddening.

I work the hell out of science, and get only 10 points here or there, 30 points around the Mun only to not have it when I get home.

Squad... Some basic science rules... please! How do you keep from losing science!!!????

[jztemple]

I just realized something very useful. You can use the Observe Materials Bay (The Science Junior stage) over and over again. I hadn't even considered that. I'm orbiting Minmus and since thankfully I have solar cells I can keep making observations and sending data over and over again, although each time the value is less and less. Still, I hadn't even thought to check this. Cool.