Career disapointemnt

[unWinged]

First disclaimer: I know that this is first implementation of Career Mode, and things can change.

I was very happy when 0.22 came out with Career mode, but when I started playing it I was disappointed...

First thing is how parts are arranged on tech tree.

You start with only very few parts so you have little room for design.

And you start with sending Kerbals instead of probes.

I would prefer to send probes first for some stupid reasons like safety, and wanting to keep kerbals alive. I know that the way it is now is more "kerbal" but I still would like my way.

Second: I would like also to have to maintain budget.

Fight for money send commercial missions to earn more money to have enough to send science missions.

I know that first thing can be easily modded into the game with changing parts placement in tech-tree, and I think of doing it someday if there will be no official solution for this.

Second thing may be done with mods, but I can't mod... There was mod for this but it died...

I would like to read some opinions on that, maybe I'm not alone...

[Ralathon]

First thing is how parts are arranged on tech tree.

You start with only very few parts so you have little room for design.

Intentional. The career mode is designed so it doesn't overwhelm you with billions of parts and functions so it smooths out the difficulty curve a bit. If you want free design without limitations you'll either have to unlock the tree or play sandbox.

And you start with sending Kerbals instead of probes.

I would prefer to send probes first for some stupid reasons like safety, and wanting to keep kerbals alive. I know that the way it is now is more "kerbal" but I still would like my way.

Gameplay > Realism. For a probe you need charge, energy generation, SAS and separate science modules. For a capsule you just need a kerbal (which is included). It makes sense to get the easy option before getting you complex one. When you do get probe cores you can use them to save significant weight at the cost of extra complexity.

Second: I would like also to have to maintain budget.

Fight for money send commercial missions to earn more money to have enough to send science missions.

That's something that'll likely be included in the future. Until then you can play with the mission controller mod, which adds exactly what you propose.

I would like to read some opinions on that, maybe I'm not alone...

You're probably not alone. But your reasoning is very poorly thought out and this discussion has been done to death.

[merlinux]

This is alpha, and their first shot at career. The tech tree is likely to be revised and the budget will be implemented and loads of other stuff too...

Anyway I am not disappointed, enjoy the new challenges. I do however think that it needs to be bettered and I have no doubt it will.

[NASAFanboy]

Intentional. The career mode is designed so it doesn't overwhelm you with billions of parts and functions so it smooths out the difficulty curve a bit. If you want free design without limitations you'll either have to unlock the tree or play sandbox.

Gameplay > Realism. For a probe you need charge, energy generation, SAS and separate science modules. For a capsule you just need a kerbal (which is included). It makes sense to get the easy option before getting you complex one. When you do get probe cores you can use them to save significant weight at the cost of extra complexity.

That's something that'll likely be included in the future. Until then you can play with the mission controller mod, which adds exactly what you propose.

You're probably not alone. But your reasoning is very poorly thought out and this discussion has been done to death.

Don't be that mean. He's a newcomer.

Otherwise, I would somewhat agree with OP, especially wth the probe thing.

No, we don't need SAS.

I believe we should start out with the little batteries, a probe core and a parachute plus a antenna. That's it. Run it the old way, wit limited batteries.

I prefer realism over all.

Edited October 31, 2013 by NASAFanboy

[SRV Ron]

If you study the history of Kerbal Space Exploration, they started out with manned flights before advancing their tech to use probes. Thus, the reason probes are not in use first. Fact are, they stay using the limited 1.25 fuel cans and limited engines until the 3 man capsule gets unlocked. Skippers and Mainsails remain a ways off.

Anyhow, there are now probes with science stations on Duna and Eve although the one that landed in the toxic sea has lost its solar panels.

[Sirrobert]

Don't be that mean. He's a newcomer.

Otherwise, I would somewhat agree with OP, especially wth the probe thing.

No, we don't need SAS.

I believe we should start out with the little batteries, a probe core and a parachute plus a antenna. That's it. Run it the old way, wit limited batteries.

I prefer realism over all.

You have a funny definition of mean. He's just pointing out arguments.

And how the hell are you going to science with a probe core?

[DonLorenzo]

I've been playing with economic restrictions through a mod and am enjoying that tremendously. In fact at this point I've hit a bit of a rough patch, where I need to unlock certain key science nodes to be able to complete missions yet do not have funds to spare. See my signature for the 'Mission a day' series if you want to have a look

[FITorion]

We'll for your first...

If it was your way then it wouldn't be very historically accurate. We sent men first. We didn't have the computers to send probes first. We had ground tests too ... and fatalities during those tests... I don't think not having probes at the beginning is in any way wrong.

But I wouldn't mind having multiple tech trees. Rockets, Planes, Rovers, Probes Then you could put your points where you'd like.

For your second. It's coming. Probably in .24 as .23 seems to be devoted mostly to further refining R&D.

[NASAFanboy]

You have a funny definition of mean. He's just pointing out arguments.

And how the hell are you going to science with a probe core?

Take a probe.

Spam it with batteries.

Attach parachute.

Win!

[Exposure]

We'll for your first...

If it was your way then it wouldn't be very historically accurate. We sent men first. We didn't have the computers to send probes first. We had ground tests too ... and fatalities during those tests... I don't think not having probes at the beginning is in any way wrong.

I like the current tech tree from an ease for new players viewpoint, but from a realism viewpoint...

[Superfluous J]

We sent men first.

No we didn't

Anyway, I've been having a blast with the tech tree. I was pretty bored with KSP before 0.22 and I am happy as a clam* doing the exact stuff I was bored with before, because there's some goal to achieve.

* A happy clam, of course. Not an unhappy one.

[unWinged]

What I wrote in OP was not reasoning. It was only my opinion and what I think about it. I think that Squad put some heavy thinking into Career Mode. It just not met what I wuld like to.

Gameplay > Realism. For a probe you need charge, energy generation, SAS and separate science modules. For a capsule you just need a kerbal (which is included). It makes sense to get the easy option before getting you complex one. When you do get probe cores you can use them to save significant weight at the cost of extra complexity.

For me current implementation lowers my fun. I don't expect tons of parts in first tree node. I would like it like NASAFanboy wrote:

I believe we should start out with the little batteries, a probe core and a parachute plus a antenna. That's it. Run it the old way, wit limited batteries.

I prefer realism over all.

I think that maybe some difficulty setting would help.

One setting kept like it is done now.

Other with probes first and maybe limited budget.

[FITorion]

I like the current tech tree from an ease for new players viewpoint, but from a realism viewpoint...

And what science did it do? It sent a beeping radio signal. That's all. In game terms it was a piece of debris. No way of controlling it at all. It does not compare to probe cores.

[Flowz0r]

A Kerbal equivalent for Sputnik would be an empty fuselage with 4 antennae. There's a huge difference between proving that you can put something in orbit by throwing a chunk of beeping metal there, and having a remote controlled probe flying your spacecraft to the moon.

[haltux]

The problem with probes is that the way they are implemented in KSP is inconsistant. When you operate a manned vehicle, you ARE the pilot. When you operate a probe, you are what?

Operating a probe in real time vaguely makes sense if you consider that in the game you ARE the AI that operate the rocket (which in my opinion is very convoluted).

And it does vaguely make sense if it is a high tech probe with advanced A.I. embedded.

If you are in career mode, you start at the beginning of the space age and your probe should be able to read sensors and store data, maybe to run basic preprogrammed control (run engine at a given time...), but certainly not to do whatever the player want.

So what would make sense would be to give the ability to built probe rockets, but not to control them in the same way we control the manned vehicles. At the beginning of the tech tree we would have no control, or just basic pre-programmed time manoeuvres. Later you could send orders to the probe, that would not go faster than light speed.

[Sirrobert]

Take a probe.

Spam it with batteries.

Attach parachute.

Win!

Awesome. You just got 5 science points. Now what? Are we now unlocking the commandpod so we can do some real science?

What I wrote in OP was not reasoning. It was only my opinion and what I think about it. I think that Squad put some heavy thinking into Career Mode. It just not met what I wuld like to.

I think that maybe some difficulty setting would help.

One setting kept like it is done now.

Other with probes first and maybe limited budget.

Obviously the budget is coming. What, did you thought this was the final version of the career?

And go mod if you don't like the techtree. Kerbals before probes, Squad has spoken (and real life. You can learn very little from a probe. Real science is done by real astronauts (or kerbalnauts)

[Superfluous J]

Sputnik did a little more than merely send beeps. It measured the ionosphere and helped us map the density of the upper atmosphere.

What exactly did Yuri Gagarin do in his trip that Sputnik didn't do?

(Note: This is not a dig on Yuri Gagarin. He had a set made of chiseled marble just for agreeing to get in that death trap)

[Kialar]

My five cents:

a) It's a game. It should be plausible. But I proclaim: No dictatorship of realism!

I agree in one point read above: Playing a vessel with probe core or a vessel with crew is exactly no difference in basic game play.

c) Gaming is about fun. For me it is more fun to bring a Kerbal into space. That makes it way more easy for me to pretend "I DID IT! ME! MYSELF! AND I!". Bring up a Kerbal and bring it home again just makes me feel happy. Therefore I would be very unhappy, if I was forced to do the first missions in career with a probe.

d) cetero censeo: kerbala ad astra!

OK. It's just 4 cent. ^^

[NASAFanboy]

Awesome. You just got 5 science points. Now what? Are we now unlocking the commandpod so we can do some real science?

Yes. You have read my mind.

Squad hasn't made its decision yet.

I support difficulty levels for the tech tree. One level could have probes start out, with higher tech tree costs, while the other remains the same, along with a easy difficulty.

Probes : Hard

Current One : Moderate

Easy?? : Easy

Edited October 31, 2013 by NASAFanboy

[Sirrobert]

My five cents:

a) It's a game. It should be plausible. But I proclaim: No dictatorship of realism!

I agree in one point read above: Playing a vessel with probe core or a vessel with crew is exactly no difference in basic game play.

c) Gaming is about fun. For me it is more fun to bring a Kerbal into space. That makes it way more easy for me to pretend "I DID IT! ME! MYSELF! AND I!". Bring up a Kerbal and bring it home again just makes me feel happy. Therefore I would be very unhappy, if I was forced to do the first missions in career with a probe.

d) cetero censeo: kerbala ad astra!

OK. It's just 4 cent. ^^

When I fed that line to google translate it thought it was swedish Than I took out kerbala and it switched to Gaulish

Anyway: Amen

When I finally got Jeb back from my first attempt at a Munar flyby, he got caught back into the Mun's SOI and slingshotted out towards Minmus, with almost no fuel left, and running low on power. When I finally got him back he ofcourse landed in the mountains, lander fell over, and fell apart. But he was alive! I threw a party for him right away.

Can't get that with a probe

[unWinged]

Sputnik done little, but Explorer 1 did more. And it was a probe.

I know that real science is made by astronauts. But first man made objects in space, on Moon, Mars, Venus etc are probes. And first things to do science off-earth were probes. And for my own amusement I would like to do it similar in my KSP game.

This is just my point of view, I would like to have it in game. Maybe as an option. If not I will make it into the game myself, or maybe somebody else will. Still it would be nice for my and people alike if it would come as optional stock or something.

[Kialar]

Maybe there just should be two starting options.

The carefull human probe approach with first tech available is a basic probe core

The badass-what-the-heck-is-there-wanna-see kerbal approach with first tech available as is

[AmpsterMan]

At first I didn't like not having a probe or decouplers in the first few tiers. However, I think I've grown to understand the reasoning. It is a way of being a tutorial to newer players without exactly being a tutorial. In that sense, probes are more complicated in that ironically they require resources whereas Kerbals do not.

That said, I like the fact that the tree is editable for modders to allow more experienced users to change the game to their liking.

[El wonso]

I hope current tech tree is going to be changed (sending kerbals that can EVA before discovering probes probes is wtf plus I'd like to see discovering more than just parts). I also hope that tech tree is barely a start for career mode.

PS to be honest I got bored after Minmus landing.

[Sirrobert]

I hope current tech tree is going to be changed (sending kerbals that can EVA before discovering probes probes is wtf plus I'd like to see discovering more than just parts). I also hope that tech tree is barely a start for career mode.

PS to be honest I got bored after Minmus landing.

Than go change it. Noone's stopping you

PS: than go land on other planets