How do play this game without Engineer Redux?

[Gus]

Whenever I try playing without Engineer Redux I have very little idea how to do anything efficiently. The biggest problem is not knowing the TWRs (Thrust to Weight Ratios) and delta-Vs. Without Engineer Redux it seems to be all guess-work and trial and error. I realize that I could calculate these values but I'd prefer to spend my time on other issues. Am I missing something?

[Rage097]

I tend to play everything out by eye and guesswork. This is effective for round trips to the Mun and Minmus with extra fuel left in certain stages. I can also guess my way to other planets. but going to and LANDING then RETURNING form other planets will require more planning. You kinda have to use common sense and guess it if you don't want to do the calculations.

[Superfluous J]

The key is... don't know that stuff. Guess, and get a feel for what is enough. You can do it. Waste fuel. leave spent stages in orbit. Don't break 250m/s until you've broken 10,000 meters on ascent, but otherwise ignore atmospheric drag. If your engine can't push you, you know your TWR is too low and you need a bigger engine (or more engines). Otherwise you just need to fiddle.

Honestly though I (like you) prefer not to do all that. Engineer was one of the first mods I installed on upgrading and don't feel bad about it at all. Why are you trying to play without it if playing with it is more fun?

[briansun1]

I use mechjeb

[Gus]

The key is... don't know that stuff. Guess, and get a feel for what is enough. You can do it. Waste fuel. leave spent stages in orbit. Don't break 250m/s until you've broken 10,000 meters on ascent, but otherwise ignore atmospheric drag. If your engine can't push you, you know your TWR is too low and you need a bigger engine (or more engines). Otherwise you just need to fiddle.

Honestly though I (like you) prefer not to do all that. Engineer was one of the first mods I installed on upgrading and don't feel bad about it at all. Why are you trying to play without it if playing with it is more fun?

I guess I'm trying to enjoy the game as Squad presents it (ie. stock). I am trying to demonstrate to myself that playing without this information can be just as fun. But I just don't like it. I can't figure out why Squad doesn't include this basic information. They give you lots of other numbers (mostly velocities and distances) elsewhere.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Gus

[Gus]

I use mechjeb

I was waiting for that answer.

[Kerbart]

Add these two lines to the config file of the specific Engineer part you want to use (under "Editor Parameters"):

TechRequired = start

entryCost = 0

You'll have to go to the tech tree, click on "start" and activate the part but that's about it. I'm considering to do the same with mechjeb. I don't see adding mods like those as "overriding" the tech tree, they are just tools that remove boring, repetitive tasks out of the game for me.

[MedievalNerd]

Whenever I try playing without Engineer Redux I have very little idea how to do anything efficiently. The biggest problem is not knowing the TWRs (Thrust to Weight Ratios) and delta-Vs. Without Engineer Redux it seems to be all guess-work and trial and error. I realize that I could calculate these values but I'd prefer to spend my time on other issues. Am I missing something?

Same my friend. Unless you have personal knowledge of rocketry, or considerable amounts of time to do various experiments. It'll be hard to get a grasp of whats' going on. And this compounds itself once you want to make complicated crafts or missions. There is nothing more frustrating to do a long mission, just to realize you didn't calculate your TWR right for landing/launching or wtvr.

Imagine if NASA worked like that, 2 scientists get together, no calculations and say How many of those orange tanks we need to go up there? 2? 3? Maybe let's go for 3. I mean, lol, the image makes me laugh a lot. But to get back to the issue, I would reintegrate Engineer redux into the tech tree. I mean stock pods should have all this data available on stock. How has the time to take out a calculator and figure out delta Vs by hand? Not me.

[briansun1]

you know you can just test your landers with hyperedit right?(and how do you think NASA got started?)

[Oddible]

I guess I'm trying to enjoy the game as Squad presents it (ie. stock). I am trying to demonstrate to myself that playing without this information can be just as fun. But I just don't like it. I can't figure out why Squad doesn't include this basic information. They give you lots of other numbers (mostly velocities and distances) elsewhere.

Because the mods have done it already, between Engineer, MechJeb and Protractor you have all you need. There are myriad other mods that do similarly. It is a moddable game that was always meant to have a strong modding community (hence the mod API being added so early). Best to have Squad working on things in the game that can't be done with mods. Maybe they'll add an internal version of Engineer some day, but no need for it now.

Of course the answer to your actually question is: DOCUMENTATION AND MATH.

If you don't find that fun, then use the wiki, http://ksp.olex.biz/, and mods

[Dave Kerbin]

Pen and a small scratch pad to figure out weights, and a scientific calculator of some kind (I use Excel 2003 to easily update my calculations, you could also use Google docs for free) for LN and EXP.

Remember that except for the tiny fuel containers the fuel weight ratio is always 8:1 (8 tons of fuel for every 1 ton of dry storage). Also that 1 ton of fuel (1 + 1/8 if dry mass is included) is 80 L of fuel plus the oxydizer.

The rest can be done with a bit of educated guess work and a bit of testing. This method also lets you reverse the formula - you can figure out the weight of your ship without any fuel tanks, then compute how much fuel is required to achieve a specific delta-v (I'm not sure if Engineer lets you do that, I haven't used any mods).

[Kasuha]

I don't have problems with other people using mods, but I'm trying to enjoy the game unmodded. Guesswork is part of the fun for me. The statement "it's problem that I have to guess the TWR" is about the same as "it's problem that I have to guess where others are" in FPS and using it as argument for using wallhack cheat.

Now, I'm not saying people using mods are cheating. The game's not finished and it's not clear what will make it to the final release and what will not. But people playing with mods calculating TWR and dv for them are definitely playing a different game.

[MedievalNerd]

you know you can just test your landers with hyperedit right?(and how do you think NASA got started?)

How is using HyperEdit easier than Engineer or MechJeb in the vab? Also, i'd say that it detracts further from "enjoying the game from a stock perspective". But that's just me.

I don't have problems with other people using mods, but I'm trying to enjoy the game unmodded. Guesswork is part of the fun for me. The statement "it's problem that I have to guess the TWR" is about the same as "it's problem that I have to guess where others are" in FPS and using it as argument for using wallhack cheat.

Now, I'm not saying people using mods are cheating. The game's not finished and it's not clear what will make it to the final release and what will not. But people playing with mods calculating TWR and dv for them are definitely playing a different game.

I'm not sure the parallel you are trying to make between cheating in an FPS, and having flight/construction data available to you? Maybe you are referring to mods that having engines hat consume no fuel, or perhaps over powered parts. But mods that give you access to data is not cheating.

To compare wanting that data with using wallhacks in an FPS is a bit of a stretch.

Also, as you said. It depends what you want out of KSP. I tend to be a bit on the nerdy/semi realistic side of things. So blindly launching stuff in my mind is insane. lol. It's a bit like when the maneuver nodes were added, some purists were saying that it was cheating to use it. To each his own.

Edited October 21, 2013 by MedievalNerd

[Simon Ross]

Think like a lot of people, I am trying to play career mode as 'vanilla' as possible, but my sandbox version is chock full of mods and aids. Really don't think there is anything wrong with enjoying playing both versions of the game. Some days I want a real challenge and fire up career mode, other days I simply want to put together impossible ships and fly them around the solar system. Both versions are equally valid, it's simply depends on the mood I am in at the time.

[Karriz]

I don't think Engineer redux (or Mechjeb windows) is a cheat by any means - you could calculate delta-V and TWR it by yourself, but Engineer redux just conveniently gives the numbers to you, which makes sense from gameplay perspective.

I also have a similar kind of a habit. I want to know if my rocket has enough delta-V to reach it's destination. I also like to use protractor to get the most fuel efficient launch windows. I just want the numbers, no autopilot. I think these will be implemented to the game eventually in one way or another.

[briansun1]

the post was in answer to this

There is nothing more frustrating to do a long mission, just to realize you didn't calculate your TWR right for landing/launching

Edited October 21, 2013 by briansun1

[aNewHope]

Since the 0.22 update I play stock. Eyeballing missions to the Mun, Minmus, Duna and Eve is totally possible. I even got a probe to a close flyby with Moho and returned it to Kerbin (I really don't like the repeat-experiment-and-send-data way of playing).

But now I want to try a mission to Eeloo with landing and return. Guess I have to get the engineer again.

[MedievalNerd]

the post was in answer the this

Oh I see! With Engineer I simply switch the celestial bodie's gravity to use. And there we go. Although I'm working on a mission pack and perhaps using hyperedit to tag locations might be helpful... I'll give it a spin.

[briansun1]

or you know just go there

[MockKnizzle]

It's simple enough to just do some rough calculations for things like TWR. Add up the mass of the stage in question, multiply by 10, and see if your total engine thrust is more than that. If it is, congratulations! you have TWR > 1.0 on Kerbin, which means you'll be able to lift off/land anywhere but Eve.

If you don't want massive TWR safety margins on your landers, then just cut your thrust to like a third for Duna and a sixth for the Mun.

[Supernovy]

Using the map screen mass readout on the right of the map screen, and the resources display (set to stage only) you can figure out the delta-v at any point in flight via:

ln[mass/(mass-0.005(liquid fuel + oxidiser))]*9.82*Isp

You either have to remember the engine's stats, or just right click it to check Isp. It gets a little trickier with multiple engines, but Thrust = mass flow rate * Isp * 9.82, and the flow rate given in the right click menu for engines is the volume flow rate, so:

Thrust/(flow*0.005*9.82) = Isp

For the sum of the thrusts and flow rates.

Lastly, TWR is fairly easy, you just have to know the surface gravity of the body (e.g. from the wiki) or bring a Gravioli detector or Accelerometer, which gives you gravitational acceleration in m/s/s or gees respectively. 9.81 * (gees) = m/s/s.

TWR = Thrust/(mass * gravity)

The thrust is again the sum of all the thrusts on active engines, and the mass from the map screen readout.

So as long as you have a calculator that can do natural logs (ln), like the windows calculation in scientific mode, you can figure out all of these things. In the VAB, you'll have to momentarily bring the craft out to the launchpad to get some of these readings, though. You could think of it as ground tests or engine static firings.

[tavert]

Hey, be glad we at least have a stock mass readout in flight now.

If you're the type to make spreadsheets to do calculations about a game (I sure am), you can recreate pretty much all of the calculations that MechJeb and Engineer do for you, at least the VAB design-related ones. Having it there live in the game for you just makes the whole process faster and easier.

[Stankleberry]

I tried playing career mode for about 10 minutes before I fixed Kerbal Engineer to be available from the beginning in all of the pods.

[DMagic]

I guess I'm trying to enjoy the game as Squad presents it (ie. stock). I am trying to demonstrate to myself that playing without this information can be just as fun. But I just don't like it. I can't figure out why Squad doesn't include this basic information. They give you lots of other numbers (mostly velocities and distances) elsewhere.

I understand this philosophy; there are good reasons to not use Engineer/MJ, but there are also good reasons for why not to overload users with information in the stock game. Though I think career mode presents a good opportunity to introduce this kind of info in a more reasonable way.

One piece of information that I do wish were made more readily available is the craft mass. You can get it from the map, but it would be nice to be able to see this somehow in the VAB. Basically everything you need to know can be calculated from the information readily available (amount of fuel, thrust, ISP), total mass is the only missing component (and adding up 200 parts is no fun).

Another issue that I have with Engineer/MJ is that they force you (or at least guide you) into the design standards that they can deal with. For instance, RCS powered landers are completely feasible and in many cases very useful, but those mods just give you a blank stare when you try to incorporate them. Or take the case of a standard Apollo style lander/orbiter. It's hard to find out the available deltaV at each stage because the lander ends up much lighter when it returns to dock with the orbiter.

There are ways around some of these limitations, but I usually resort to calculating by hand when I make designs like this. And that's not something that a lot of people will want to do when they have the tools that can work with different designs.

[rhoark]

The way Squad intends KSP is with mods. That's why they provide modding. Developers play with mods in their own games.