"There is no science to be done in sandbox mode"

[SteevyT]

This is still about the science text, not the tech tree. We just want to see the experiment result, not science points or tech tree, in the sandbox mode. It's about immersion as someone said.

I know, that is why I think there should be a generic text in sandbox. And then if feasible, experiments done in sandbox should produce a random science result that doesn't correspond with the values in career so that people can use energy in sandbox to beam data around.

[paleorob]

I know, that is why I think there should be a generic text in sandbox. And then if feasible, experiments done in sandbox should produce a random science result that doesn't correspond with the values in career so that people can use energy in sandbox to beam data around.

I think this is a good solution.

[Guest]

And all the science descriptions are probably in another editable text file and you can just dig around the game files and find them... Isn't that basically the same as using OP parts to progress in the campaign? My point was that those funny little texts should be considered as a reward for something you did while under the constraints of the campaign mode.

There are no constraints in career mode, you said it yourself.

[nismobg]

What happens when you unlock the tree.... It turns into a sandbox i would guess. I would guess that you can finish the tree without even leaving Kerbin SOI too. So you get my point? Sience is just a kind of prolonged game tutorial right now without the rest (resources, money, etc)

[Guest]

But we'll see. KSP's pretty hard already, and will be even more so once things like re-entry heating are in. So I hope they go easy on the economic side, so it's more interesting, than challenging.

I don't think money will be the limiting factor some people seem to think it will be. I listened to Manley's interview of Felipe last night and Felipe's thoughts on game design in KSP are pretty revealing. I doubt we'll see any sort of perceived grind in KSP. What I do think we'll eventually end up with are "hard mode" mods or options, like a science multiplier setting (I'm hoping there's a global setting in the persistence file, or some way to use ModuleManager to make science more meaningful).

If Scott Manley can unlock most of the later techs using a fairly simple rocket just by landing on Minmus, most of the experienced KSP userbase will see the tech tree as nothing more than a minor bump in the road, even with money being used to buy parts.

[whistlehead]

I'm liking the idea of simply having a cumulative total amount of science in sandbox mode. Being unable to do science in the sandbox does seem a little immersion-breaking.

You could even have a sandbox science leaderboard... Maybe comparing all-time, monthly, weekly and daily amounts of science collected. Now THAT would ignite some competitive spirits!

[FITorion]

I'm liking the idea of simply having a cumulative total amount of science in sandbox mode. Being unable to do science in the sandbox does seem a little immersion-breaking.

You could even have a sandbox science leaderboard... Maybe comparing all-time, monthly, weekly and daily amounts of science collected. Now THAT would ignite some competitive spirits!

Science has diminishing returns. Do the same thing in the same place and eventually you'll get 0 science points for it. This means there is a finite amount of science points to collect...

also... I bet it's fairly easy to edit your persistence file to have however many science points you want.

My point is science points should not be used as some sort of competitive thing and are not a measure of skill. I don't mind having them in sandbox... My only annoyance would be if community members disparage other peoples sandbox fun based on how little science points they have there. I'm not saying you would do that. But I think it would happen... It's not a big enough concern for me to not want the science points in any case.

[SkyRender]

Actually, now that I think about it, the main reason why they're not adding science to Sandbox mode is most likely because that would break save compatibility...

[Karriz]

Actually, now that I think about it, the main reason why they're not adding science to Sandbox mode is most likely because that would break save compatibility...

Of course I don't know how the game is coded, but since the science reports wouldn't overlap with any of the existing features, I don't see why it would cause problems. You add the science part to the craft, and when you do an experiment, the game randomly chooses a result text based on your current location.

The results wouldn't even have to be saved in sandbox mode, and the science points could be blanked.

[TYRT]

(I havent read any post) I think all parts will be avalible on sandbox mode.

[Commander Zoom]

What I find strange is that people are talking as if this update is going to give us career mode. It's not. We're getting beta 1 of the tech tree, plus further refinements of the changes made to the space center last update and some more tweaks to SAS.

IMO, at this stage, it's still sandbox with science bolted on, and that's exactly how I intend and expect to play it.

Once we get a consistent and working career mode - doesn't have to be polished, but all of the pieces need to be there - then I'll give it a shot. I figure that's still a year out, at least.

[Corw]

(I havent read any post) I think all parts will be avalible on sandbox mode.

Bravo for not reading. That is the way to do it. You completely missed the whole point of the thread.

What I find strange is that people are talking as if this update is going to give us career mode. It's not. We're getting beta 1 of the tech tree, plus further refinements of the changes made to the space center last update and some more tweaks to SAS.

IMO, at this stage, it's still sandbox with science bolted on, and that's exactly how I intend and expect to play it.

Once we get a consistent and working career mode - doesn't have to be polished, but all of the pieces need to be there - then I'll give it a shot. I figure that's still a year out, at least.

If you can select button "Career" when you start a game then it is a career mode. It actually has progress so it is a career even if it is not the final iteration of it.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Corw

[Commander Zoom]

So if I want fluffy flavor text with my science that I'm just doing to have something to do, I'm going to be held hostage to an incomplete and buggy game mode?

... I think maybe I should step out of this thread. I've made my feelings known, and it's taking me places I don't want to go.

[MidwestB]

It sounds like people want career mode without having to unlock all the parts and that seems pretty lame. To me, the sandbox will be a good place to test ship designs that you can use in career and just do the science in career. Not being able to see little messages in one game mode when you can see them in another really are not anything to get worked up about.

[Guest]

It sounds like people want career mode without having to unlock all the parts and that seems pretty lame.

You can unlock all the nodes within three decent flights, apparently (and if Manley's video was any indication you don't even need a massive rocket, just a few trips around Kerbin's moons), and HarvesteR is against "grindy" gameplay, so I don't see how it is "lame" to want flavor text.

[Karriz]

It sounds like people want career mode without having to unlock all the parts and that seems pretty lame. To me, the sandbox will be a good place to test ship designs that you can use in career and just do the science in career. Not being able to see little messages in one game mode when you can see them in another really are not anything to get worked up about.

But the question is, why shouldn't there be science messages in sandbox? Is there any reason for such a seemingly artificial limitation?

Many people like to use sandbox mode for roleplaying purposes, and having those little messages would certainly be neat, and wouldn't hurt anyone.

[LameLefty]

But the question is, why shouldn't there be science messages in sandbox? Is there any reason for such a seemingly artificial limitation?

Many people like to use sandbox mode for roleplaying purposes, and having those little messages would certainly be neat, and wouldn't hurt anyone.

Bingo. These are my personal feelings, exactly.

[Psycix]

I completely agree: What is a sandbox if it doesn't allow you to do everything?

The very definition of sandbox is that you are free to do what you want, having access to unlimited of everything, including possibilities. If career has a feature which sandbox doesn't, is it really sandbox?

Everybody should be able to play the game as they want, and choosing to do science in sandbox is something a lot of players will want to do.

On top of that, career mode is more of an introduction to the game for new players rather than a hard challenge for experienced kerbalnauts like us.

"exploring science and the tech tree outside of career mode" is something that makes little difference to experienced Kerbalnauts.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I completely agree: What is a sandbox if it doesn't allow you to do everything?

The very definition of sandbox is that you are free to do what you want, having access to unlimited of everything, including possibilities. If career has a feature which sandbox doesn't, is it really sandbox?

If sandbox has all the features of the career, including story and cutscenes, is it really sandbox? The tech progression and science reports are part of career, as will be part and crew purchasing. Having them in sandbox is superfluous. You are free to do what you want, not limited by anything. But it is customary for games that feature both a challenge/career/story and a sandbox mode to have extra rewards for progressing outside of the sandbox. In playing sandbox, you already have access to everything and can do anything, including science. But those little science reports are the extra rewards for people who take the challenge of career mode, with its research tree and upcoming part budgets and things. It doesn't make sense that people who take the more challenging route up are not, even if in a silly and gameplay-irrelevant way, rewarded for it.

[Clouds]

To me, the sandbox will be a good place to test ship designs that you can use in career and just do the science in career.

But how do you propose to test science ships if you don't get to see how much science they collect, while flying the test mission in Sandbox mode?

[Botch]

not sure if anyone has said it yet, but given there are X number of instruments and X number of contexts you can use them in, a running tally of your progress on that combined list would be a fun thing to do in sandbox. I think the current system tells you if you've made a given observation before. That would be a good start to the Kerbal version of "gotta catch em all" (use every instrument in every context) and a valid, to me, argument for including the science results in sandbox.

This would make big research vessels a thing.

[Merinsan]

If you can select button "Career" when you start a game then it is a career mode. It actually has progress so it is a career even if it is not the final iteration of it.

Calling the 0.22 update "Career mode", is like calling a job at McDonalds a career. Sure, technically you could, but no one in their right mind considers flipping burgers a career. It is essentially sandbox mode, with a few restrictions for a couple of flights.

Once Career Mode is finished, there should be things that only exist only in Career mode, for obvious reasons, such as missions and maybe a story line. It shouldn't be some artificial limitation like you can't use a piece of equipment because you are in sandbox mode - which would mean it by definition isn't sandbox.

If there is a technical reason for not providing science in sandbox (ie save breaking), then I am all for the current implementation, but I'd expect it to eventually be fixed. If there is no technical reason then I think it is ridiculous to implement this way. It may even be a case of getting it into experimentals, while they fix the science messages in sandbox, so this entire discussion may even be pointless...

[AmpsterMan]

I think of Career and Sandbox mode as synonymous to Survival and Creative modes in Minecraft.

Sandbox mode should have all of the features, parts, etc. With unlimited resources (credits, all science unlocked, NOT unlimited fuel) all planets unlocked, and cheats enabled including a hyperedit like feature for ships.

[PwnedDuck]

I think of Career and Sandbox mode as synonymous to Survival and Creative modes in Minecraft.

Sandbox mode should have all of the features, parts, etc. With unlimited resources (credits, all science unlocked, NOT unlimited fuel) all planets unlocked, and cheats enabled including a hyperedit like feature for ships.

Nope. The fun of KSP is just as much in designing the missions to undertake these awesome things, with every realistic resource available to you. Some of us just maybe don't want to jump through hoops to unlock and afford our ideal missions, and simultaneously not have said missions amount to cheating our way around the system.

Seems to me that Sandbox is survival, and Career is hardcore mode. Hyperediting and such amounts better to creative.

[Dweller_Benthos]

Interesting thread. I haven't watched too many videos about career mode, so, just taking what I've read in this thread, here's my two cents.

I agree that the message you get in sandbox about science seems a bit... heavy handed, as if they are saying "You're lame, playing sandbox, too bad". There should be some kind of message other than, "You can't do that, you just put a useless hunk of dead weight on your rocket, haha, joke's on you".

It should give you at least some recognition for the feat, but I also don't think it should be the exact same result you'd get in career. Some kind of funny message, such as "Science module found some dust", or "Science module reports that the sun does rise here". I don't know, maybe those are the kind of messages you get in career mode? I'm kind of trying to stay away from spoilers on that front. I'm not crazy about the science points adding up in sandbox either, unless they are completely off the wall and not at all related to the points you'd get in career.

For those saying they want to use sandbox as a simulator, this could work the same way, you'd know your ship works, and gets your science module to the planet/orbit you want to get to, and you'd get an acknowledgement of that fact, but you still wouldn't know exactly what you'd get until you do it for real in career. Using sandbox to find the "sweet spot" for getting the most science points in one mission seems a bit cheaty in my book. Knowing you can get a module to the exact spot where you get the most return ahead of time seems to make the whole point of career mode, well, pointless. Sure, IRL space agencies do tons of simulations, but they are just that, simulations. They know about what's going to happen, as mentioned before, but not the exact results. Now, if career mode opens up more in later versions of the game, where sending an orbiter to a planet first to find the best spots for ground based stations or rovers to land, that would be just great.

It would even be better if sandbox and career mode had different science results, so no matter how much you do in sandbox, you'd not get the same results as doing it in career.