[1.12.*] Deadly Reentry v7.9.0 The Barbie Edition, Aug 5th, 2021

[fallout2077]

@fallout2077-

Out of curiosity, which heat shields are you using? The stock ones, the ones from DRE, or the ablative shielding applied by DRE to the Mk 1 command pod? Or something entirely different?

(Starwaster--not trying to butt in, but I am wondering if he made the same mistake I did)

Since first experiencing the problem, I've only been using the Mk1 Command Pod. So, no additional heatshield aside from what DRE adds to the pod.

[FireFaced]

I have a question: Do the Big-S and Mk3 parts have heat shields or something of that sort? If so, DRE all the way!

[Starwaster]

Since first experiencing the problem, I've only been using the Mk1 Command Pod. So, no additional heatshield aside from what DRE adds to the pod.

I haven't been able to replicate your ascent issues. But, I'm also using Real Heat right now for DRE testing purposes and I think it tones down some of the early supersonic heating. Not sure if that's intentional so I don't know if it will keep on behaving that way, but it might help you with your launch issues. Otherwise, use the difficulty slider and turn things down a bit. Or raise conduction factor a bit. (lowering conduction factor is part of how I increased the effects of convection heating. It prevents heat from escaping into the rest of the craft)

I have a question: Do the Big-S and Mk3 parts have heat shields or something of that sort? If so, DRE all the way!

Not shields like the ablative kind, but I did try to pattern their behavior after the space shuttle tiles. There is an issue right now where their overheating gauges will light up fiercely and it's pretty alarming to see but if you keep your reentry shallow then you'll survive. (I might bump up skinMaxTemp just a bit to kill the gauges but if I do that too much then it renders DRE useless against spaceplanes)

TL;DR keep your spaceplane reentry shallow. You'll see them overheat badly anyway and you'll be all like ZOMGWTFBBQ KEVIN STARWASTER LIED TO ME THAT SUMBICH but then halfway across the planet you'll break through the clouds and your ship will start cooling off and you'll smack your chest a bit to try to restart your heart and everything will be ok.

[FireFaced]

TL;DR keep your spaceplane reentry shallow. You'll see them overheat badly anyway and you'll be all like ZOMGWTFBBQ KEVIN STARWASTER LIED TO ME THAT SUMBICH but then halfway across the planet you'll break through the clouds and your ship will start cooling off and you'll smack your chest a bit to try to restart your heart and everything will be ok.

LOLOL Okay, I'll do that... after I upgrade to Win 10

[eightiesboi]

Since first experiencing the problem, I've only been using the Mk1 Command Pod. So, no additional heatshield aside from what DRE adds to the pod.

Hmm... I think there *may* be a problem with what DRE is adding to the command pod. I made a reentry from 200km with a 40, 30, and 25 km PE, and my stock MK1 pod went up like a thing that burns rapidly when exposed to flame... you know, that thing.

Looking at the config for the Mk 1 Pod and comparing it to the config for a 1.25 shield, I see some differences, but I have no idea whether this might be a factor. Starwaster (or someone who understands what DRE configs actually do), would you please look at the DRE config settings for the Mk 1 pod and verify they are correct? One of them differs from the 1.25 heat shield by and order of magnitude (.001 to .01 for reentry conductivity)

[fallout2077]

I haven't been able to replicate your ascent issues. But, I'm also using Real Heat right now for DRE testing purposes and I think it tones down some of the early supersonic heating. Not sure if that's intentional so I don't know if it will keep on behaving that way, but it might help you with your launch issues. Otherwise, use the difficulty slider and turn things down a bit. Or raise conduction factor a bit. (lowering conduction factor is part of how I increased the effects of convection heating. It prevents heat from escaping into the rest of the craft.

Hey Starwaster, could I request a link for Real Heat? While googling it,I found two different versions of Real Heat. The first hasn't been updated since January of this year, but was from the official WIP thread. The other is a version updated today that was on a Realism Overhaul GitHub page. The first and older file is 2mb, whilst the second file is only 32kb. Thanks again.

[NathanKell]

Yeah, RealHeat's shock temperature can like 1/6th or lower than the stock shock temperature...

[Starwaster]

Hmm... I think there *may* be a problem with what DRE is adding to the command pod. I made a reentry from 200km with a 40, 30, and 25 km PE, and my stock MK1 pod went up like a thing that burns rapidly when exposed to flame... you know, that thing.

Looking at the config for the Mk 1 Pod and comparing it to the config for a 1.25 shield, I see some differences, but I have no idea whether this might be a factor. Starwaster (or someone who understands what DRE configs actually do), would you please look at the DRE config settings for the Mk 1 pod and verify they are correct? One of them differs from the 1.25 heat shield by and order of magnitude (.001 to .01 for reentry conductivity)

I'll look at it. Again.

But I very carefully crafted the Mk1's shielding and I'm happy with where it is. Remember it's meant to represent something like Mercury. First flight, sub-orbital to LKO. It's not meant to have the shielding of the add-ons

Still, you probably should have been able to survive a 200km reentry. Was FAR involved?

Hey Starwaster, could I request a link for Real Heat? While googling it,I found two different versions of Real Heat. The first hasn't been updated since January of this year, but was from the official WIP thread. The other is a version updated today that was on a Realism Overhaul GitHub page. The first and older file is 2mb, whilst the second file is only 32kb. Thanks again.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/127769-1-0-4-RealHeat-%28Minimalist%29-v1-1-July-29

[fallout2077]

I see that there is a new version of FAR. I'm hoping that this will be the solution I've been looking for.

Real Heat seems to have fixed my ascent and descent issues. The pod still heats up pretty high near the end of my ascent burn, as well as the fuel tank (probably pretty realistic outcomes of rocket ascent). So, all in all, thanks, Starwaster for sharing Real Heat and solving the problems I was experiencing!

Edited July 30, 2015 by fallout2077

[publicsafetydan]

What ever happened to the inflatable heat shield? The link you leave for a compatible one has not been updated in quite a few KSP versions. Anyway to get the old one in 1.0.4?

[Starwaster]

What ever happened to the inflatable heat shield? The link you leave for a compatible one has not been updated in quite a few KSP versions. Anyway to get the old one in 1.0.4?

In the thread for the deployable that I linked to, I posted a compatibility patch for non-DRE users and DRE itself has compatibility configs.

The original DRE inflatable is not coming back due to animation issues it had which causes its drag cubes not to update properly in KSP 1.x. Those same issues also prevent its thermal properties from updating as it expands. It is not within my power to fix at this time and nobody possessing the ability and skills has stepped forwards. One individual identified possible issues in it but never followed through on it.

So it languishes and will not be returning.

[eightiesboi]

I'll look at it. Again.

But I very carefully crafted the Mk1's shielding and I'm happy with where it is. Remember it's meant to represent something like Mercury. First flight, sub-orbital to LKO. It's not meant to have the shielding of the add-ons

Still, you probably should have been able to survive a 200km reentry. Was FAR involved?

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/127769-1-0-4-RealHeat-%28Minimalist%29-v1-1-July-29

Nope, no FAR. I was actually doing tests on another heat shield (Angel-125's M.O.L.E., which was definitely out-of-date to the new thermo models) and when it went up so did the heat shield on my Mk 1.

When you get a chance.... no hurry.... my new career hasn't even sent a Munar fly-by yet. Lol!

[Starwaster]

Nope, no FAR. I was actually doing tests on another heat shield (Angel-125's M.O.L.E., which was definitely out-of-date to the new thermo models) and when it went up so did the heat shield on my Mk 1.

When you get a chance.... no hurry.... my new career hasn't even sent a Munar fly-by yet. Lol!

I don't understand what you're telling me about the MOLE. Are you saying that when the MOLE heat shield failed that the Mk1 pod exploded at the same time?

Also, how does just the Mk1 by itself behave in reentry? Just that, nothing else attached. (other than its chute of course)

EDIT: I just had a look at the MOLE and put it through its paces. When the 'backseat' part is added, it strips the Mk1pod of its ablative shield, down to 0.001. I don't even know what module he's doing it from

This is a MOLE issue, please take it up with Angel125

Edited July 31, 2015 by Starwaster

[eightiesboi]

I don't understand what you're telling me about the MOLE. Are you saying that when the MOLE heat shield failed that the Mk1 pod exploded at the same time?

Also, how does just the Mk1 by itself behave in reentry? Just that, nothing else attached. (other than its chute of course)

EDIT: I just had a look at the MOLE and put it through its paces. When the 'backseat' part is added, it strips the Mk1pod of its ablative shield, down to 0.001. I don't even know what module he's doing it from

This is a MOLE issue, please take it up with Angel125

Awesome... thank you for figuring it out! Repped again...

Or not...

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Starwaster again"

Edited July 31, 2015 by eightiesboi

[Astraph]

I'm having a small issue (might as well be my lack of skill, therefore I'm not calling it a bug) in 3.7 Kerbin resize. I just can't find a reasonable reentry profile when returning from a rather low orbit of 250 km AP. When I aim at a shallow reentry at ~55 km, the 1.25 heatshield (100 ablator units) burns down pretty fast (reentry effects appear just after crossing the 70 km atmosphere border), and gets vaporised while still travelling at >4 km/s. Truth be said, the ablator reduction rate gets pretty slow at the end, so I reckon I might be pretty close to the correct profile. Anyway, I've tried several other profiles (with PE ranging from 25-45 km), and they all ended with my 1.25 heatshield getting vaporised in a matter of seconds.

As mentioned before, I'm using the 3.7 Kerbin resize plugin and FAR. Any ideas on how to proceed? I don't know if DRE's compatibile with planet resize mods (I know it uses a separate config for RSS), or should I just keep trying until I hit the correct PE?

[NathanKell]

The stock KSP thermal settings are designed to make reentry on Kerbin (2000m/s) nearly as hot as reentry on Earth. So if you have a less tiny planet, you need to tone down the thermo settings.

[Starwaster]

That's one answer.

Another is that stronger shields might be needed for mods with larger planets / faster reentry speeds.

Keep in mind that I set things up so that shields burn up faster to keep things challenging and players on their toes.

Maybe I could do an MM patch for this 3.7x mod but I haven't tried it, haven't seen it and don't know anything about it.

[fallout2077]

That's one answer.

Another is that stronger shields might be needed for mods with larger planets / faster reentry speeds.

Keep in mind that I set things up so that shields burn up faster to keep things challenging and players on their toes.

Maybe I could do an MM patch for this 3.7x mod but I haven't tried it, haven't seen it and don't know anything about it.

Does the ablative shielding really only begin to wear off when reentering the atmosphere at speeds exceeding 2.5km/s? I ask because, so far, I only deplete about 4 or 5 points away from the shielding on the Mk1 Command Pod when reentering from an 85km Kerbin orbit. Now, I hate to sound extremely irritating, but I either have too hard of a time with the mod (you remember my griping not so long ago), or too easy of a time (as in now). So, that is why I ask if the shielding really only begins to eat away when reentering from speeds that relate to, say, returning from the Mun. So, if I am coming across as somebody who just can't be pleased, then I apologize. I just want to know if there is a speed when reentry really begins being "deadly".

[Starwaster]

The shield begins to ablate when its temperature exceeds a certain threshold. Which is 500 for pretty much every heat shield that DRE provides or alters.

What speed controls is shockwave temperature. For a 2.5km/s that's ~2500K (temperature is roughly your velocity in meters per second)

How much heat is transferred is linked to atmospheric density. (so a high velocity at lower altitudes is going to have more impact than the same velocity at higher altitudes)

Some points to consider:

You shouldn't think in terms of easier or harder. You either did it right and you lived or you did it wrong and you died. There's not much gray area.

Your shield should be depleting more than that. Real Heat or some other mod could be modifying physics settings or it could be something you changed if you've edited anything recently.

Do your unshielded parts burn up from that same 85km orbit at 2.5km/s? If they are then for the most part things are working well aside from the shield.

Do you want things hotter? Increase difficulty to its maximum.

Granted, it's only 120% but if that's not hot enough then in the thermal menu under Physics (alt-F12) either reduce conductivity or increase convection factor until things are hot enough for you.

(low conduction means that your skin can't transfer heat as fast to the interior. Convection makes atmospheric contributions faster and stronger, including reentry)

You have options here, you just need to start using them.

[Ser]

fallout2077, Do you have RealHeat installed? I've noticed that it fights DRE reducing the reentry temperatures because it is configured for the RSS scale, as far as I know. I had to set Convection factor to 40x for the reentry had some sense. But when I removed it reentries became impossible even from the lowest orbit, the ablation just get eated at higher atmosphere and the whole thing blows up at 35000m (haven't tried that with a single pod though).

Starwaster, I have noticed a strange behaviour: my mk1 pod starts losing ablation at the start of reentry having 300K of skin temp. But if I turn my vessel to have engine in front and the pod headed backwards, it stops losing ablation even getting heated to 400k. Is DRE or something else controlling that?

Edited August 3, 2015 by Ser

[fallout2077]

The shield begins to ablate when its temperature exceeds a certain threshold. Which is 500 for pretty much every heat shield that DRE provides or alters.

What speed controls is shockwave temperature. For a 2.5km/s that's ~2500K (temperature is roughly your velocity in meters per second)

How much heat is transferred is linked to atmospheric density. (so a high velocity at lower altitudes is going to have more impact than the same velocity at higher altitudes)

Some points to consider:

You shouldn't think in terms of easier or harder. You either did it right and you lived or you did it wrong and you died. There's not much gray area.

Your shield should be depleting more than that. Real Heat or some other mod could be modifying physics settings or it could be something you changed if you've edited anything recently.

Do your unshielded parts burn up from that same 85km orbit at 2.5km/s? If they are then for the most part things are working well aside from the shield.

Do you want things hotter? Increase difficulty to its maximum.

Granted, it's only 120% but if that's not hot enough then in the thermal menu under Physics (alt-F12) either reduce conductivity or increase convection factor until things are hot enough for you.

(low conduction means that your skin can't transfer heat as fast to the interior. Convection makes atmospheric contributions faster and stronger, including reentry)

You have options here, you just need to start using them.

If you mean "unshielded parts" as in jettisoned fuel tanks, then yes, they most certainly burn up. Everything connected to the pod, however, stays intact throughout reentry. The only mods that I can think would actually affect physics are FAR, DRE, and Real Heat (per your suggestion). I will have to try adjusting those settings that you referred to, starting with the simple matter of adjusting difficulty. If that's not good enough for me, then I will start tweaking with the other settings. Thank you once again for your assistance.

And Ser, yes, I do have Real Heat installed. It was kind of a necessity, because I was experiencing extreme heating during ascent and descent (in fact, 99% of the time I couldn't make it into space as a result of the killer heating). And during descent, I would blow up by 40-50km from the surface. So, Starwaster's suggestion that I try out Real Heat was the solution to those problems, and reentry returned to the same standard experience that I've been accustomed to since I started using DRE.

[Starwaster]

Starwaster, I have noticed a strange behaviour: my mk1 pod starts losing ablation at the start of reentry having 300K of skin temp.

But if I turn my vessel to have engine in front and the pod headed backwards, it stops losing ablation even getting heated to 400k. Is DRE or something else controlling that?

I don't know, need to see what you're talking about? (what engine...?)

And yes, if it's heating up to its ablation temperature (which I gave earlier as 500K.... which might not be right, have to see what I last set it to) and it's not ablating then something else has probably changed it.

[NdranC]

Any idea why deadly reentry might be causing my parachutes to remain like this when i deploy them? I have a list of 80 mods installed, I don't have RealChutes or FAR, the only thing that messes with parachutes that i can think of is stock bug fixes, stock plus and ven's parts revamp.

Edited August 4, 2015 by NdranC

[Starwaster]

Any idea why deadly reentry might be causing my parachutes to remain like this when i deploy them? I have a list of 80 mods installed, I don't have RealChutes or FAR, the only thing that messes with parachutes that i can think of is stock bug fixes, stock plus and ven's parts revamp.

Deadly Reentry has nothing to do with parachutes anymore and even when it did, it didn't resize them.

[NdranC]

Deadly Reentry has nothing to do with parachutes anymore and even when it did, it didn't resize them.

It seems it's some sort of weird interaction between Ven's Stock Parts Revamp and Deadly Reentry. I was removing all the mods one by one from my list and I hit up DR first which removed the problem, so I incorrectly assumed it might be the cause. Thanks for clearing it.