(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Norcalplanner]

Norcalplanner: Congratulations, you have finished a JOOL-5 Kethane Expedition!

This is nice that you named the ships after Milne's characters. And I love your flag!

That was a good idea that you can change the cargo on the lander so it can bring fuel to the main ship, or bring the science module. That was funny that you went back to Tylo and landed once again - I think nobody did that before! And good job with the scanner probes and the remaining orbital bases too. Maybe the only downside of the mission was the need for many refueling trips, wasn't?

That was a thorough Kethane Expedition, well done!

Thanks. It was a few too many refueling trips - in spite of the somewhat clever multi-role aspects of most of the ship, it was still a pretty brute force approach, with the lander around 100 tons fully fueled.

Now that I've had a chance to reflect, I've made a few observations:

1. MechJeb laid in some pretty bad courses - I was generally much happier with my manual course plots, which arrived at the target with lower differential velocity and reduced expenditure of fuel.

2. TAC fuel balancer helped a lot. It’s not perfect, but it helped make sure that no rocket engine ran out fuel prematurely, which was especially helpful on Tylo.

3. The trip back home still took over 2 years. I need to investigate ways to reduce that time frame - landed back at Kerbin with several thousand m/s delta V in reserve, so we had fuel that could have been burned to speed the return.

4. All the mining and refueling got a bit tiresome.

5. I need to be much smarter in how I spend my fuel. It may be worthwhile to have a small nuclear tug to move Pooh Bear to a different moon instead of moving the whole ship.

6. I should really look at putting a ship or a fuel depot in orbit between moons, such as between Vall and Tylo.

7. It worked well to turn off MechJeb at times for landings, especially on Pol and Bop. I learned my lesson from the previous Jool challenge trip.

8. Pooh Bear probably could have been a bit smaller. Moving around a 100 ton lander used a lot of fuel, even with LV-Ns. There’s probably a good 60 ton version that can be made with 4 or 6 LV-Ns and 2 LVT-30s.

9. I was generally pleased with the lifter design, which was fairly compact and efficient (16.9% payload mass fraction) for the size of ship being sent up. Lots of SRBs were used, since they’re very cost effective in 0.24 career mode. No thrust plates were used. Burning some of the Milne’s engines towards the end of the ascent seemed to work well, especially since they could be refueled from the last lifter stack after a stable orbit was achieved.

10. I still had a little bit of Kessler syndrome - I forgot to add a probe core to Rabbit’s last lifter stack, so it remained in orbit around Kerbin as debris, even though it had enough fuel left to de-orbit itself. No other debris was generated.

11. I was proud of the footprint left in the Jool system by this single ship - five manned fuel depots, each with some science and comm gear; four kethane scanners, also with science and comm gear; and one satellite around Jool with multiple science experiments and comm gear.

12. It works much better if you wait for sunlight before trying to visit anomalies.

13. The 8 landing struts, a late addition to Pooh Bear, provided some needed stability. The ship probably would have fallen over on Laythe and/or Pol if they weren’t there. Majority of the weight was still resting on the LV-N engine bells.

All in all, an enjoyable and challenging experience. I hope people enjoy the photos and whatnot.

[CakeNinjaProductions]

Well. I got to Pol. 3 down, 2 to go.

[grockstar124]

After about 2 weeks back from vacation, I forgot about the challange. :3 But I am finally working on it again!

And apperantly, I deleted the safe file for the project... D: Oh well, I was still making a probe design to test out the ship.

Now, I am gonna work on some probe launches, 4 of them, 1 for the asteroid moons, (Bop and Pol), 1 for the "normal" moons (Vall and Tylo), 1 for Laythe, and 1 will attempt to land on ALL of them, probably being launched from a "beta" mother ship, while the others will be launched with standard rockets. This is to help complete a manned lander design, and learn a small bit about the moons, as they have only be seen via telescope. More details later!

[Mesklin]

Let me introduce ultralight Jool-5 ship "Jool wand"

Mass on launchpad - 5.433 t

Details - 177

One ion engine, one turbojet engine, one Jeb aboard, no parachutes at all

Flight path - Kerbin KSC -> Laythe -> Tylo -> Vall -> Bop -> Pol -> Minmus -> Kerbin KSC (no empty rounds around Sol, direct transfer to Jool from Kerbin)

Flag planted on each bodies (also space kraken on Bop visited)

(for details click picture)

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Think I'e got that Tylo mess sorted now...

and wow, Mesklin, raising the stakes even higher!

[Ziv]

Think I'e got that Tylo mess sorted now...

... but you changed your Tylo lander during the mission! This is not allowed by the rules, especially because your lander's mass changed significantly. I'm sorry but I can't accept this mission.

(and your mission log is too chaotic anyway. I don't feel like I'm looking at a well-thought and executed mission timeline but a lot of ship iterations and a lot of hyperedits here and there...)

Edited August 9, 2014 by Ziv

[Ziv]

Let me introduce ultralight Jool-5 ship "Jool wand"

Mass on launchpad - 5.433 t

Details - 177

One ion engine, one turbojet engine, one Jeb aboard, no parachutes at all

Flight path - Kerbin KSC -> Laythe -> Tylo -> Vall -> Bop -> Pol -> Minmus -> Kerbin KSC (no empty rounds around Sol, direct transfer to Jool from Kerbin)

Flag planted on each bodies (also space kraken on Bop visited)

http://i.imgur.com/AX61zeI.jpg

(for details click picture)

Mesklin: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 Low-mass Challenge with an incredible 5.433 tons and so you became the number one there!

Awesome, I really loved many of your solutions! First, getting into a highly eccentric orbit and so timing the best departure is a really great idea. Landing with the Jet engine on Laythe (and using the EVA BackPack to get into orbit) is awesome too!

I'm sure the additional xenon which was needed to push it there had lower mass than a rocket-driven Laythe lander. So this was a really well-thought twist. Maybe this was the main advantage over the other entries.

The ion-lander looks good too, but maybe you went out of energy sometomes, didn't you? That two 2x3 solar panel is not enough for a 100% throttle for the ion drive (I saw you had many batteries too). It's good that you did not release the gears, this way it looks more natural. The RCS thrusters are just for visuals?

And you landed on the Kraken?? Is it solid since 0.24? (last time I walked through of it)

The Minmus landing was a nice addition. I saw you used your spare fuel only so that's just about 0.01 tons there (your safety deposit I guess).

And glider-landing the pod with wings is also a new and beautiful idea.

Well done, that was an awesome mission with a lot of great solution!!!

ps: which version did you use? I wrote 0.24 but let me know if it was something else.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Ziv

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Aww damn, back to the drawing board then

still, I know what to do now... might even be able to do it in my current .24 Career, as I have the Jool, Bop and Pol orbit/explore missions already...

[Mesklin]

Ziv, Not any problem with energy on my lander, it has two 2x3 panel, one 1x6 (like tail) and several small solar panels, it is almost enough to provide energy on Dune and more close to Sol. Out of Dune orbit energy in batteries enough for smooth landing on any body, including Vall (all landing time on Vall I used full thrust and landed without any problem). I used gears on lander for 2 purposes: in open state it can work like a safety device if your surface approach speed is too high, also from time to time lander can stuck to surface (some surface bug, I am thinking) and can not take off with TWR > 1 (short press G button usually eliminate this problem). And yes, RCS thrusters on ion lander are just for visual purposes, it looks like eyes above big mouth (Um, um, I like to eat kerbonauts )

After entering in Kerbin SOI I had on board 398 units of xenon (almost full small canister). Theoretically it is enough for reach Mun orbit, land/return to orbit and then return to Kerbin, but I was already full with docking operations and I decided to spent this fuel completely uneconomic way.

Yes, Kraken is solid in version 0.24.2, not any problems with walking on it.

I used version 0.24.2

[merendel]

wow mesklin that mission was just insane. Well done. I've been kicking around the idea of doing a jool 5 and then saw that someone had done it on 5 tons and wouldnt have believed it without the pics'

[NecroBones]

Mesklin: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 Low-mass Challenge with an incredible 5.433 tons and so you became the number one there!

Wow, congrats!

[Luovahulluus]

I'm planning a Jebediah-level science collection mission, and I'd like to have a little clarification to the rules.

"- There's funding for one main ship only so all the crew, lander(s) and other stuff has to go to Jool as one big ship."

My Laythe plane is capable of reaching the orbit in Kerbin too. Is it ok if I attach it to my "big ship" on Kerbin orbit and then continue on to Jool as one? Having a plane on top of a rocket messes up the aerodynamics and makes the rocket really difficult to steer. Also it would save funds as I don't have to have quite as many boosters on my main rocket. Getting a mobile lab and five material labs and goo containers in the orbit makes the rocket quite big already...

Using Procedural Wings was ok, right?

[Ziv]

My Laythe plane is capable of reaching the orbit in Kerbin too. Is it ok if I attach it to my "big ship" on Kerbin orbit and then continue on to Jool as one? Having a plane on top of a rocket messes up the aerodynamics and makes the rocket really difficult to steer. Also it would save funds as I don't have to have quite as many boosters on my main rocket. Getting a mobile lab and five material labs and goo containers in the orbit makes the rocket quite big already...

Using Procedural Wings was ok, right?

Sure, you can use as many launches from Kerbin surface to Kerbin orbit as you want. So you can attach your plane too (just show images about all the launches).

Hm, I don't know Procedural Wings but if they are similar to the stock wings in terms of lift/weight ratio then they are okay.

[merendel]

Hm, I don't know Procedural Wings but if they are similar to the stock wings in terms of lift/weight ratio then they are okay.

They were prety close last time I used that mod. Main advantage of them was you could make 1 big wing that is solid instead of haveing the flopy 30 part wing of self dissassembly makeing large aircraft feasable without tons of struts. secondary advantage was you could make wings that actualy looked like a wing instead of a crazy quilt of misshapen parts in a vague wing shape.

[Ziv]

Yeah, in that case Procedural Wings are accepted. Also B9 wings too, if they are similar.

[Vlk]

My entry (first level):

Javascript is disabled. View full album

- Which game versions did you use?

0.24.2

- What mods did you use, if any?

just for the planning, i used hyperedit. otherwise, none

- How many launches was needed to start your mission from Kerbal?

6

- How many refueling did you do during the mission, how much and where?

0, during the mission

- Did you bring a Living Quarter (Hitch-hiker's Storage) for the guys during the long journey?

Yes, science lab too

- Did you bring additional stuff like satellites, rovers, etc?

no

awesome challange, btw

[CakeNinjaProductions]

Finally got this done...

I cheated this one too.

I am sorry to admit that I cheated on this one.

I used 0.24, with Kerbal Alarm Clock. It was all one launch, no refueling.

Edited August 22, 2014 by CakeNinjaProductions

[Ziv]

My entry (first level):

http://imgur.com/a/TjDW0

- Which game versions did you use?

0.24.2

- What mods did you use, if any?

just for the planning, i used hyperedit. otherwise, none

- How many launches was needed to start your mission from Kerbal?

6

- How many refueling did you do during the mission, how much and where?

0, during the mission

- Did you bring a Living Quarter (Hitch-hiker's Storage) for the guys during the long journey?

Yes, science lab too

- Did you bring additional stuff like satellites, rovers, etc?

no

awesome challange, btw

Vlk: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 Challenge on the 1st Level!

Hmm, you brought a Mobile Lab and landed five different Kerbals on the moons... if you would have brought a Goo and a Science Jr. then you could have gone for Jebediah's Level... if you leave your main ship in orbit between Vall and Tylo, you could have changed Jebediah to an other Kerbal for the Bop and then for the Pol landing, why didn't you attempt that?

But anyway, I liked your mission, the Laythe landing was perfect and that little tug worked really well. And if you don't put your main ship into low Tylo orbit but use a tug to get there too then you could have save some fuel and weight.

I liked that you used nukes for the Tylo/Vall lander, and landing with the nuke tug on top of the lander at Bop and Pol was funny!

I also liked the us of sepraton to slow down the touchdown at Kerbin! Nice Soyuz-style solution, I didn't see this before here!

Well done, thank you for participating, you gained the JOOL-5 Badge!

[Ziv]

Finally got this done...

http://youtu.be/Fd3i0kisbSI

I used 0.24, with Kerbal Alarm Clock. It was all one launch, no refueling.

CakeNinjaProductions: Nice videos! I liked as your Kerbals got on the ship before launch! And wow, you used a lot of large SAS module!! You were really harsh with your Kerbals who were sitting in space during all the mission!

That's nice that you used only one mk1 for all the landings, nice modular lander solutions. But that's not really efficient that you went to Pol, Bop and Vall from low Laythe orbit because this way you had to leave Laythe and get back there all the time. It would have been easier if you leave Laythe SOI and park your main ship in orbit between say Laythe and Vall. That was fun as you jumped out during the landing at Bop!

...but when you started to return from a 48km Bop orbit to a low Laythe orbit with that little fuel left only and you wrote that "forgot to record that last bit" then I got suspicious and built your ship to simulate how is it possible. And it turned out that it is impossible, because you had about 280-320 m/s delta-V, and it's about 600 m/s to get a catch with Laythe SOI ...if you start from a low inclination, but it's more if Bop is on higher at the departure time. And at Laythe you still have to get to low orbit and dock too. So I'm sorry but I can't accept this entry.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Ziv

[Pamynx]

Here is my first try for the Jool5 challenge, and first travel to the Joolian system.

We went to the beach on Laythe ! Well Jeb' only, his friends visited less .... places...

One single "kerbal style" launch : If it does not reach orbit => MORE BOOSTERS !

An interplanetary ship in my style : a cage of fuel tanks attached to each other and some nuke on one side.

Result : it takes off, it is laggy. I need to think about keeping things simple...

So the cigar shaped ship from top to bootom consists in : a plane for Laythe, a mother ship with crew cabin and, attached to it, 4 ionic mini landers, then a lander for Vall and another for Tylo.

Once I took off I figured out that the plane cockpit was not empty... One seat will be missing for the travel back.

Well I am supposed to have plenty of Xenon, so the stowaway will have the pleasure to go back home with one of the mini landers, he will have plenty of time, alone, to sew a parachute.

Solar panels deployed, all nuke engines ahead full, to infinity and beyond (With a little stop on Jool plz) !

http://imgur.com/a/sRxzp/embed

All is going well...

The aerobraking around Jool was a little bit to fast in term of warp, so I had to slow down manually.

This sent me to Laythe atmosphere for a new aerobrake.

After kicking Munzer out of the plane cockpit, Jeb' separates it from the main ship. The plane continues its aerobrake spiral while the mother ship parks itself on a safe orbit.

I was a little but scared when it was time to land, I saw no island and the night was beginning to fall... But I finally managed to land before dusk. Jeb' is on the beach !

The mother ship leaves Laythe orbit to park between Tylo and Vall, the tanks are dry, I detach it and separate the landers (Back to real time, lag is over !). And I start placing my landers on their target orbit.

This happenned (almost) without problem. Indeed after the parking around Pol, I could not find my mother ship... Reload last save... Hoho during a warp it encountered Tylo... I fixed that and let the dry tanks crash on the big stone.

http://imgur.com/a/Tsi1k/embed

Now the problem begins...

Pol, no problem, easy landing.

Bop, I even managed to land near the "anomaly".

Tylo was for the stowaway ! Munzer crashed on it... the lander was lacking TWR to be able to brake properly. Jool5 achievement failed

Vall, the lander was not that stable and almost fall from its feet during landing.

So I planted 4 flags and not 5 at almost the same moment, and then everybody took off.

I expected a more difficult goodbye to Laythe, except that the mechjeb module was attached to the scientific pod, and I had to make all the way back to the mother ship manually.

Goodbye Vall, easy.

Goodbye Tylo, well no

Goodbye Bop, easy.

Goodbye Pol, easy.

Count yourself, we go back home !

1, 2, 3, 4... 4 ? We went 6, and we are only 4, we are supposed to be 5, there was only one crash as far as I remember ?

It seems that Pol's lander took but without its passenger. Well we have resources : 2 backup mini-landers.

Ok, now here we go !

As the mother ship had no solar panel on its own, I had to keep the last backup lander in order to be able to keep a stable ship during accelerations.

Aerobreaking in Kerbin sky from more than 4Km/s, and (almost) everybody came back happy on the south pole with 8k science points !

http://imgur.com/a/QyiGh/embed

Now that my science tree is full I am working on a new Jool5 ship, without science. I obviously have to change my strategy for Tylo.

My goal : plant the 5 flags at the same time.

I am currently testing on Kerbin :

- A Tylo lander, able to go to LKO twice, also used to power the mother ship during take off. He should have enough boost to manage to land without breaking.

- A new Laythe plane in 3 stages : Jet / Rocket / Ion. I currently managed to place it in a 30km x 30km Kerbin "orbit" with its jet engine (I did not even know this was possible).

A smaller overall solution but without outside seats.

I will keep you updated !

Edited August 21, 2014 by Pamynx

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Nice attempt, Pamynx, Tylo did for me too!

Still proud of what I managed to achieve, but my new one will be underway soon too... planning *almost* complete

Edited August 21, 2014 by Cmdr. Arn1e

[CakeNinjaProductions]

I am ashamed of myself.

[Vlk]

\o/ thanks, Ziv!

Hmm, you brought a Mobile Lab and landed five different Kerbals on the moons... if you would have brought a Goo and a Science Jr. then you could have gone for Jebediah's Level... if you leave your main ship in orbit between Vall and Tylo, you could have changed Jebediah to an other Kerbal for the Bop and then for the Pol landing, why didn't you attempt that?

I wanted to do this mission my way, and some of the Jebediah level was against my "rules". For example, science transmiting, and i wanted that science lab too, it was a scientific mission! And i already discovered some of the Jool system, so i could not max out science.

And if you don't put your main ship into low Tylo orbit but use a tug to get there too then you could have save some fuel and weight.

Hmm, thanks for the advice. I was afraid that it would be hard to rendezvous in a high Tylo orbit, but now that i think of it, it would have been better.

[SkyRex94]

So engineering of my Jool-5 is going well. I just finished testing of the Lander and all it needs to land everywhere and fly on Jool. I just need to engineer the main ship and a little Tug before being ready for the mission (Jeb's Level).

And as the testing goes, i'm pretty optimistic i'll could set a new Science Record for Jools SOI Science (Jool + all moons) if i can pull off the mission as i planned it I especially made a new KSP install for Jool-5 to have just MechJeb as a Mod(for DeltaV) and a new Career where Jools Science is still untouched

I don't know yet when i'll have the time to actuallly pull it off but i'll think you can prepare for my mission report within the next 3 weeks.

Edited August 23, 2014 by SkyRex94

[problemecium]

You know I'm starting to think I should make my mothership bigger. I didn't directly accommodate Laythe or Tylo landers in the main design, let alone landers that were large enough to carry a science pod, so I'm worried if I start docking large landing craft onto the sides I'll ruin all the effort I'd put into making it stay structurally sound during 4x physics warp.

May as well post my (early) progress album: http://imgur.com/a/SMYZc

What do you guys think? Bigger? Moar boosters? (It's already in space though...)

Edited August 23, 2014 by parameciumkid