Science Question: When/How do diminished returns kick in with radio transmissions?

[Creat]

Hello everyone!

As most I'm currently enjoying the new career mode (like most people here I guess), and I've got a question about science results. I know that I get diminished returns when I repeat an experiment, like "Goo in space high above Kerbin". That's obviously great or many people might just run around KSC collecting samples repeatedly. We also have much reduced science gain from transmissions of anything that is not a crew report, which also makes sense.

Now for the question: Will doing an experiment for the first time and transmitting the result (Goo or Science Jr., for example) take up the "good slot" that gives 100%? When I then get a flight together that can return, will I get a much diminished return, basically about as useful as the first one that I transmitted? Or is transmitting a result treated differently than bringing it back, which would kind of make sense?

Example time!

I don't know by how much exactly the science gets diminished from the first to the second time, but I think I saw a 0.4 (instead of 1.0) as a multiplier somewhere, though it might be 0.7 or something.

Let's say I'm in high orbit around Kerbin, doing some Goo. I think it gives 10 Science, and in any case let's just assume it does. Transmitting it would be 40%, so I get 4 from transmitting that.

(Could be I don't have any parachutes to return the craft with the goo, but just the capsule or something, just stay with me...)

Now I go again to "High orbit around Kerbin" (with enough parachutes this time), open the goo and keep it. According to the guessed diminished returns multiplier from above (.4) I get 4 science again.

Now I got a total of 8, even though I brought it back the second time. If I had brought it back the first time, I'd gotten the full 10. If this really is the case it makes doing "exploratory missions" (unmanned probes) first basically impossible (or at least not worth it) unless I also bring them back. Like having a probe that does a gravity assist at the Mun to fly by Minmus and goes on to visit Duna (or something). This would really be kind of sad, especially since the rather bulky/heavy "Science Jr." only give 20% when sent via radio, so

Has anyone tried this yet? I don't wanna screw up my save, but if nobody knows I might do a backup and try it for myself. I just hope the knowledge is already out there

Edited October 17, 2013 by Creat

[Superfluous J]

I was going to test on this tonight for myself with a fresh save. Should be easy to test for with some goo on the launch pad, and a notepad to jot down what you "should" get versus what you actually get.

[Grays]

Confirmed that the experiments are zero-sum. There is no "best slot". I was planning an experiment similar to yours in orbit, but opted for yours because it was just easier.

(Observing goo while on the launch pad)

Round 1:

Recover: 3.0

Transmit: 0.5

Recover: 1.0

Total: 4.5

Round 2:

Transmit: 1.2

Recover: 2.3

Recover: 1.0

Total: 4.5

Thus, it doesn't matter what order you do the experiments in.

[Creat]

That is some AWESOME news, and thanks for testing it!

To be honest I should've known they would come up with a great solution like this. This makes me seriously happy

[Wheffle]

I was worried about this also... worried that I was losing potential Science by sending a probe to the Mun first and transmitting a few experiments instead of sending a crew. I'm glad to see that it appears to have been balanced well.

EDIT:

Although, since you can perform an experiment and transmit it multiple times in one mission, even with the transmission penalty and diminishing returns, wouldn't you eventually be able to reap more science than recovering it? Is it worth recovering an experiment that you've transmitted a ton of times already? I guess I'm still confused as to when you'd want to transmit vs when you'd want to go for the recovery.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Wheffle

[Merinsan]

I was worried about this also... worried that I was losing potential Science by sending a probe to the Mun first and transmitting a few experiments instead of sending a crew. I'm glad to see that it appears to have been balanced well.

EDIT:

Although, since you can perform an experiment and transmit it multiple times in one mission, even with the transmission penalty and diminishing returns, wouldn't you eventually be able to reap more science than recovering it? Is it worth recovering an experiment that you've transmitted a ton of times already? I guess I'm still confused as to when you'd want to transmit vs when you'd want to go for the recovery.

I just tested this. I did continuous transmissions versus continuous recoveries, and it comes out the same, so you could transmit continuously for the same result, which in my opinion is an exploit.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Merinsan

[Wheffle]

I just tested this. I did continuous transmissions versus continuous recoveries, and it comes out the same, so you could transmit continuously for the same result, which in my opinion is an exploit.

Thanks for testing that. Good to know.

Yeah, I think at least the first recovery should give some sort of boost. That way you'd have a reason to work towards a successful return mission even if you'd transmitted the crap out of all the experiments already. I guess the science gained from the vessel itself after it has been places cannot be transmitted. Can soil sample experiments be transmitted at all? I haven't done any off-Kerbin soil sampling yet.

[Merinsan]

Thanks for testing that. Good to know.

Yeah, I think at least the first recovery should give some sort of boost. That way you'd have a reason to work towards a successful return mission even if you'd transmitted the crap out of all the experiments already. I guess the science gained from the vessel itself after it has been places cannot be transmitted. Can soil sample experiments be transmitted at all? I haven't done any off-Kerbin soil sampling yet.

Soil samples can be transmitted. You get about 20% for them.

I've already done one from Minmus and the Mun. In fact, I did 3 from the Mun in one shot. I'm not sure what that does for you - 3 soil samples worth say 50 points returned on one ship. I didn't check the breakdown, but I ended up with 600+ points from the 1 trip (6 goo containers, 3 labs, 3 soil samples, 3 eva reports, and eva report and "soil" sample from splashdown). On top of that I kept transmitting crew reports while doing the mission.

Sadly, the amount of science I need is growing exponentially! At least I have my nukes now! Next mission is Duna!

[magnemoe]

Ok so it look like we can just as well transmit if we have power.

This makes missions far easier, not only do we not have to bring multiple species containers and labs but we also don't have to bring them back.

Might be worthwhile to do an Eve flyby, bring some probes with a lab and species container and drop one on land and one in water.

[Creat]

OK I've also did a test run on a fresh save. I took Goo to LKO, an experiment that gives 10 science on the first try (making for nice math) and has 40% transmission efficiency. Note that for example Science Jr. will be "twice as bad" with 20%, so take all these numbers with a grain of salt!

I've run the Goo with different numbers of transmissions first, then recovering some, as that was the scenario I was asking about. [numbers in brackets indicate science from transmission]

When you only transmit (four times), you get the following science: [4.0] + [3.1] + [2.4] + [1.5] = 11

As you can see, that's already more than a single recovery would get you (10).

But if you only do recoveries, you get: 10 + 4.4 + 2 + 0.9 = 17.5

This is obviously more, so recovering IS worth it. Even the first two are already noticeably more than all four transmissions. As a note: recovering one goo after the 4th transmission would give you another 3.2, making it basically even with two pure recoveries.

If you only transmit the first one, you get: [4] + 7.8 + 3.5 + 1.5 = 16.8

Transmitting the first two gives you: [4] + [3.1] + 6 + 2.7 = 15.8

This also shows that transmitting at first is a reasonable idea, but only transmitting or transmitting repeatedly isn't. If you transmit once or twice that seems OK though, maybe even beneficial: It might make sense to transmit the first data point even when you know you're gonna recover the craft (and you have the power!) since those first two are a noticeable boost over only recovering. Think of it as giving the scientists at home a head start or something

Lastly, let's look at the most likely scenario (for me at least), the situation I've asked the question for: Is it worth it transmitting a first result before recovering the same experiment (be it from the same or a different craft). Basically doing an unmanned fly-by with a satellite before you send a manned mission that will return.

For this we look at the data only up until the first recovery.

Recovery only: 10 (14.4 for two recoveries, just for reference)

1x transmit + recovery: 11.8

2x transmit + recovery: 13.1

4x transmit + recovery: 14,2

CONCLUSION TIME! Unfortunately I'm missing a data point there, but it still seems to all be worth it as long as you do return a sample in the end. You will reduce your maximum (reasonably) possible science gain from a single experiment though, so if it is something that you're likely to do often (like flying high/low over Kerbin) you should not transmit, you'll bring it back eventually - unless you need that science now for a very specific unlock or something.

Keep in mind that the mission that finally returns will still have a lower science yield than a first-discovery mission would. The rest was just already transmitted. But you kinda lose the "wow look at all that SCIENCE" effect when returning from a successful mission.

[nholzric]

Here's a related question: I landed on the Mun with 3 Goo containers and as far as I could tell they each gave me the same amount of science (30 each?). I did not transmit, I returned them and from what I remember I got the full 30 science from each container for a total of 90. Does this mean it's better to do tons of experiments and then return them all at once so that each one gets maximum value?

I could have misread the science report or be remembering wrong. This seemed like a relevant twist to the original question if someone wants to try to replicate my results.

[TheBeardyMan]

Here's a related question: I landed on the Mun with 3 Goo containers and as far as I could tell they each gave me the same amount of science (30 each?). I did not transmit, I returned them and from what I remember I got the full 30 science from each container for a total of 90. Does this mean it's better to do tons of experiments and then return them all at once so that each one gets maximum value?

I could have misread the science report or be remembering wrong. This seemed like a relevant twist to the original question if someone wants to try to replicate my results.

If those observations are correct, they would indicate that the diminishing returns effect is only applied after all science from a transaction (either a transmission or a recovery) has been "banked". Stacking science in that way will probably be considered an exploit.

[SanderB]

Based on the observations I've made so far the goo reports from Kerbin upper atmosphere have a diminishing returns of about 1/2 for every report that is 100% recovered. The formula that logically follows after a process of a little arithmatic transmutation is as follows.

% = 1-(1/2)^n

% is the % of the science that you can get from a specific sub-set of science reports (ex. Upper Atmospheric Goo Reports.)

n is the number of times that you recover that science report (and thus gain 100% of the science from that report)

If you use transmission with 20% efficiency instead the formula is only a little different as follows:

% = 1-(9/10)^n

My following conclusions for sub-type (ex. upper atmospheric goo) reports that yield 1/2 of the science at 100% recovery are as follows.

Returning (via recovery) a science report 3 times yields 87.5% of the total science of that scientific sub-type. (This can be achieved by for example exposing 3 goo containers to the same atmosphere and recovering them from the same vessel.)

For reports transmitted at 20% efficiency (thus yielding only 1/10) need be transmitted 22 times to get at least 90% of the science and 43 times to get 99%.

For reports transmitted at 40% (Thus yielding 1/5 of the total per report) need be transmitted 10 times to yield about 90% and 20 times for 99% (and 30 for 99.9%, and so on).

Science reports seem to behave like this inside the kerbin system. Soil Samples from the launch pad seem to have a rate of diminishing returns at 3/4.

Thus it follows that given the opportunity it is better to send a report via transmission the appropiate number of times unless transmission is not possible for the specific type of scientific report. (ex: recovery of vehicle from minmus)

Further scientific investigation will be committed shortly.

Edited October 17, 2013 by SanderB
spelling error

[VirtualCLD]

One thing I'm not sure of, is there a limit of four times when running an experiment? Do you stop collecting any useful data out of that?

Let's say I perform an experiment, such as Mystery Goo observation in high Kerbin Orbit and transmit the data back for a reduced science value. Can I make up the difference by performing the experiment again and recovering the vessel? Can I transmit the results 12 time and recover the data 4 times and end up with the same total science?

[Merinsan]

I've been to Duna and Eve, sciencing all over the place last night (about 3.5k science on both trips!). Some things I discovered.

1. Transmitting something to death does seem to give less than returning the samples (I recant my previous post!). I was testing gravity with the gravoli detector in interstellar space. From memory it was worth 440 science, yet I didn't get that after all the transmissions. From memory again the transmission was only 20%.

2. I think multiple samples don't give the same amount. My ship going to Duna and Eve was dubbed "Science Vessel Mk 1" (I'm bad at naming ships), which had 16 science labs and 20 goo containers. Every place I could take a reading I took multiple readings for return. I think the list displays the multiple items separately, and each one has a diminished amount. I think. I was pretty tired when I started noticing this.

[nholzric]

2. I think multiple samples don't give the same amount. My ship going to Duna and Eve was dubbed "Science Vessel Mk 1" (I'm bad at naming ships), which had 16 science labs and 20 goo containers. Every place I could take a reading I took multiple readings for return. I think the list displays the multiple items separately, and each one has a diminished amount. I think. I was pretty tired when I started noticing this.

You and I make a nice team posting vaguely remembered details which may either prove or disprove a theory. I am certain each goo reported the same value when activated on the Mun. The discounts would have had to take place afterwards when I recovered the samples, but I remember them being a single line. Maybe someone will rescue us with a better documented experiment, unfortunately I doubt I'll be able to play again for a day or so.

[Creat]

Here's a related question: I landed on the Mun with 3 Goo containers and as far as I could tell they each gave me the same amount of science (30 each?). I did not transmit, I returned them and from what I remember I got the full 30 science from each container for a total of 90. Does this mean it's better to do tons of experiments and then return them all at once so that each one gets maximum value?

I could have misread the science report or be remembering wrong. This seemed like a relevant twist to the original question if someone wants to try to replicate my results.

You probably misread the report. I've basically done the same thing in my tests (only just low above Kerbin) and the science I got was like I wrote before (10, 4.4, 2 and so on), but it said 10 for all of them while I was in space. As long as the science isn't "turned in" (via transmission or recovery) the diminishing returns can't be applied. After all the program can't know if you're gonna turn the other canisters in, lose them on reentry or just reset them later.

So no: Doing a ton of experiments will not get you the full/first value every time.

Edit: You should have a KSP.log file in your KSP diectory. The science stuff is also reported there. If it wasn't too long ago you can just check in there, but only if you haven't started KSP multiple times since then (I think....).

Edited October 17, 2013 by Creat

[Merinsan]

You and I make a nice team posting vaguely remembered details which may either prove or disprove a theory. I am certain each goo reported the same value when activated on the Mun. The discounts would have had to take place afterwards when I recovered the samples, but I remember them being a single line. Maybe someone will rescue us with a better documented experiment, unfortunately I doubt I'll be able to play again for a day or so.

They certainly report the same value when you collect them on site. But you don't get the science then! I'm planning to do a test sometime where I send a ship to Jool (I'll be using infinite fuel to make it easy) with lots of gravity detectors. I'll take measurements and transmit, then I'll also try returning with lots of samples (of readings).

I need to confirm transmitting reduces the total science or not, and I may as well test whether I get more with multiple return samples.

EDIT: Tested it again.

I sent a probe to Moho to do gravity readings. It had 16 gravity detectors.

Transmitting data was identical to returning it. Here are my specific numbers:

Initial Science value was 480. I don't know what this means, but it is not science points - this confused me before. The transmission only got %60 benefit. I continued until the science value went to 0.0.

Listing the numbers in the form of Science value - Science points

Transmission:

480 - 96.0

218.2 - 43.6

99.2 - 19.8

45.1 - 9

20.5 - 4.1

9.3 - 1.9

4.2 - 0.8

1.9 - 0.4

0.9 - 0.2

0.4 - 0.1

0.2 - 0.0

0.1 - 0.0

Total Science Points: 175.9

Sample Return (all had a science value of 480 when collected):

160.0

14.5

1.3

0.1

I collected all the samples at the same time, in fact I collected 16. Only 4 yielded science points.

So if you have the power generation ability, you are better just sending data always. If you are interested, in orbit around Moho I had 4 gigantor solar arrays and an RTG (for the flight there). That kept up with the biggest antenna no problem.

In my opinion this should be changed. There is no way sending data about dirt can give you the same data you could derive from having it in a good lab. Going to post a suggestion about this in the appropriate forum.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Merinsan

[xxfallacyxx]

Curious if anyone could verify the longer a craft is in space between data transmissions the more science it's devices accumulate. I ask as I have a Stayputnik probe orbiting the sun just inside Kerbin's orbit and after fooling around with a manned Minmus flyby I decided to go back to the probe. On a whim I activated my Scooty Puff Jr. SC9001 Science Jr and it generated what seemed to be an odd number of science (235).

[Wheffle]

<snip>

Awesome, thanks for doing those tests and sharing the results!

The system is a little frustrating to me if this data is correct. Spamming transmissions is time-consuming and just isn't my idea of fun gameplay. It's not a terrible system, but I'd be more satisfied with something different I think. Time to head over to the suggestion forum I suppose

[Lazro]

Also, do not decouple your science away when flying. That hurts.

[Creat]

I agree with what appears to be the consensus here: transmitting repeatedly shouldn't yield the same as returning repeatedly. I think it should (to some degree) depend on the type of test though I personally don't really get why thermometer or gravity-thingamajig readings don't give full value when being transmitted back, but I can accept it for gameplay reasons.

With things like Science Jr. or Goo it makes sense, but sending back the results from multiple tests on the same sample should not add up to the same value as bringing a few back (and as you said, it isn't fun gameplay to click "transmit" a few times, waiting for the battery to recharge in between). But most importantly: it should not reduce the amount (or not by much) you get from bringing it back. This would allow us to send non-returning space probes and have that actually be a benefit.

Ah well, we'll see where they take it I guess!

Edited October 18, 2013 by Creat
forgot a sentence... oops

[ScholarBeardpig]

So, is the consensus such that there is so much science to be had for a given observation - say, mystery goo in low Kerbin orbit - and while recovery vs. transmission will 'deplete' the available science at different rates, doing either method repeatedly will eventually get all of it?

I'm just terrified that at some point I'll hit 'peak science' and close off the higher echelons of the tech tree.

[chaotix14]

As someone who is horrible at managing all those experiments while in flight, and actually pretty bad at the game in general, it would be nice if there were some science experiments that you could just slap to a probe, or a manned station and have continuesly generate science without the diminishing returns. Now I am not saying it should be a good income, it just needs to be a stable one. like say putting said probe on a low orbit around Kerbin yielding a very slow 0.1 science per ingame day, and putting one just outside the orbit of Jool generating considderably more per day.(but still a slow rate compared to actuall missions) Just something slow and steady, that still rewards more difficult missions. Because I am certain that otherwise I'll get horribly stuck in the tech tree.(what can I say I need my techs)

[Creat]

So, is the consensus such that there is so much science to be had for a given observation - say, mystery goo in low Kerbin orbit - and while recovery vs. transmission will 'deplete' the available science at different rates, doing either method repeatedly will eventually get all of it?

I'm just terrified that at some point I'll hit 'peak science' and close off the higher echelons of the tech tree.

Well let's put it this way: if you have replenishable energy (panels or thermo-gen) you can apparently just transmit the same experiment repeatedly (according to Merinsans tests) until you get 0.0 science for your efforts. Apparently this gives the same total science as repeatedly returning this experiment. With the experiment he used, he had to do 10 transmissions for a 60% transmission-efficiency device (gravity-reading-thingy), recovering got the same result with 4 (basically the same with 3 already).

So I imagine you'll be doing a lot of transmitting for a device with significantly less transmission efficiency, like the Science Jr or even just Goo.

As to your fear, I'm also sure you can easily find missions for way more science than the tech-tree needs in total. If the wiki-entry is correct, you need a total of 10,738 to unlock everything. I know that someone already managed to do this in exactly three missions. Even just gathering high-low-orbit readings with most instruments at half the planets of the solar system (and returning) should do the trick, if you do decide to transmit-everything-to-death you'll be done quite a lot sooner, but it'll be a lot of right-clicking and waiting for animations and transmissions to finish.