[1.12.*] Deadly Reentry v7.9.0 The Barbie Edition, Aug 5th, 2021

[Starwaster]

Hello

i have a little question

Is there a way to configure burning FX ?

don't know why i get burning FX during ascend

is it a side effect of DRE & temp skin ?

sorry if question was already asked ...

Sounds like a side effect of a setting designed to ensure that reentry heating starts early and higher up in the atmosphere. I don't think there's a lot I can do about it but I'll look into it.

It's some interaction with FAR. I tried DR with stock no issue. DR with FAR leads to exploding science. Replication

1. Start game with DR and FAR latest dev build.

2.a Build plane with service bay stock.

2b Load science in said service bay

3. Launch plane.

4. Get speed over mach 1

5. Fly level until part explodes as skintemp slowly creeps to 1500+K.

Here is a 100% stock craft file so you can skip to step 3.

And is that the latest release version of DRE or the development build that I posted a few pages back?

[Svm420]

And is that the latest release version of DRE or the development build that I posted a few pages back?

Yes also was at 10km altitude

[Starwaster]

On a side note, I still seem to be having some convection heating problems...or at least that's what I think it is. Using DRE 7.0.3 with Starwaster's updated DLL and .cfg.

A good thing to report was that parts within PF no longer almost spontaneously explode with the updated DLLs and Procedural Fairings.

However I still keep getting cheese-made parts explode in a relatively normal ascent. For example the stock micro-landing struts get destroyed due to heating before I even finish setting the apo during ascent.

I don't understand, even if convective(heat transmitted from one part to another, right?) heating with DRE is supposed to be realistic with the part skin system, I don't get how burning the first stage engine for 2 mins can overheat a part that is on the topmost of the rocket. Realistically there is some heat shielding between stages, right? Isn't it the same in KSP with decouplers? Shouldn't they at least limit any heat going through them by some percentage?

I don't really understand the technical data related to heating in 1.0, I remember someone explained it somewhere(maybe Starwaster, but I can't seem to find it), but here's a few screens and an output log.

Output_log

https://bg3.biz/cloud/index.php/s/E0SujuioB46VDjl

https://bg3.biz/cloud/index.php/s/6UpCo4UU7prooXr

https://bg3.biz/cloud/index.php/s/xKrzIq5QapC3BFI

Sorry, I guess you keep falling between the cracks. Looking at that last picture I see you have high temp on the part but there's no flux, not even conduction or internal. I'm not sure where that's coming from and I don't get that on my end. I'll get back to you on this.

btw, the categories are

conduction = heat transfer from part to part. From skin to internal uses similar code and falls in this category but shows up as 'Int Flux'

convection = heat transfer from the atmosphere. Subsonic or at rest this mostly equalizes your temperature to ambient. At supersonic or hypersonic you get lots of heating from compression of the air. (the shockwave)

radiation = Mostly from ambient or from the sun, but hypersonic speeds also result in radiation flux. IRL, for very high speeds this can account for more flux than from convection for planets like Mars. (not sure we're modeling that accurately.... but there is definite radiation flux from reentry)

internal (int Flux) = this is heat from any other sources. A catch all group.

[RyanK]

Is it normal for DRE in 1.0.2 to use the entire ablative heat shield on a MK1 pod for a re-entry from LKO? IIRC correctly in .90 you'd get different rates of depletion depending on the re-entry velocity. Now it appears that 100% of the shield is used regardless of the velocity.

[Starwaster]

Is it normal for DRE in 1.0.2 to use the entire ablative heat shield on a MK1 pod for a re-entry from LKO? IIRC correctly in .90 you'd get different rates of depletion depending on the re-entry velocity. Now it appears that 100% of the shield is used regardless of the velocity.

It's not unusual.

[Nothalogh]

So it seems that DRE is incinerating my RCS blocks when flying at hypersonic speeds.

While not unreasonable, I think it means we need a separate class of RCS thruster with heat shielding and aerodynamic shape, the tradeoff being increased weight.

[OzoneGrif]

Hi, first thank you for Deadly Reentry. It's a mandatory mod to my list. Sadly I encountered many frustrating behaviors today with the mod (1.0.2)

First, the Stock Heatshields are still available in the construction list, but they don't use the same resource as Deadly's Heatshields, leading to a simple and lethal explosion and no ablation at all if you use them by accident.

Second, the new Heatshields don't weight anything (or not enough), which means you have to manually control the craft on reentry which is sometimes almost impossible when the aero is strong. The Heatshield is supposed to weight tons, and stay naturally in front of the craft during reentry, SAS off.

Third, I've seen my Reentry Heatshield consume its whole 200pts of ablator at 55km altitude (for a 3500m/s reentry), then it stayed at zero for five more reentry cycles and survived to the end. This makes the ablator meaningless.

Are these problems fixed in 1.0.3 ?

[rdswo]

And is that the latest release version of DRE or the development build that I posted a few pages back?

Yes also was at 10km altitude

Q:"this or that?"

A:"yes"

sorry, couldn't help but giggling

[arkie87]

radiation = Mostly from ambient or from the sun, but hypersonic speeds also result in radiation flux. IRL, for very high speeds this can account for more flux than from convection for planets like Mars. (not sure we're modeling that accurately.... but there is definite radiation flux from reentry)

internal (int Flux) = this is heat from any other sources. A catch all group.

Not only that, but it also prevents (radiative) heat loss from radiation to ambient (since ambient is hotter than the part)

- - - Updated - - -

No, IRL, for something like AVCOAT 5026 (what Apollo used), pyrolysis starts at something like 400 but the surface of the shield can reach 2700 Celsius.

I forget what temperature pyrolysis actually peaked at... just totally guestimating here... something like 800. It was a range of a few hundred. Surface still gets much hotter than that

Yeah, the skin has to get hotter to transfer heat into the ablative material in order for it to ablate. However, the part temperature should always remain equal to pyrolysis temperature, no?

[blu3wolf]

It's not unusual.

How can I get mine to do that? From LKO Im not using ANY AblativeShielding, and only small amounts for faster reentries.

- - - Updated - - -

dammit its not DEADLY enough for me

[Bruunz]

Hi,

I would like raise an incompatibility between KW Rocketry 2.7 and DRE 7.0.3 (KSP Win32 1.0.2)

The game does not produce an error however it gets stuck on the loading screen on the following part:

KWRocketry/Parts/Areo/150mSRBTop/Part/KW2mSRBNoseCone

The loading screen still cycles between messages.

I have tried a fresh install with only these to mods and ModuleManager.2.6.5 and it is reproducible. The contains a lot of:

Serialization depth limit exceeded at 'ThermalLink'. There may be an object composition cycle in one or more of your serialized classes.

Log File: https://www.dropbox.com/s/th76vb8c6vd6fjy/KSP.zip?dl=0

[Svm420]

How can I get mine to do that? From LKO Im not using ANY AblativeShielding, and only small amounts for faster reentries.

- - - Updated - - -

dammit its not DEADLY enough for me

I have heard and seen some evidence that ablator/ablativeshielding is hard to use or isn't used if your reentry vessel has other resources in it such as monoprop. YMMV

Edited May 26, 2015 by Svm420

[Starwaster]

Hi, first thank you for Deadly Reentry. It's a mandatory mod to my list. Sadly I encountered many frustrating behaviors today with the mod (1.0.2)

First, the Stock Heatshields are still available in the construction list, but they don't use the same resource as Deadly's Heatshields, leading to a simple and lethal explosion and no ablation at all if you use them by accident.

Second, the new Heatshields don't weight anything (or not enough), which means you have to manually control the craft on reentry which is sometimes almost impossible when the aero is strong. The Heatshield is supposed to weight tons, and stay naturally in front of the craft during reentry, SAS off.

Third, I've seen my Reentry Heatshield consume its whole 200pts of ablator at 55km altitude (for a 3500m/s reentry), then it stayed at zero for five more reentry cycles and survived to the end. This makes the ablator meaningless.

Are these problems fixed in 1.0.3 ?

Do you mean 7.0.3? 1.0.3 sounds like a KSP version #

Anyway, the resource is irrelevant. It's just a resource to be consumed, nothing more.

I just mounted a stock shield to the front of a solid booster and it's being consumed and it's ablating and protecting.

The new shields mass is probably less of an issue than their center of pressure, which can be offset, and probably SHOULD be getting offset. I can't remember if I already did that but it will be going into the next update.

How can I get mine to do that? From LKO Im not using ANY AblativeShielding, and only small amounts for faster reentries.

- - - Updated - - -

dammit its not DEADLY enough for me

FAR or no-FAR? Have you changed any settings, including the stock reentry difficulty?

I have heard and seen some evidence that ablator/ablativeshielding is hard to use or isn't used if your reentry vessel has other resources in it such as monoprop. YMMV

The ONLY effect that other resources have is that they alter the part's overall thermal mass just as they do its mass. (in other words, if applying the same amount of heat flux to an empty tank and a tank full of water, the empty tank will be heated to a higher temperature than the one that has water)

Edited May 26, 2015 by Starwaster

[Gryphon]

The ONLY effect that other resources have is that they alter the part's overall thermal mass just as they do its mass. (in other words, if applying the same amount of heat flux to an empty tank and a tank full of water, the empty tank will be heated to a higher temperature than the one that has water)

I never thought of my capsule's tank of RCS as a tank of heat sink.

[Sput42]

Seems like the craft file was built when I had SetiCtt installed which made some parts physicsless. After I uninstalled SetiCtt, while still having the craft loaded on the launchpad, it still lags.

Seems like the craft file also loads the parts physicsless even when the original part is not overidden anymore in the game.

I tried a stock sandbox mode and the error messages are gone.

So I ran into the same issue (massless parts causing nullpointer exceptions in DRE), caused by SETIctt, well, making some parts (thermometers, barometers, struts, fuel pipes) massless.

Can/should this be fixed in DRE? I mean, I can mod some mass back into those parts (and I can confirm that this fixes the issue), but that doesn't sound like the cleanest solution I'm not sure if DRE should simply ignore those parts or assign some sensible default set of thermal properties, but it should at least handle that case.

- - - Updated - - -

It works now

However, after putting some science parts onto the ship I'm building, it's now spewing this:

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)

[DeadlyReentry.ModuleAeroReentry] sensorBarometer: PartThermalData is NULL!

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)

[DeadlyReentry.ModuleAeroReentry] sensorThermometer: PartThermalData is NULL!

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)

[DeadlyReentry.ModuleAeroReentry] sensorBarometer: PartThermalData is NULL!

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)

[DeadlyReentry.ModuleAeroReentry] sensorThermometer: PartThermalData is NULL!

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)

[DeadlyReentry.ModuleAeroReentry] sensorBarometer: PartThermalData is NULL!

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)

My FPS also dropped by 10 frames due to this (I think).

Log file:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-Ygs3rUb405UzVuZHVESlFlQlk/view?usp=sharing

For reference, this is the original report including logs.

[Starwaster]

So I ran into the same issue (massless parts causing nullpointer exceptions in DRE), caused by SETIctt, well, making some parts (thermometers, barometers, struts, fuel pipes) massless.

Can/should this be fixed in DRE? I mean, I can mod some mass back into those parts (and I can confirm that this fixes the issue), but that doesn't sound like the cleanest solution I'm not sure if DRE should simply ignore those parts or assign some sensible default set of thermal properties, but it should at least handle that case.

- - - Updated - - -

For reference, this is the original report including logs.

I don't know that they ever were truly massless, and if they were then I have to disown any responsibility for cleaning up after other mods. No part should EVER be massless as it can cause all manner of trouble. (The solution there is to not run mods that can inflict that kind of damage and the problems that it can create are not limited to DRE)

As I recall from looking at the log the first time, the problem caused was that PartThermalData was not being generated for the parts in question. The current code already checks for that situation and does not run FixedUpdate if PTD is null. That's the extent to which the problem will be dealt with by me.

[OzoneGrif]

Do you mean 7.0.3? 1.0.3 sounds like a KSP version #

I meant DRE 7.0.2 . I just updated to 7.0.3 and used it for a few flights without any issue. I guess the problems came from 7.0.2.

The new shields mass is probably less of an issue than their center of pressure, which can be offset, and probably SHOULD be getting offset. I can't remember if I already did that but it will be going into the next update.

that's cool, thank you !

[Yemo]

I don't know that they ever were truly massless, and if they were then I have to disown any responsibility for cleaning up after other mods. No part should EVER be massless as it can cause all manner of trouble. (The solution there is to not run mods that can inflict that kind of damage and the problems that it can create are not limited to DRE)

As I recall from looking at the log the first time, the problem caused was that PartThermalData was not being generated for the parts in question. The current code already checks for that situation and does not run FixedUpdate if PTD is null. That's the extent to which the problem will be dealt with by me.

Imho the main problem is, that the physicsless = 1 setting seems to be not taken into account by DeadlyReentry.

Physicsless parts have that flag set, because they are intended to be treated as part of the thing they are attached to, which is why they eg add their mass to the host part.

They should not be relevant for any physics calculations themselves, which is the whole idea behind the flag.

Ignored by stability, ignored by drag, ignored by heat...

There are no massless parts which do not also have that flag set.

The flag is how modders can tell other mods how the part is intended to be treated.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Yemo

[Starwaster]

that's cool, thank you !

FYI, my pass on the heat shields is complete. All have had their aerodynamics adjusted so as to be more stable tail first. (or heat shield first).

That will be in the next update.

Imho the main problem is, that the physicsless = 1 setting seems to be not taken into account by DeadlyReentry.

Physicsless parts have that flag set, because they are intended to be treated as part of the thing they are attached to, which is why they eg add their mass to the host part.

They should not be relevant for any physics calculations themselves, which is the whole idea behind the flag.

Ignored by stability, ignored by drag, ignored by heat...

There are no massless parts which do not also have that flag set.

The flag is how modders can tell other mods how the part is intended to be treated.

There are several misconceptions in the above statements regarding the flag in question (actually PhysicalSignificance)

It doesn't mean they are ignored for physics, just that physics is handled differently for them. Both drag and thermals are handled for them. Drag might be handled differently for them but they are not ignored.

Also the statement about massless parts is not relevant because there is no such thing as a massless part with the exception of mods that set mass to 0 (to which I say again, don't do it, it's wrong, regardless of how PhysicalSignificance is set). Certainly there are no stock parts that have mass = 0, and they work perfectly fine with DRE until someone goes mucking around with them and zeroes out their mass.

As to Deadly Reentry, this mod works WITH the new stock heating system. So if the stock heating system is handling heat for parts that are set to PhysicalSignificance.None (and let me be crystal clear: They definitely have thermals handled for them) then Deadly Reentry will be handling them as well.

- - - Updated - - -

Addendum to previous statements: DRE will impose a minimum of 1kg in its mass calculations starting next update.

Edit #2

To anyone affected by the issue involving massless parts, I will elaborate further, I can't consider that to be a bug in Deadly Reentry because the root cause is not in Deadly Reentry. As I've said before, DRE does not implement its own thermodynamic system. It modifies the existing stock thermo system that was introduced in KSP 1.0 and it relies on the existence of certain data called PartThermalData (that's the actual name of the class, I'll refer to it as PTD) and it is generated for every single part that exists in KSP regardless of whether it is marked as 'physicsless'

The absence of the PTD is what was causing the nullref errors for some players before. So I checked to make sure that the PTD was actually present (and not null) before moving forward with further thermal related code. But I was logging the error and that caused performance killing lag for players so I removed the error logging code. That and the aforementioned changes treating massless parts as having a minimum of 1kg of mass is really the best I can do. Bottom line is that if I don't have that PTD to work with then it's going to cause problems. And it didn't go missing because of a bug in Deadly Reentry. That happened somewhere in stock KSP where that data is generated.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Starwaster

[Gryphon]

I figure if you choose to run KSP with zero mass parts, why are you also using a mod intended to make KSP more realistic?

With that said, I think that enforcing 1 kg minimum for DRE calculations is the responsible thing to do.

[RomanCat]

Hi,

I would like raise an incompatibility between KW Rocketry 2.7 and DRE 7.0.3 (KSP Win32 1.0.2)

The game does not produce an error however it gets stuck on the loading screen on the following part:

KWRocketry/Parts/Areo/150mSRBTop/Part/KW2mSRBNoseCone

The loading screen still cycles between messages.

I have tried a fresh install with only these to mods and ModuleManager.2.6.5 and it is reproducible. The contains a lot of:

Serialization depth limit exceeded at 'ThermalLink'. There may be an object composition cycle in one or more of your serialized classes.

Log File: https://www.dropbox.com/s/th76vb8c6vd6fjy/KSP.zip?dl=0

Hi. I made patch for DRE.

DOWNLOAD PATCH

[Bruunz]

Hi. I made patch for DRE.

DOWNLOAD PATCH

Awesome, I'll give it try tonight when i get home and let you know the results. Thank you!

[Mighty1]

I am not sure if this is a DR or a FAR question, but I believe that my problem fits better with DR.

During lunch I have to keep my TWR at maximum of 1.3 as I approach the sound barrier. If I go any stronger my tanks (the empty ones) heat up and explode. Only when I get to 25-30 km height when the temperature starts dropping I can throttle up.

For temperature display I use Critical temperature gauge

My question is: Is this normal behavior or am I doing something wrong?

Edited May 27, 2015 by Mighty1
spelling and grammar

[RomanCat]

Awesome, I'll give it try tonight when i get home and let you know the results. Thank you!

Ok. Write me if you found bugs.

This 0.1 version patch.

[panzerwaffe044]

I am not sure if this is a DR or a FAR question, but I believe that my problem fits better with DR.

During lunch I have to keep my TWR at maximum of 1.3 as I approach the sound barrier. If I go any stronger my tanks (the empty ones) heat up and explode. Only when I get to 25-30 km height when the temperature starts dropping I can throttle up.

For temperature display I use Critical temperature gauge

My question is: Is this normal behavior or am I doing something wrong?

The same question! What's the best ascent profile for the recent version of DE? I'm a new player. Trying to maintain low speed and making a smooth gravity turn makes velocity vector fall down the horizon. Increasing thrust makes the rocket fall apart. Struts and fuel lines go first, that makes further flight almost impossible. I understand the physics of the process and how it works in real world, but can't figure out how to complete it in the game. Also try to build my rocket as aerodynamic as possible.

Shall I just go straight up to the upper atmosphere and then make a pitchover maneuver? AFAIK these parameters depend on the specifications of every vehicle (mass, TWR)...