Please, indicate what biome I'm flying over, else EVA reports are laborious tedium

[allmhuran]

So I found out the Mun has 14 biomes. In my 1472 science tier 0 mission I didn't know that, so I loaded up my last save (fortunately in Munar orbit).

Then I did this about 100 times:

- Mosue over kerbal camera

- EVA

- Right click on kerbal

- Get EVA report

- If I already had one for this biome, discard. Otherwise keep.

- Grab ladder

- Enter pod

- Warp for 20 seconds.

And it was boring as hell, but I ended up with 1662 points instead of 1472.

For Kerbin it's not as bad, you can more easily tell when you're over a different biome (but even there it's not always obvious). But holy heck we need some kind of indicator while still in the ship that says "currently in orbit over Kerbin's grasslands", "currently in high orbit over Kerbin", etc.

[Lexar]

I agree it would make it a bit more fun if we knew what or where we were flying over.

[Ultra695]

I made an account on this forum specifically to post this suggestion, and it's already here! Anyway, this would be an awesome quality of life update, and (I think) fairly simple to do. It would help career more be that much more awesome.

[ceauke]

I made an account on this forum specifically to post this suggestion, and it's already here! Anyway, this would be an awesome quality of life update, and (I think) fairly simple to do. It would help career more be that much more awesome.

How about you equip a satelite with a camera and it takes a biome map of the planet as you circle it. Then you can go and investigate those once you've done the actual research of finding the biomes by satelite.

[jcraft]

Mapping satellites would be a really good solution to this issue (and additionally nice addition to gameplay). After you put satellite into orbit (or just flyby) around body it would register any biomes it passes over (and through), then you can toggle biome overlay on the map (similar to Kethane mod for example) to see discovered biomes anytime you want (also, there should be a way to display in which biome you currently are on main UI).

In addition to that it would be nice to see some kind of log where you can see what biomes you discovered on certain body and how much is left to discover, it should also register how much science is left to "harvest" in certain biomes from certain experiments - of course it should not be showed immediately after discovering biome, but only after running at least once certain type of experiment in it. Let the player discover what kind of experiments are possible to do and where but give him some log to track how much is still left to do.

Edited October 20, 2013 by jcraft

[lajoswinkler]

Wow, some people just want to be spoonfed.

It's part of the game. You explore new worlds. Do you think explorers of Earth's poles were granted with a laminated map when they reached their destination? A silly red-white stick with a sphere on the top?

We've got a thread for discovering and sharing info on places in KSP universe and biomes on Kerbin so you're welcome to join.

[jcraft]

Wow, some people just want to be spoonfed.

It's part of the game. You explore new worlds. Do you think explorers of Earth's poles were granted with a laminated map when they reached their destination? A silly red-white stick with a sphere on the top?

I don't want to have everything marked from the start (see my post about mapping satellites) - I just want a system through which I can discover, track and register biomes and experiments.

Edited October 20, 2013 by jcraft

[Superfluous J]

If that 200 points wasn't worth it, then don't do it. Run another 1400 point mission in that time instead.

From what I can tell there is FAR more science to be gotten than you'll ever need to unlock the tech tree items. Why try to get it all in one go anyway?

If the answer to that is "I'm a min/maxer, it's what I do" then you're also the type who won't mind spending hours for a couple more points.

[boomerdog2000]

I wouldn't be against 2 different types of mapping. 1 That is more biome specific like Felipe's from the dev blog, and then another that is a terrain height map like ISA mapsat.

[allmhuran]

Any replies along the lines of "if it's boring don't do it", or "this is too easy" are completely misguided.

The Mun has 14 biomes. If you *ever* intend to get the science from all of them, the *only* way to do that right now is to spam the EVAs. Saying "don't do it if it's boring" is exactly the same as saying "Don't bother ever collecting the data from all the Mun's biomes".

There's nothing "easier" or "harder" about it. Doing this is the only way to collect it all short of looking up a biome map on google images (if one ever appears). And looking up a map on google images would be *exactly the same* as having the information displayed in game. LOL, "spoonfed". Get back to me when you have a 1662 point tier 0 mission under your belt buddy.

To those who disagree, I look forward to you telling me exactly how else you're meant to do it.

Displaying your current biome on screen doesn't change the fact that you still have to get a craft into that biome in the first place, for example by getting a craft into an appropriate orbit. If you want to gather EVA reports for every biome on the Mun, just knowing where they are won't automatically collect it all for you. *eyeroll*

Edited October 20, 2013 by allmhuran

[Guest]

I think that mapping satellites are a very good idea. A satellite equipped with proper sensors could generate a map of a certain area below it (assuming it's pointed right). After such a mapping flight, it would be possible to plan landing missions using the overlay.

[Superfluous J]

Any replies along the lines of "if it's boring don't do it", or "this is too easy" are completely misguided.

I disagree with you, and oddly enough don't think I'm misguided.

The Mun has 14 biomes. If you *ever* intend to get the science from all of them, the *only* way to do that right now is to spam the EVAs. Saying "don't do it if it's boring" is exactly the same as saying "Don't bother ever collecting the data from all the Mun's biomes".

That's exactly what I'm saying. If you're enjoying getting all that science, go for it. If you're finding it a grind, don't do it. Or do it in a less grindy way.

Why exactly is it bad to only get the first report of data on only 4 of the 14 biomes on Mun, and then get bored and move on to Minmus? What's so terrible about sending up a second mission and discovering that you landed in a new biome that you hadn't fully gotten all the scientific data for, or any scientific data at all? Why do you NEED to get ALL the data for all 14 biomes at all, ever? Humans landed on the moon over 40 years ago and we STILL don't know everything about it. Why must you learn everything about Mun in the first mission?

There's nothing "easier" or "harder" about it. Doing this is the only way to collect it all short of looking up a biome map on google images (if one ever appears). And looking up a map on google images would be *exactly the same* as having the information displayed in game. LOL, "spoonfed". Get back to me when you have a 1662 point tier 0 mission under your belt buddy.

I never said easy or hard. I said fun or unfun, or worth it or not. To me, if it's not fun and not worth it, I won't do it. You seem to think it's not fun, but worth it. We disagree on that part.

And if I must do a 1662 point tier 0 mission for you to listen to me... I just won't. Sorry. That doesn't sound fun OR worth it.

To those who disagree, I look forward to you telling me exactly how else you're meant to do it.

I already did. Do another mission. Get a couple hundred points for it. Unlock a tier or two. Do more missions. That's what I'm doing and I'm having an absolute blast. I'm not telling you how to play the game, but you seem to be absolutely hating what you're doing right now so maybe you need to modify your play style.

[allmhuran]

I think I have a game you'd enjoy. It's a white screen 100 pixels by 100 pixels. Here's you you play: You click on a pixel to select it, then type the word "boring". After doing this the game will tell you whether or not there was a prize under that particular pixel. There are half a dozen prizes to be found.

There's no way of knowing where the prizes are in advance, the game gives you no indication of when you're close to a pixel, and while the game will keep track of which prizes you've already won it won't do anything to the pixels you've already checked. They just turn white again.

Sound like fun?

[boomerdog2000]

I've done about 4 or 5 different Mun mission to the major craters and a small sub-orbital hop from a crater to the highlands. It can be a little annoying to try and remember which ones are which though. Which is why someone has thoughtfully made a map of the Mun as we discover biomes for it here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/53567-List-of-places-and-biomes-in-v0-22-%28Kerbal-planetary-geology-and-geography%29/page6

[Superfluous J]

I think I have a game you'd enjoy. It's a white screen 100 pixels by 100 pixels. Here's you you play: You click on a pixel to select it, then type the word "boring". After doing this the game will tell you whether or not there was a prize under that particular pixel. There are half a dozen prizes to be found.

There's no way of knowing where the prizes are in advance, the game gives you no indication of when you're close to a pixel, and while the game will keep track of which prizes you've already won it won't do anything to the pixels you've already checked. They just turn white again.

Sound like fun?

No, it doesn't.

It also in no way applies to the 100% chance you have of getting science on every single mission you make to a new place.

Here's a game for you that I think is more appropriate. In the game you build rockets, test them, send fun little green men into space and once you get there there's a single button that, if you click it, you get points that let you unlock more stuff for your next mission. You need to click about 50 buttons total all game unless you spend all your time in one place, in which case you need to click 100,000 buttons.

I'm clicking 50 buttons. You're clicking 100,000. No wonder I'm having more fun than you are.

[Lexar]

Wow, some people just want to be spoonfed.

It's part of the game. You explore new worlds. Do you think explorers of Earth's poles were granted with a laminated map when they reached their destination? A silly red-white stick with a sphere on the top?

We've got a thread for discovering and sharing info on places in KSP universe and biomes on Kerbin so you're welcome to join.

So you are saying you would rather get in your car and drive to a location 1/2 way across the continent you live on without looking at any maps, road signs, or asking any directions. What's wrong with knowing where you are going? Do you think NASA sends manned space flights without mapping the surface first?

The whole point of knowing what biomes you are in or over is to explore new biomes. Otherwise I just say, "Screw it i really don't care. On to the next planet."

On a side note, I love the idea about sending up a satellite to get a map of the planet and it's biomes. It would still have immersion, you still work for your exploration, and it makes searching for biomes more fun. Heck they could make it an "end game" part so you have to unlock everything to get the mapping tool. That way when you are done with your science you can start a whole new biome exploration after your science exploration is over.

I wouldn't be against 2 different types of mapping. 1 That is more biome specific like Felipe's from the dev blog, and then another that is a terrain height map like ISA mapsat.

This would be pretty easy to overlap. Have a scanning screen that has 2 tabs. One tab shows terrain height, and the other shows the biomes. Or just outline the biomes on the terrain height map. Maybe click on a biome to enlarge the area of that biome only. The options are endless. Edited October 21, 2013 by Lexar

[Zetal]

No, it doesn't.

It also in no way applies to the 100% chance you have of getting science on every single mission you make to a new place.

Here's a game for you that I think is more appropriate. In the game you build rockets, test them, send fun little green men into space and once you get there there's a single button that, if you click it, you get points that let you unlock more stuff for your next mission. You need to click about 50 buttons total all game unless you spend all your time in one place, in which case you need to click 100,000 buttons.

I'm clicking 50 buttons. You're clicking 100,000. No wonder I'm having more fun than you are.

I think we just have a good old fashioned misunderstanding here. It sounds like you believe that the OP is asking for all 14 biomes to be automatically added to the ship whenever you fly over them, or something of that nature. From what I can tell, that isn't what he's asking for at all-

The way that biomes are determined is completely arbitrary and in many instances looks identical to other biomes. As of right now, the only way to determine your biome is by getting out of your pod and doing an EVA report, but there's absolutely no reason against simply showing what biome you're currently in on the HUD. The reasoning for this is similar to showing altitude, velocity, or fuel. It isn't NECESSARY, but it makes for better game design and just makes sense in general. You would still have to EVA to gather the science for said biome, but you would know when you'd have to get out of your ship. You wouldn't know which way to go for the next biome, or anything like that- it'd just say at the top left or something; 'Biome: Grasslands' as a piece of information available to the player.

[allmhuran]

The "mapping satellite" is a fine idea... as long as it happens while time warped. I believe the kethane mod had a mapping satellite that could do this, so it should be OK.

As of right now, the only way to determine your biome is by getting out of your pod and doing an EVA report, but there's absolutely no reason against simply showing what biome you're currently in on the HUD

Yep, that's precisely it.

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding, so let me try to put this a different way.

My contention is that having 14 biomes is meant to serve some purpose, but the gameplay elements that take advantage of this feature are, right now, laborious and monotonous. The key question, in terms of gameplay mechanics, is this: "Should I get out now and do an EVA report?"

5thHorseman, your answer seems to be "Yes, but only once, ever, on each celestial body. Just go to a different celestial body to get more science". In the context of my contention, this equates to "ignore the fact that there are 14 biomes. There might as well be only one". Well, that's fine, but then I would question the purpose of Squad including all these biomes.

Lajoswinkler, your answer seems to be "I don't know and I don't want to know, you are supposed to have to discover all the biomes". But the only way of doing so is randomly getting out, doing an EVA, and hoping you're over a different biome. And, of course, this can only be done at 1x warp. So, again, this is laborious and tedious. As per my OP, I spent an hour orbiting the Mun repeating the same actions over and over to do this "exploration", and that was the very definition of monotony. It was certainly not fun. If I may assert that the game is supposed to be fun, then I may also assert that this mechanic should be changed.

Edited October 21, 2013 by allmhuran

[Wallace]

If there's no visual way to tell the biomes apart, like on Kerbin, then there really should be some way to determine them. I mean, we know the big craters are their own biome, and can see them on the map, and the poles we know where they are, but the rest all looks grey, so how can we tell what part is a seperate biome? It would be nice if I could look down and go, this land below looks different, out the kerbal goes to report on it, same as on Kerbin, if not, then there should be some other kind indicator.

I think the idea of some kind of mapping device would be good, adds a new thing to do, it could be made fairly heavy and a huge electric hog so it's more of a challenge, and put it a decent way up the tech tree, so you have to go mun blind first and see what biomes you can find, then return to bag the obscure ones after finding them with the scanner, that would give you a reason to go back to the Mun and Kerbin later in the game to seek out the elusive biomes you missed.

[boomerdog2000]

I believe the other biomes may be based on altitude similar to highlands and mountains on Kerbin. With terrain mapping this would still work. Perhaps you could start out with just a terrain mapper lower on the tech-tree, then a dedicated biome scanner farther up?

[Eric S]

Any replies along the lines of "if it's boring don't do it", or "this is too easy" are completely misguided.

Not really. You don't have to collect all the biomes of the moon to finish the tech tree. Heck, I've completed the tech tree in a save where the only places I landed at the time I finished the tech tree were on Kerbin, Minmus, Duna, Ike, and Gilly. One Munar flyby got me five EVA reports (one high space, four near space over biomes), and that was the extent of my contact with the Mun in the entire save.

That said, I'm not actually against your suggestion, I'd like to see it, but really, "if it's boring don't do it" is a valid answer in this case. If it's not fun and isn't necessary, why do it? The game itself isn't compelling you to do it.

Get back to me when you have a 1662 point tier 0 mission under your belt buddy.

I think this is at the heart of the issue. The way you play the game is not the way most people do (I'm probably closer to your style than normal people's style), and you're asking for a feature that suits your playstyle and dismissing the opinions of people that don't have your playstyle.

As I said, this really isn't a critique of your suggestion, as I'm in favor of it, but rather of your way of dealing with criticism about it.

[allmhuran]

That said, I'm not actually against your suggestion, I'd like to see it, but really, "if it's boring don't do it" is a valid answer in this case. If it's not fun and isn't necessary, why do it? The game itself isn't compelling you to do it.

I think this is at the heart of the issue. The way you play the game is not the way most people do (I'm probably closer to your style than normal people's style), and you're asking for a feature that suits your playstyle and dismissing the opinions of people that don't have your playstyle.

As I said, this really isn't a critique of your suggestion, as I'm in favor of it, but rather of your way of dealing with criticism about it.

Again, this misses the point of the criticism, but perhaps the point wasn't clear before, so let me parrot what I said in my more recent post:

The key question, in terms of gameplay mechanics, is this: "Should I get out now and do an EVA report?"

5thHorseman, your answer seems to be "Yes, but only once, ever, on each celestial body. Just go to a different celestial body to get more science". In the context of my contention, this equates to "ignore the fact that there are 14 biomes. There might as well be only one". Well, that's fine, but then I would question the purpose of Squad including all these biomes.

It's not a question only relevant for hardcore players. Imagine you send just two missions to the Mun. You did an EVA report on your first mission. You want to do one on the second mission as well, but when you do you are informed that the science value is small because you already have the data for this biome (from your previous mission). What will you do, other than what I had to do, to get a second EVA report for the Mun? What about a third?

[Wallace]

Imagine you send just two missions to the Mun. You did an EVA report on your first mission. You want to do one on the second mission as well, but when you do you are informed that the science value is small because you already have the data for this biome (from your previous mission). What will you do, other than what I had to do, to get a second EVA report for the Mun? What about a third?

Identifying 2 or 3 or 5 different biomes on the Mun does not require any searching at all, looking down on the Mun, there are 4 very obvious giant craters which you can easily aim for, likewise on Kerbin, there's a huge desert, oceans, mountains, icey poles that are very easy to see from orbit. You only need to do this intense searching when looking for the more subtle variations, like mountain vs highlands, or dessert vs badlands, or on the mun, highlands, midlands and polar lowlands, which are not so obvious that there is a difference just from appearance.

[togfox]

Wow, some people just want to be spoonfed.

It's part of the game. You explore new worlds.

Ditto. When there is nothing to do, ppl complain. When there is too much to do, ppl complain. I look forward to the moment weeks from now i discover some cryptic biome that i didnt realise existed.

[John FX]

I think we just have a good old fashioned misunderstanding here. It sounds like you believe that the OP is asking for all 14 biomes to be automatically added to the ship whenever you fly over them, or something of that nature. From what I can tell, that isn't what he's asking for at all-

The way that biomes are determined is completely arbitrary and in many instances looks identical to other biomes. As of right now, the only way to determine your biome is by getting out of your pod and doing an EVA report, but there's absolutely no reason against simply showing what biome you're currently in on the HUD. The reasoning for this is similar to showing altitude, velocity, or fuel. It isn't NECESSARY, but it makes for better game design and just makes sense in general. You would still have to EVA to gather the science for said biome, but you would know when you'd have to get out of your ship. You wouldn't know which way to go for the next biome, or anything like that- it'd just say at the top left or something; 'Biome: Grasslands' as a piece of information available to the player.

Nice first post, welcome to the forum.

BTW I think you have the issue nailed. Nobody wants to cheat but nobody wants to have to repeat the same actions over and over just to see if it is the right time to do the actions...