The Grand 0.22 Discussion Thread

[Quickfire]

I have tested the 0.22 version, and I am pleased to say that it works really well. The research interface works quite nicely, and it is an excellent educational feature, forcing n00bs and even more experienced players to learn to use every single part to its maximum capacity/efficiency

on top of this, it prevents mods such as mechjeb being used, making it a good learning experience/challenge.

Have Fun!

[TerrificToby]

When does mechjeb come into the tech tree - i suck at redezvous...

[FluxCap]

Also, it would be nice if future tech was not grayed out and could be clicked on to plan a progression toward, e.g., nuclear engines.

[Superfluous J]

Also, it would be nice if future tech was not grayed out and could be clicked on to plan a progression toward, e.g., nuclear engines.

This is pretty standard in games like these. You can't see further up the tree because your scientists simply haven't thought up nuclear engines yet. In a well designed tree (and I can't speak on this one as I've not studied it very closely so I can enjoy unlocking it more) you should be able to guess at least a little how to get there.

[CobraA1]

My initial thoughts:

-Awesome job! This really adds a lot to the game, and AFAIK it's the first patch that didn't have any major game-breaking bugs in it.

-The math seems wrong in a few places. For example, "throughput" seems to be wrong - I think they multiplied when they meant to divide. The bigger antennas should have higher throughput, not lower.

-Not sure I like having a penalty (sometimes pretty big) for transmitting the science data rather than recovering the craft. There's already diminishing returns for repeating the experiment in the same place. This means that any time you transmit the data rather than recover it, you are losing some science forever.

-I love the new kcience, erm science system . Combining doing research with a tech tree is a great way to do it. I'd say this is the biggest improvement since docking.

Overall, a big step forward . I look forward to seeing what this brings in the future, both for stock and for mods.

[Goatgas]

Do mods work in career mode ? cant seem to get mechjeb parts to load.

(only mod tried so far).

[Godot]

They do if you add 2 lines into the part.cfg of each modded part, that determine where on the tech tree it is located and the associated costs with the part

[Goatgas]

Bummer.. wouldn't even now where or how to do that.

[Nemoricus]

My initial thoughts:

-Not sure I like having a penalty (sometimes pretty big) for transmitting the science data rather than recovering the craft. There's already diminishing returns for repeating the experiment in the same place. This means that any time you transmit the data rather than recover it, you are losing some science forever.

It's not lost forever. As discussed elsewhere on the forums, repeated transmissions give you the same total science as repeated returns. It just takes more transmissions to hit that total.

[MickG]

Do mods work in career mode ? cant seem to get mechjeb parts to load.

(only mod tried so far).

Use this mod to add Mechjeb to all capsules. Works in careermode as well: http://www.kerbalspaceprogram.com/mechjeb-and-remotetech-for-all/

[GeneralDisorder]

I don't really understand the fuss some people are making about career mode being too easy or broken or that stuff isn't in the right place in the tree...

Maybe I play things 'the way they were meant to be played', but I've been having a nice progression, with parts unlocking at the 'right' time (at least to my feeling).

I do prefer manned missions over transmitting over and over again. I'll send out a few crew reports occasionally, but in my opinion, sending a probe somewhere and just transmitting until you've squeezed all science from a spot is a dumb way to play the game.

I'll leave planes and rovers out of the discussion for now seeing as the game is mainly a 'rocket-to-another-moon-or-planet' simulator.

Don't get me wrong. I love planes and have built my share of planes, vtols, staged spaceplanes and sstos, but my main focus is on getting to planets and moons with rockets...

My progression so far:

- Suborbital flight

- Orbital flight

- Mun landing (forgot to take samples!)

- Minmus landing x2

- another Mun landing to get those samples

- A combined Duna + Ike mission (2 ships, 3 crew total, Bill visited Duna while Jeb and Bob landed on Ike)

Planning, building and flying took me a nice amount of pleasant game time and I'm now at the point where every tech upgrade costs about 500 science.

I am now planning a Laythe mission, where I want to get at least two Kerbals to set foot on the surface and live to tell the tale back in the KSC pilot lounge.

Contrary to some, I've been rejoicing in the loss of Mechjeb. While it may be a bit annoying not to see your stage dV stats, the fact that you have to rely only on your own skills to do it all is such a reward on its own. And grabbing a piece of paper and a pencil and doing some really basic calculations can get you a long, long way. Rendezvous does take some more time without MJ, but I'm willing to put up with that. Training is good. MJ is fine in sandbox, when you are shooting up rocket after rocket to finish that humongous, 10 module space station you're building, but I highly recommend playing career without.

So while I'm an experienced player, I haven't finished the tech tree yet (though I have pretty much everything I need) and that's a good thing. There's no prizes for being first anyway ;-)

Keep it up Squad!

Edited October 21, 2013 by GeneralDisorder

[BJ Quest]

Good Morning All,

I have tried the .22 version of KSP career mode. Interesting (In the good sense). Went through 3 levels of science exploring what can be done and restarted once, reaching level 4-5+ level of science so far. Launching, orbiting and flybys of the Mun and Minmus are no problem. Landing on Mun and Minmus almost no problem (crash of 1 type of lander needed to judge decent rate). This is quite an improvement. Up to ~85% from 50%. http://i.imgur.com/TatNoXm.png

Understanding how to locate Bio-domes is fuzzy (and keeping track of where one has been). Are there maps accessible and if so how?

Hopping around the Mun (3 times) and then back gave me 300+ science points in one trip. I did that again later. [960+ on a later trip/game]

Understanding when to collect/transmit science/date would be useful. something I guess I will have to discover along with developing a KSP research methodology.

BJ Quest

PS: A very good evolution of the game/program :-)

Probe for exploration of science - http://i.imgur.com/MsJXc4c.png

Landing of the probe - http://i.imgur.com/0ytop5t.png

Obtained lots of data/science point by going to Duna, Eve, and Joel. Crashed on Duna and missed orbit/decent to Joel (miss manged fuel). Got 2184 science points on one probe trip. That open up a lot of technology.

Edited October 26, 2013 by BJ Quest
Added Probe images

[Raticon]

Tried the 0.22 today after a week away, and i am finding the science aspect very much to my liking! It's a great addition and restarted my interest in the game in a way.

I am however struggling with the science-aspect in certain ways, as i have yet to figure out how to best use the scientific parts to their max. Still, that's pilot ineptitude, not the games fault .

[Lord_Demon]

Have played with 0.22 in the career mode a bit for now. I have to say I think it is a great addition to game, and while it is far from perfect, it is a good direction. It does give us something to do. I hope further career mode developments are coming soon: The open sandbox is nice, but having some goals gives you something to do.

For 0.22 feedback (in no particular order):

-I'm not a big fan with the how the SAS works now. However, it did give me an idea: Would it make sense to have two modes? The initial and simple SAS modules could work like the current, overshooting and wobbling a bit when turning. Advanced SAS and high end capsules would have a more smooth handling and no overshooting.

-The science has it's quirks, and some aid is needed. A visible page in Science lab showing what you have researched would be nice. Have it only show biomes/experiments player has already completed. Maybe have them split by planet, biome, and experiment type.

-Space center could also have a single hint from the scientists to give new players some help on what to research. For example, "Our scientists wonder if you could do some measurements near the poles of Kerbin", "do you think there is anythign scienfitically interesting in Mun?" or "we made a bet on weather things look different outside the capsule then the inside. Could you check this?" to point players to areas and experiments they have missed.

-The transmitting/returning samples needs more work. Once you unlock solar panels, you can mine all the data by simply repeatedly sending the report until sending no longer yields research. At that point, there is only fractions left anyway, so it is worthless. Maybe have each experiment split to two parts, return and transmit. Any data loss and data earned via transmit only effects the transmit part. Return should effect both.

This way you could repeatedly transmit the data, but only get the transmit % of the original (20%, 40%, 50% depending on the report). At some point, even if you transmit data you gain nothing, but still have the return part untouched, and would get that when you repeatedly return the experiment data.

-Maybe adding sample bins, databases etc. parts to store more reports/data would be handy. Databases could require constant power or lose data, sample bins just add mass. And automated parts that enable probes to take soil samples.

Well, my 2 cents. Might add more when I get more time. In any case, a great addition. Can't wait to finish the tech trees.

[numerobis]

The 48-7S was already overpowered, now it's crazy-OP. Might need to balance it a bit.

For career mode, it's FUN! But only for a short while. As soon as I had solar panels and the 48-7S I could build a probe with stupid amounts of delta-V and just tootle around the solar system grinding science. At that point, I was back to sandbox mode.

[Geckgo]

Well, I don't mean to flame anything or repeat stuff that's already been said, but I've finally gotten to a descent spot on a vanilla career-mode game and figured I would post my thoughts so far on .22 and where KSP seems to be heading in general. Hopefully provide my insights to the devs. The following are just my opinions and not intended as a response to anyone else's post or anything, just thought it would be helpful.

I've unlocked all of the Tier 4 stuff and some 5's and 6's and I have my guys poised to go beyond Minmus and (yet again) start exploring the galaxy, just to note where I am.

So far, the career mode structure hasn't bothered me much, other than the fact that we've got 2 new models on this version. I'm really hoping that the devs will spend some time in a nearby update at getting more parts and pieces, especially now that they come in bit-sized chunks, there is no longer the need to restrict the number of parts based on new players needing to sift through a million options, so I don't think any harm would be done in exploiting this feature as an excuse to add a bunch of rocket parts with the next version. Adding KSPX was nice and much needed, but the community, as far as I can tell, wants more parts. Specially stuff to make our space planes look/fly better.

I noticed that I'm not just collecting science points when I go into space, but also these data things that seem to have no use other than being there. I'm looking forward to finding out what Squad's intentions are toward these points and how they will fit into the grand structure of things, but science has become dull rather quickly. This is a shame, but pretty much what I was expecting from reading KSP weekly and watching the pre-release videos. It would be nice for different experiments to collect different types of data as a minimum, and maybe some option to upgrade parts with research. Perhaps instead of just having science, have different data that could be collected and downloaded at ksp, and then the KSP scientists could work through that data to produce things naturally, like upgrading engine parts and so forth, and you could manage your team. In my dreams, perhaps a system similar to the old x-com games, that would be awesome. Each part could have a mk1, mk2, etc list (same model, upgraded stats) and the descriptions can go from "found on the side of the road" to "by adding a few parts from the hardware store" to "materials analysis led us to", etc. Just some thoughts.

The sub-assembly manager is nice, but like the mod, I find it severely lacking and limiting. The prime reason is that I can only store "tails". IOW, I can build a sweet probe and rocket, and store the rocket as a sub-assembly, but storing the probe itself becomes rather annoying and finicky. This is most likely because of the way that ships are read/stored to the SPH files? I don't know how it's coded, but if it's an array of enum data, for instance, just adding a couple new sort algorithms might solve the problem? I don't know, it's just an annoyance, but one I've learned to live with. (and why I stopped using subassm manager in the first place).

Until now I've given vanilla a good run and it's much better than the others before it, but I just feel that this game could be so much more and I hope once all this infrastructure is implemented, SQUAD will be able to start filling it out with a lot of content. The resources which are already in the game is a sound setup for adding more down the line, as proven with Kethane, TAC, and other resource mods. The science, I'm afraid doesn't look as good from a meta viewpoint, and seems to be locked to the parts tree, which will probably not cater to some of my listed suggestions, but I could be wrong.

As a last point. A system similar to flight engineer would be really helpful. All them guys in lab coats running around my VAB are starting to annoy me because I still have to do the delta-v calculations by hand while making my rockets without flight engineer. If Squad really wants to cater to the "larger audience," some kind of helpful advice from the lab-coat kerbals would be nice and IMHO, they should make a native engineering system for the game. Either that or change the scenery to some kid's backyard. Just my thoughts.

Hopefully I haven't been offensive with any of this, and I know some things here have been discussed, these are just my thoughts.

[Nemoricus]

So far, the career mode structure hasn't bothered me much, other than the fact that we've got 2 new models on this version. I'm really hoping that the devs will spend some time in a nearby update at getting more parts and pieces, especially now that they come in bit-sized chunks, there is no longer the need to restrict the number of parts based on new players needing to sift through a million options, so I don't think any harm would be done in exploiting this feature as an excuse to add a bunch of rocket parts with the next version. Adding KSPX was nice and much needed, but the community, as far as I can tell, wants more parts. Specially stuff to make our space planes look/fly better.

Good points and suggestions overall, but I'm going to comment on this one in particular. The more parts the game gets, the more cluttered the VAB gets, especially as you work your way through the tech tree. Since this clutter makes it more difficult to find the parts you want to use, Squad should think about redesigning how the parts are sorted in the VAB before they add more.

If nothing else, a "Favorite Parts" tab would be extremely helpful.

[Geckgo]

Good point. I have found however that adding parts only really bothers me at times like when I first install a mod. After using it to build a couple rockets, having 5 pages for each tab doesn't really bother me because I have a feel for the ordering.

I really only had my first discouraging moment with .22 yesterday when I launched a wonderful little mission with three ships landing within 100m of eachother on minmus only to find out that the science from the second two was pretty much worthless That got me thinking that it was time to put my mods back on and do my own thing again, but I'll get my probes launched before I ditch vanilla .22 completely.

[pa1983]

Part clutter could to some extent be solved if one could sort parts once self. I build spaceplanes but I still do use the same engines etc. Would be nice if I could make a tab with my favourite parts. Also I find my self switching between two different parts very often. Some tab or something for the last few used parts and maybe even a key to toggle trough them. Would reduce the frustration of clicking back and forth.

Rockets have decent amount of parts, I do wish there was like a cluster of 4x NV-1 in a 2.5m part with proper fairings.

But considering how few parts spaceplanes have building rockets is super easy from a part perspective and spaceplanes requires a lot of time just trying to do more with less making it pretty boring right now.

Longer landing gears often come up, payload bays and hinges to do your own etc. Some more wing peaces to opt from or some way of setting the size they should have at least.

[briansun1]

one thing would make it a lot better... a search function.

[GusTurbo]

One thing a lot of people dislike is starting with manned craft. I think one way of making things more realistic would be to have "dumb" payloads. Basically, you would have an unmanned part like a probe, but it would provide no control authority. So a hypothetical first rocket might consist of a small SRB, a dummy payload, basic sensors (thermometer, accelerometer, barometer), and a parachute to recover the sensors. This way, you could collect science and not endanger Kerbals.

[Traches]

Would it really be kerbal if you started with anything BUT a manned craft? Jeb laughing his *** off while riding a barely controlled explosion? Unmanned tests are for wimps and humans.

[Mr. Scruffy]

Parts clutter: Could be prevented, if you´d not only research the fields, but also the individual parts that get unlocked by them. For example, there´s two versions of the two medium solar panels (1x6, 2x3, each with ´coating´ and without). I can well imagine that most players have their favorite among those four and could do without the other three. Well, then, let´s have players have to unlock individual parts (after their corresponding field) and those players would only find one of the four panels in their list, if they so choose. This would also neatly tie-in with part-upgrades, if such a thing is planned or considered.

BTW, the space center looks awesome and all that, but none-the-less, it would be nice if each ´station´ of it featured a drop-downmenu to directly jump to another (e.g. going from VAB directly to R&D). If screen-estate is an issue, have this menu open by right-clicking the ´exit´-button.

[KeyLord]

I'd like to see the terrestrial science rewards get raised a bit... or at least get a bunch of science for flying around in the atmosphere in a normal jet.

I enjoy going to other planets, but I also enjoy just making a nice plane and flying around in it, seeing what there is to see out there.

I love the science system, but I do think it could use a little bit of a rework.

[Rage097]

So far I'm loving the update. Although I've been slapping science bits on everything possible. The science system could use some tweaking, perhaps More flavor text~