Space Stations not worth anything in .22

[Torham234]

Also keep in mind that any unlimited science-over-time solution turns into an instant exploit due to time warp

Except when pricing, maintenance and wear and tear mechanics are implemented. If you have to shell out 15 000 rent and maintenance each month for your space center, time warp will be your enemy.

[samstarman5]

Soon there will be a need for communication relays, where you will need satellites in orbit to help convey long distance transmissions. Space stations can help fill in for that. Building a refueling station to get your scientific craft to the outer planets is also a viable option. If you look at career mode as you have to do this to get this science which gets me these things, it is all too quickly going to look more like work and less like a game to you. There is more yet to come with career mode, this is just the beginning. Don't start thinking Squad has zero thought to space stations and how they can apply to acquiring science for career mode. There is still a ton of game development yet to be done. For the time being, acquire the parts you need to build a station in your career game anyway, and think of how you might apply it to the current setup. As I said before, a refueling base is a very viable option, as the further you get away from Kerbin, the tons more science you can acquire. Currently a soil sample from Eve is worth 3000 science. Good luck getting it back, but the transmission alone is well worth it.

Break your boundaries, share ideas. Don't just point out the restrictions and what can't be done. Because that only takes away the fun for yourself. Science is waiting to be done.

(Glad to see I am not the only one with these thoughts. Let's keep OP on the positive side of things!)

Want to give space stations more worth? Try something like the "Project: Space Station" approach involving the need to deliver equipment for research (which usually had a tendency to break or wear out).

Which reminds me, who here has played that game? (It was released for the Commodore 64, DOS, and Apple-II I think for the latter of the two)

If that is the same one where you had to plan space shuttle missions to build the ISS as well as perform spacelab experiments to generate funding, then I have the honor of saying I have killed countless astronauts and abandoned two shuttles in orbit in my efforts. It is no wonder I feel such a kinship with KSP. P:SS came to mind early on when talks of docking came to mind and gamers began expressing enthusiasm for the thought of assembling space stations in orbit in KSP. Ah, those were the days....

Except when pricing, maintenance and wear and tear mechanics are implemented. If you have to shell out 15 000 rent and maintenance each month for your space center, time warp will be your enemy.

The thought of starting a long term mission out to another planet and not being able to focus on just it when you need to make sure your space station and other projects keep their funding just makes me drool. My last mission in .21 involved a probe flyby of Eve, and once it entered solar orbit on its journey, it had an ETA of about 46 days before entering Eve SOI. The thought of just letting it proceed while I ran other missions such as a Mun visit and further assembling of the current space station was very enticing. Yeah, I like that thought. It's not like NASA put everything else on hold once they launched New Horizons for Pluto. Since then there has been Curiosity, LADEE, three, maybe four ISS crews, work done on the manned Moon/Mars/Asteroid mission, whatever will come of it. One thing that one should remember is while one spends time in the VAB or the Aero-Hangar, time goes on in your game world. I have worked on projects in the VAB where I am sure any of my satellites in Kerbin orbit made at least one rotation in the process. That is going to be something to consider if maintenance cost is applied to the upcoming budget feature. Like NASA, you will want to make sure current projects are funded for the time you may need to assemble a large craft, which from .22 on will include assembling a complete station in the VAB, and then separating it into sub-assemblies for launch missions. If you have a mission less than an hour out from reaching its destination, you may want to put off any big projects to focus on that.

Right now I am just going to stay in career mode, as I know there will come a time when my acquistion of science will slow down to the point when I will need to plan big missions to the other planets. I aim to get those missions off the ground, and while they are headed for their respective destinations, I will go ahead and assemble a space station, explore the Mun and Minmus and see what new science might be found there, and try out new rocket assemblies. Maybe it won't get me much science in the process since by then I will have visited the Mun and Minmus to acquire the science there, but it will be something to do to try something new with the game while the missions headed out to get me those new tiers in development are on their way. Who knows? Maybe .23 will come in the meantime, refreshing science discoveries in the immediate Kerbin system and I can maintain the current outlying missions in the process. I will make my own sandbox out of career mode.

Edited October 18, 2013 by samstarman5

[Mystic]

Lots of good ideas in this thread. I haven't yet tried any sort of space station building, but if there was a unique science benefit to be had from doing so, I'd definitely be starting to plan for one.

[TNM]

I build a fairly large space station in .20, i miss a reason to do it again in career mode aside from roleplaying purposes or fueldepot. I really would like to see longterm sience, like kerbal-medicine and material exposure.

[KasperVld]

I build a fairly large space station in .20, i miss a reason to do it again in career mode aside from roleplaying purposes or fueldepot. I really would like to see longterm sience, like kerbal-medicine and material exposure.

Then again, what was your reason to do it in sandbox mode in 0.20? In my opinion nothing has really changed for space stations, aside from the fact that everyone is now focussing on gathering science because it's the new feature..

[Merinsan]

Here's an idea. Rather than some simple science-over-time bit, why not have a microgravity laboratory? Put the lab module on a space station, and it doesn't work unless it's in 0G. Then, you have to fly up samples from KSP, dock, run the tests in the lab, then return them. And why not add the capability to have different modules to bolt on to the microgravity lab? Bio lab, polymer lab, et cetera.

This would also give people a reason to learn docking in a hurry.

I love this idea.

[Jarnis]

Also keep in mind that any unlimited science-over-time solution turns into an instant exploit due to time warp

The "science tank" idea which fills up with "science" that you need to offload and return to Kerbin is neat and takes care of that problem quite elegantly.

Solution; As you launch a station, it may have with it cargo in a module ("Science Experiments")

These take time to turn into Science, but cannot be transmitted down - they must be returned. So you have to have a lander to bring them back and then launch another with more experiments to do.

Career could have mission requests "we have this 5 ton can full of science experiments, they must be delivered to orbit with at least 2 kerbals present to do Science over a month and then returned safely" -> X science. And stuff like this only unlocks very late in the tree ("endgame" of sorts, expanded on top of the / at the far end of the tree). All kinds of "deliver X to Y, do Z, return safely" jobs could be generated which then reward something (science, money, prestige, whatever...)

The only hard part is to balance everything so effort vs. reward on everything is at least roughly sane and redoing same over and over has rapidly diminishing returns.

The sky is the limit - and as this is KSP, even that probably isn't right.

[techonce]

THeone thing that crossed my mind is that science is still being done in the space station after you have sucked all of the research points out of Kerbin, however that science does not necessairily have any application to rocketry.

I guess along the same lines, to me there is a bit of a disconnect between science and research anyway. How does studying the ground around Kerbin help you make better rocket engines and fuel tanks? But I don't see how it can be made more connected. Perhaps doing general research creates funds for rocket related research.

[rholtsla98]

Where did you get 2.2 because I'm having enough problems with .22

[TNM]

Then again, what was your reason to do it in sandbox mode in 0.20? In my opinion nothing has really changed for space stations, aside from the fact that everyone is now focussing on gathering science because it's the new feature..

The reason in 0.20 was to just...build one to see if i can. You have to learn docking anyways, so it grows automatically. The problem over time is that you don't need one as no features exist to warrant a station where you suffer through fps-limited gameplay. So, as this is the 2nd "fresh start" for me in KSP, there is no real reason for a space station as features are missing to make them interesting. I know how docking works so no structure will grow from that.

RL space stations exist as "testbeds". You gain knowlede in 2 main areas: building in space (maintenance beeing a large part of it), living in space (split into medicine and support systems = consumables). Both these reasons are not yet relevant in KSP, we don't have to maintain structures and we don't have to support our Kerbonauts. Building consists of docking, no EVA building yet. We don't have to learn it so we skip it and just build rockets to go somewhere based only on fuel (more often then not starting from Kerbin, pure madness ).

A small part of RL STs is supporting experimental sience in form of experiments brought from support vessels, thats what most ppl think sience is (i would dispute that, but ok). I would like to see this part introduced for KSP. As of .22 a sience system is in place so why not doing longterm sience on space stations, probes and planetary bases.

Edited October 18, 2013 by TNM

[KSK]

THeone thing that crossed my mind is that science is still being done in the space station after you have sucked all of the research points out of Kerbin, however that science does not necessairily have any application to rocketry.

I like that! For now it's just roleplaying - 'I'm going to have a big orbiting station with science modules dotted over it because I can.' Once career mode develops a bit further though, having a nice orbital science facility for rent could be a good way of earning money or reputation for your space program. Likewise, solar power sats or huge Whackjobian orbital hotels with room for dozens of kerbals at a time.

This is just the beginning - I'm sure there will be concrete reasons for building orbital facilities as the game develops.

[DYJ]

Spacestations and other rather important features of the game have indeed been marginalized by the .22 career mode, but as Moach said this is just the first revision. The career mode and techtree will likely get much better as it's fleshed out with more parts,mechanics and whatnot.

[razark]

Want to give space stations more worth? Try something like the "Project: Space Station" approach involving the need to deliver equipment for research (which usually had a tendency to break or wear out).

Which reminds me, who here has played that game? (It was released for the Commodore 64, DOS, and Apple-II I think for the latter of the two)

I seem to recall that one had a good model to base station research off of. A need to assign personnel and equipment, with varying degrees of return on investment throughout the experiment's run, and the possibility of running multiple experiments based on resources. It would also give us a reason to have different specializations of Kerbals, even if it was jut Pilot/Scientist to start with.

[TNM]

If you combine that with a limited time Kerbals should/could stay in space (call it endurance) a nice dynamic would ensue around space station gameplay.

[drewscriver]

What about this?

Rather than have a space station give back a set amount of science, or science over time, maybe it could act as a multiplier? Each manned research module would add a small % increase to the amount of science earned from related missions. Naturally, more research modules would increase the multiplier, but with diminishing returns.

[Brofessional]

I like the idea of requiring kerbals to be present to perform experiments in the station science module.

Make it so the more kerbals you have on the station the higher your science multiplier, up to a limit of course.

[Lohan2008]

Sweeet >managed to get a decent conversation on this topic.

[Rage097]

If Science Trickle is not an option, Stations are still useful as fuel depots or checkpoints for missions.

[lazarus1024]

Made a suggestion earlier about making a big heavy power-consuming science bay that could be used to recover data as efficiently as on Kerbin's surface. You wouldn't want to bring it along on any far travelling ship, but as a place to rendezvous and transfer results from your permanent fleet..

I like this idea. A station part that requires HUGE amounts of power, but allows anything docked with the station to transfer science with zero loss.

So you could stick a station in Duna orbit, and you could then just dock with it to transfer soil sample data and stuff...but it requires stonking huge amounts of power to transmit the data...but it is lossless.

Alternately or in addition it would be neat if maybe there were a few new research parts that require significant amounts of time to unlock all of the research points AND take large amounts of power to do it...though time based stuff can be a little broken.

I still really like the idea of a station part with lossless transmision that takes a huge amount of power...maybe a VLHA that can be mounted on a station, or possibly a "Research Module" in conjunction with that Very Large High-gain Antenna

Also maybe other science parts that are just BIG. Like some 2.5m parts, like a "Kerbal Life Sciences" module...that you MUST have a Kerbal inside of (like the hitchhiker) with an IVA view, with things like an exercise bike, zero G treadmill, etc.

A 2.5m Hydroponics bay would also be cool to study "how fungus grows in space" or something like that.

Have the 2.5m parts require extra power when in use and take a certain amount of time to develop the science and also DISABLE time warp while this is occuring. Not taking too long, but say 1% per second or something like that...but use something like 10 power per second or whatever.

[Crush]

Here's an idea. Rather than some simple science-over-time bit, why not have a microgravity laboratory? Put the lab module on a space station, and it doesn't work unless it's in 0G. Then, you have to fly up samples from KSP, dock, run the tests in the lab, then return them. And why not add the capability to have different modules to bolt on to the microgravity lab? Bio lab, polymer lab, et cetera.

This would also give people a reason to learn docking in a hurry.

Seems like a good idea.

In order to do this, surface samples should be handled as inventory items which can be transfered from pod to pod, are kept at the KSC after recovery and can be put onto a pod before launch.

I could also imagine experiments which involve bringing samples from different locations together (what happens when the liquids from the oceans of Eve and Laythe are mixed?)

Add a large energy consumption to the laboratories and we also have a reason to put some huge solar arrays on them.

[Crush]

Another potential use for space stations could be when astronaut training gets implemented.

When I understood it correctly, kerbonauts will gain experience in the future which gives them new skills. When some skills can't be improved unless the kerbonauts apply them in space, an orbital station could serve as a training facility.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Crush

[Goodiej17]

Want to give space stations more worth? Try something like the "Project: Space Station" approach involving the need to deliver equipment for research (which usually had a tendency to break or wear out).

Which reminds me, who here has played that game? (It was released for the Commodore 64, DOS, and Apple-II I think for the latter of the two)

I had it on the 64. And once in a great while I still fire it up on a 64 emulator.

[RabidMonkey]

Loved that game - had it on the Apple IIe. I remember effectively building a Ringworld before I had ever heard of Niven.

[Aragosnat]

I like this idea. A station part that requires HUGE amounts of power, but allows anything docked with the station to transfer science with zero loss.

So you could stick a station in Duna orbit, and you could then just dock with it to transfer soil sample data and stuff...but it requires stonking huge amounts of power to transmit the data...but it is lossless.

Alternately or in addition it would be neat if maybe there were a few new research parts that require significant amounts of time to unlock all of the research points AND take large amounts of power to do it...though time based stuff can be a little broken.

I still really like the idea of a station part with lossless transmision that takes a huge amount of power...maybe a VLHA that can be mounted on a station, or possibly a "Research Module" in conjunction with that Very Large High-gain Antenna

Also maybe other science parts that are just BIG. Like some 2.5m parts, like a "Kerbal Life Sciences" module...that you MUST have a Kerbal inside of (like the hitchhiker) with an IVA view, with things like an exercise bike, zero G treadmill, etc.

A 2.5m Hydroponics bay would also be cool to study "how fungus grows in space" or something like that.

Have the 2.5m parts require extra power when in use and take a certain amount of time to develop the science and also DISABLE time warp while this is occuring. Not taking too long, but say 1% per second or something like that...but use something like 10 power per second or whatever.

Or think of Eve that happens to be a one way trip for most people do to the lag from parts needed to make a craft able to leave it.

[Hallofo]

One thing that seems to have been overlooked in this thread is another important topic: manufacturing. Think of this: you can research those awesome-cool Nuke Engines, but you need to have a zero-G environment to make them. Or perhaps modules that have a hydroponics bay that produces O2 and food.

Yes, these aren't there *yet* but it gives a few ideas for future modding or what have you.