(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

wow, nice job SkyRex! And an epic amount of science! That should earn you a place on the main post, when Ziv gets round to reading/updating

My screenshot in my last post is my new Mothership Test Assembly in VAB, by the way, now has a name and everything; the HMS Fearless Kraken

Took me a while to design, test and tweak the Laythe SpacePlane, now got it down axactly as I want it, all I have to do is tweak how it sits on the mothership assembly and apply some Clampotron Jnr.'s to the side fuel tanks and then get everything launched and assembled in LKO... Th main part of the HMS F.K. is already in orbit (after having to tweak the Launch Vehicle a fair bit, and taking LOTS of proof screenshots of both one of the fail launches and of the last successful one...)

Story so far here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/90691-Cmdr-Arn1e-s-Jool-5-Adventure-2-1st-Contract-Edition?p=1352698#post1352698

(Not linking in my sig this time until I manage to complete...)

[Luovahulluus]

Finally I completed my attempt at the Jool-5 Challenge! I was going for the Jebediah level.

- Which game versions did you use?

0.24

- What mods did you use, if any?

Editor Extensions (Does not add or modify any parts. Only makes the editor more versatile to use.)

Kerbal Engineer Redux

Enhanced NavBall

Procedural Wings

- How many launches was needed to start your mission from Kerbal?

3 (Well only 2 was needed, but I did 3. See details below.)

- How many refueling did you do during the mission, how much and where?

No additional refueling missions. Fuel transfers from one module to another are accounted for below.

- Did you bring a Living Quarter (Hitch-hiker's Storage) for the guys during the long journey?

4 kerbals in HH storage, 2 kerbals in the lab

- Did you bring additional stuff like satellites, rovers, etc?

Nope.

- Share the delta-V informations too, if you tracked it!

Delta-V can be tracked by looking at the Kerbal Engineer Redux displays.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Luovahulluus
Embedded the album, thanks 5thHorseman

[Ziv]

Jool-5-Mission-Report

This is my official entry for the Jool-5 Mission on Jebediahs Level. First of all the statistics:

- Which game versions did you use? - 0.24.2

- What mods did you use, if any? - NavBallDockingAlignmentIndicator, MechJeb(only for Data) (and Chatterer and EVE but thats only immersion)

- How many launches was needed to start your mission from Kerbal? - only One

- How many refueling did you do during the mission, how much and where? - Zero, i actually had waaaay more fuel than needed

- Did you bring a Living Quarter (Hitch-hiker's Storage) for the guys during the long journey? - Yes... everybody was at least 'in' something

- Did you bring additional stuff like satellites, rovers, etc? - Just a load of Science equipment

- Share the delta-V informations too, if you tracked it! - It's in the pictures

Some more Data:

Mass on Pad: just under 2000t

Crew: 7 Kerbals including Jeb Bill and Bob

Costs: Just under a million Funds

Quarters: 4 in Hitchhiker, 2 in Lab and 1 in Lander Mk1(lets pretend the one that was most annoying to the others)

Landings: 3 Kerbals per Landing

MainShip: The Aventador

Lander/Flyer: The Huayra

Tug: The Huracan

(Named after the God of Wind and two Fighting Bulls...of course)

The Mission:

After a long and testing-rich engineering and planning phase the launch day had finally come. And the KSC wanted to see something for their million funds, so this was the Mission target: Explore the Joolian System. I mean fully explore it. For Real, get all the data and everything there is to know, we don't have money and time for another mission!!!!!

With the Numbers in the KSP-Wiki i calculated that the theoretical maximum of all the Science in Jools SOI would be 25080 Science Points (without the 'recover a craft from' science) ( assuming you would bring a zillion experiments for everywhere) So i said to myself that the mission will be succesfully accomplished if the final Science is 24500 Points or higher, thats when i would call it "Got ALL the Science".

So the Mission Plan: Getting at least three(3) Science Reports of every Experiment from every Situation (with two exceptions: Only two ScienceJr. at Laythe Flying and only two Science Jr. at Laythe Ocean) and return them home. Yes this includes a suborbital Jool flight. To prevent accidently transmitting Science i just didn't installed any Antennas on the ship

Launch:

After last checks of the ladders the mission began. And immediatly 1600t where burned to bring the Aventador into Orbit. The burn to Jool needed around 2000m/s, just as expected.

Arriving:

Entering Jools atmosphere led to a little surprise: There seems to be a small window for 'upper atmosphere' Science during aerobraking, although you're not suborbital. It is waay lower than the Atmosphere Border but there is a small window, and i took the opportunity. Parking in eccentric Orbit, detaching the Huayra and the Huracan. Braking close to Jool with the Huracan and drop the Huayra into the atmosphere. I tested the best way of doing this several times during planning, if interested in details ask for them. flying Suborbital in Jools atmosphere, collecting Science fast and accelerating the hell outa there again. Docking back with the Huracan in Low Jool Orbit and then returning to the Aventador. Dropping the MainSideTanks.

Laythe:

Aerobrake and again a lucky strike with upper atmo science, which actually saved me an extra flight of the Huayra. Landing on Laythe at a Coast, there was the only real minor problem during the mission: I discovered the Struts to hold the Wings were asymetrical, speaking one side was missing, i think some issue during the assembly of all the subassemblies. Result was that the Left Wing was wobbly as hell and it was really hard to fly. But it was possible so the mission could continue. Doing Science, driving into water, doing Science, back to shore and Launch back to the Aventador. Dropping the Jet and the Wings on the way.

Tylo:

Getting cheap to Tylo, parking in highly eccentric orbit. Braking closer with the Huracan, the Huayra and the Tylo-Addon. Landing the Huayra with the Tylo-Addon, getting Science, starting again.

Vall:

Landing just with the Huayra and this was the only time where i really had to look at the Fuel. barely got back into Orbit, collected the Huayra with the Huracan and flewn back to the Aventador in its parking Orbit.

Bop:

After some orbits i could get to Bop really cheap. And Bop is easy.

Pol:

Cheap Transit due to good Bop-Pol Position. And Pol was easy too.

After that i had over 350 Reports and a hole load of Fuel left. That ship might actually be able to pull of some kind of Grand Tour but that was not the Mission Target. (And with already 350 Reports i didn't wanted to calculate the differences at the end to get the Jool-SOI Science;) ) So i've done another Pol Landing collecting more Reports. And then i setted up another close Tylo, close Jool and close Laythe flyby to get even more Reports (around 5-6 per Experiment).

Leaving Jool with slingshot and 383 Reports.

Flying to Kerbin and spending the rest of the Fuel (over 5000m/s) to brake the Interplanetary Speed down. Landing with high speed reentry, with the Lab, the Hitchhiker and the Mk1 Lander Can.

7 Crew Members where happy and alive.Clicking on Recovery...

Result 25361,7 Science Points. But that included 330 Points from accomplished Contracts. Subtracting that leads to the final Number:

25031,7 Science Points

from Jools SOI alone and in one Single Trip.

Further Down you'll find a proof-Video and a Video from the Science archives showing i really got nearly ALL of the Jool-Science, and its more than 24500 so i could say:

Mission Accomplished

(that might actually be a new science record ?)

But now the pictures:

http://imgur.com/a/7FBek

Mechjeb DeltaV doesn't like complex Ships with Docking Ports, but i've made DeltaV Pictures of every detached modules too before first firing. I hope i got enough DeltaV and Fuel pictures so you(Ziv) can track down the consumption. If i forgot some important moment i could give you the original Craft-File so you can recreate each Situation and see that everything was possible. Just PM me if needed.

Proof that all the Science was from Jools SOI:

Turn on higher Quality and/or Fullscreen if its not readable

And the Science Archive after the Mission:

So I hope you enjoy this Report. The Aventador was really efficient. I flew everything myself so with MechJeb flying you could probably save even more fuel. You can ask any Questions about the flying or the Ship-Design or methods of collecting many Experiments if interested, i'm open to share my experiences.

Cheers

SkyRex94

SkyRex94: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 Challenge on Jebediah's Level with a new science points record!

Yeah, that suborbital flight at Jool with the external seats was epic!

At Laythe you shouldn't aerobrake your main ship into low orbit, an high-eccentric orbit would be saving more fuel, but as you had already a lot of fuel at the end of the mission this doesn't really count.

At Laythe that's clever that you drove your plane into the ocean for more science points!

Pretty cool modular landers, well done. That's fun that you used the ARM claws to hold your Mk1 during Kerbin return.

Very well planned and executed mission with a new science points record (is there any way to achieve more points??), well done!

[SkyRex94]

SkyRex94: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 Challenge on Jebediah's Level with a new science points record!

Yeah, that suborbital flight at Jool with the external seats was epic!

At Laythe you shouldn't aerobrake your main ship into low orbit, an high-eccentric orbit would be saving more fuel, but as you had already a lot of fuel at the end of the mission this doesn't really count.

At Laythe that's clever that you drove your plane into the ocean for more science points!

Pretty cool modular landers, well done. That's fun that you used the ARM claws to hold your Mk1 during Kerbin return.

Very well planned and executed mission with a new science points record (is there any way to achieve more points??), well done!

Thank you for Reviewing my Mission , now i can have this *look down* awesome new Signature

Yeah the two command seats during Jool flight were kinda nessesary as you can get the two needed EVA reports from them without having to get out on a ladder. Because getting out at 5750m/s inside an atmosphere kinda lets you 'drift' away from your ship at insane speed, so its a bad idea

And yes about the Claw: Its lighter than two docking ports and more important, you don't need an aditional docking port at your lander, although you have to make a counterweight for the Claw, but that was a good place for the solar panels. And that way the core of the Aventador became a kinda unique look

[Laie]

At Laythe that's clever that you drove your plane into the ocean for more science points!

I already wondered where I left so many points unrecovered.

However, I tried the same and got no different results from my equipment -- only new surface samples and EVA reports. What did I do wrong?

[SkyRex94]

I already wondered where I left so many points unrecovered.

However, I tried the same and got no different results from my equipment -- only new surface samples and EVA reports. What did I do wrong?

It happens that its counted as Surface if your too close to the shore, if a report doesn't read ocean simply float further away from the land.

[Superfluous J]

http://imgur.com/a/Onck0

Edit: How can I embed this album?

Like this:

[noparse][imgur]Onck0[/imugr][/noparse]

[GrimReaper]

Is the Communatron 88-88 allowed? because i noticed it clips nearly halfway into the side of my ship (or part) no matter where i put it

[Laie]

Is the Communatron 88-88 allowed? because i noticed it clips nearly halfway into the side of my ship (or part) no matter where i put it

If that was a problem, ladders would be verboten as well.

[GrimReaper]

just making sure the last thing i want is to do the thing and get disqualified after all my hard work:)

[ElWanderer]

So it seems that when I fire all my engines for departure:

This happens:

(followed by the ship veering all over the place until the weakest point snaps and lots of things explode)

The booster was strutted to the main body, as it was the central booster from launch (it was getting into orbit about 1/3rd full of fuel, so I thought why not keep it and refuel it?), but the heatshield and lander/Tylo-descent stage are attached to the front in series with ordinary docking ports, which lets them swing around all over the place when under heavy load. Fortunately the effects are much, much smaller when firing just the nuclear engines (though I still burned through about 12t of monopropellent trying to keep it pointing in the right direction). Once the booster section has been jettisoned, the lander/Tylo-descent stage gets docked round the back in its place... which will hopefully be much more stable.

With all the engines firing, the fuel in the booster should have given me 2450m/s-2 worth of delta-v and a burn time of about 6 minutes. With just the LV-Ns, I now have far too much fuel (the booster had about 90t left when I detached it) and the burn time was about three times longer, so had to be split over multiple orbits.

This seems to be a drawback to launching the main body of the ship into orbit early then replacing most of the components over time as I came up with better designs/researched new technology/found this thread. This wasn't originally intended as a "Jool-5" ship, but a general, re-usable interplanetary explorer I would send out with a lander attached, along with support ships carrying fuel, extra landers etc. Then I found this thread and plans changed... I like to think that if I were to start again from scratch, I'd come up with a much, much better design!

Anyway, at the third attempt my 7 Kerbals have left Kerbin's sphere of influence and fingers crossed they will actually make it to Jool.

[Laie]

just making sure the last thing i want is to do the thing and get disqualified after all my hard work:)

Yes, some challence-hosters are quite mean. But Ziv isn't. The idea seems to be that one should be able to make out the properties of a ship just from looking at it. Don't hide some parts inside others, don't clip things together that the result looks like a Picasso. But attaching girders at odd angles (which inevitably leads to some clipping) seems to be alright; slipping parts over cubic struts so they appear to be flush with the surface seems to be alright as well. You certainly don't need to go out of your way to prevent it with parts that are clippy by design.

[Laie]

So it seems that when I fire all my engines for departure:

It might help if you disable the gimbal on your big engine.

Other than that, build a wider ship and employ multiple docking ports. The number of docking ports isn't as important as the distance between them.

Example 1) http://ksp.schnobs.de/Jool5/1_to_jool/screenshot41.png

Notice the tanks next to the hitchhiker, and the docking ports attached to them. There's three clamp-o-trons right next to the big docking port; I used that scheme going up and down the entire length of the ship. That was enough to make the vessel usable, but it was still noticably bending under thrust.

Example 2) http://ksp.schnobs.de/stuff/screenshot155.png

That's a bit more difficult to make out... sorry that I have no better picture. Structurally, the vessel is made up of three pillars; the core is mostly empty space, just enough parts to hold the pillars together. This turned out to be rock solid, no noticable bending or wobble.

[ElWanderer]

It might help if you disable the gimbal on your big engine

I found it behaved pretty much the same with the gimbal locked and thrust limited to 15%. After that I was amazed it would survive unscathed on nukes alone.

Just done a plane correction burn with the lander moved to the back in place of the booster and it seemed much more solid.

[DaMichel]

going into a 100 km orbit around each moon is a very bad idea: it's a tremendous amount of fuel waste. The best solution is to park your main ship in an orbit between the moons, and use a smaller space-tug to bring your lander into orbit around the moons. And this way you don't have to move the weight of that parts and fuel into and out of each orbit what you will not use there.

Moving things in space needs energy, so move only what is absolutely neccessary.

Thanks for the hint. I can at least spare me the circularization with the main ship. I guess i could also decouple the return-stage and rendezvous later.

Meanwhile my probe has mapped the moons of Jool and collected some data on how much DV i might need for the transfers between the moons, excluding circularizations:

• Kerbin Departure: 2200
  
• Corrections and Tylo capture: 1260
  
• Transfer to Laythe: 1650
  
• Transfer to Val: 370
  
• Transfer to Pol: 1700 (i totally messed this up because i didn't wait for a proper transfer window)
  
• Transfer to Bop: 600
  
• Escape from Bop or Jool, respectively using a Tylo gravity assist and escape burn at low Jool Pe: 1700
  
• Kerbin capture into elliptical orbit 1100Lowering the Ap: 500 - rest is done with aerobraking
  

Total: ~9000

Still quite a lot. Will see how big the rocket becomes with the additional payload of the circularization tug

[SkyRex94]

Thanks for the hint. I can at least spare me the circularization with the main ship. I guess i could also decouple the return-stage and rendezvous later.

Meanwhile my probe has mapped the moons of Jool and collected some data on how much DV i might need for the transfers between the moons, excluding circularizations:

• Kerbin Departure: 2200
  
• Corrections and Tylo capture: 1260
  
• Transfer to Laythe: 1650
  
• Transfer to Val: 370
  
• Transfer to Pol: 1700 (i totally messed this up because i didn't wait for a proper transfer window)
  
• Transfer to Bop: 600
  
• Escape from Bop or Jool, respectively using a Tylo gravity assist and escape burn at low Jool Pe: 1700
  
• Kerbin capture into elliptical orbit 1100Lowering the Ap: 500 - rest is done with aerobraking
  

Total: ~9000

Still quite a lot. Will see how big the rocket becomes with the additional payload of the circularization tug

These numbers are to0 high especially Tylo to Laythe and Transfer to Pol and the departure back to Kerbin, all of these things can be done under 1000m/s you have to try a little with the maneuvor nodes and eyeball the best transfer windows between the moons. Look at my mission report for an example , e.g. i needed just around 250m/s from low Bop to low Pol Orbit, you can save a lot of fuel that way (Of course only if you're running low on fuel, if you have tons of margins for errors you can fly high energy transfers all the time )

[Laie]

Thanks for the hint. I can at least spare me the circularization with the main ship. [...] how much DV i might need for the transfers between the moons

Just leaving the main ship in a whatever orbit you end up with after capture at each moon (probably quite eccentric / high apoapsis) goes a long way. Getting to the next moon cheaply is a question of waiting for a good opportunity where you can make your transfer burn at/near periapsis.

At some time, I was fed up with all those delta-V calculations, just assumed 500m/s for every moon-to-moon transfer, actually brought 600m/s, and in the end this turned out to be quite enough.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

FAIL.

Number 2.

Just had a glitch while recovering some splashed-down debris... and recovered the whole assembly so far, leaving me with no funds to send anything else up

This could be a sign

EDIT: I will try to build up my Funds in this save to see if I can get it done, should hopefully only take as long as playing through to the same point again... depending on level of contracts available...

Edited September 9, 2014 by Cmdr. Arn1e

[Ziv]

Finally I completed my attempt at the Jool-5 Challenge! I was going for the Jebediah level.

- Which game versions did you use?

0.24

- What mods did you use, if any?

Editor Extensions (Does not add or modify any parts. Only makes the editor more versatile to use.)

Kerbal Engineer Redux

Enhanced NavBall

Procedural Wings

- How many launches was needed to start your mission from Kerbal?

3 (Well only 2 was needed, but I did 3. See details below.)

- How many refueling did you do during the mission, how much and where?

No additional refueling missions. Fuel transfers from one module to another are accounted for below.

- Did you bring a Living Quarter (Hitch-hiker's Storage) for the guys during the long journey?

4 kerbals in HH storage, 2 kerbals in the lab

- Did you bring additional stuff like satellites, rovers, etc?

Nope.

- Share the delta-V informations too, if you tracked it!

Delta-V can be tracked by looking at the Kerbal Engineer Redux displays.

http://imgur.com/a/Onck0

Luovahulluus: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 Challenge on Jebediah's Level!

That's funny that the crew missed the launch! I guess that happens sometimes with the HHS+Lab... about the Laythe plane: the procedural wings are not in the allowed mods list and I don't have experience with those, are they stock-alike?

Hmm, leaving the main ship in an eccentric orbit between the moons could be dangerous... but looks like you avoided bad collisons/orbit changes.

And why did you put an other Kerbal onto a chair outside? For more science?

That was a nice solution with the modular lander that you were able to detach the ion-powered command pod and it was strange that you had only one big solar panel...

Your Tylo landing was a close call! And Bop even more close!

Pushing the huge main ship in EVA for sunlight for the solar panels were cool!

good job, thank you for participating!

[Ziv]

Is the Communatron 88-88 allowed? because i noticed it clips nearly halfway into the side of my ship (or part) no matter where i put it

You can bring one but you are not allowed to transfer any science, only those science points counts which were delivered back to Kerbin's surface.

And yes, these small clippings are not a problem. It's about that your ship's volume have to be the same as all the parts's volume together. So no fuel tanks clipping inside each other, no engines inside other stuff, etc.

[Himynameisjake]

You can bring one but you are not allowed to transfer any science, only those science points counts which were delivered back to Kerbin's surface.

And yes, these small clippings are not a problem. It's about that your ship's volume have to be the same as all the parts's volume together. So no fuel tanks clipping inside each other, no engines inside other stuff, etc.

That's such a better explanation, I stressed way too much about the aesthetics clipping I did for Anemoi.

[Ravenchant]

Quick question, do the Kerbals actually have to set foot onto the surface for it to count as a landing? The configuration of my Tylo lander makes it difficult to incorporate ladders, so does the landing still count if the crew don't actually plant a flag?

[Superfluous J]

Quick question, do the Kerbals actually have to set foot onto the surface for it to count as a landing? The configuration of my Tylo lander makes it difficult to incorporate ladders, so does the landing still count if the crew don't actually plant a flag?

Test this out in sandbox with hyperedit, but if your ship is squat enough you can sometimes Jackie-Chan style it up the side of your ship. Jump forward toward the ship and when you hit it, jump again. I've seen people go all the way up a tall ship but I can't do it more than 2 or 3 times with any consistency.

I have successfully done it up onto a science jr attached radially,and then up from that jr onto the top of a fuel tank, and from there to the ship.

And finally, all ladders are massless. You can put them anywhere and not hurt anything except part count and aesthetics. If you absolutely hate them, put them on something you'll drop right after liftoff from Tylo and you'll be fine.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Question for Ziv: The thing holding me back right now is Funds after my wierd recover glitch... Have you considered what you think is a fair budget just in case someone asks to hack the funds in?

I know this will most likely be against the spirit of the challenge and therefore against the rules/downgrade to honourary mention, but I really want to get this going, and adding the Funds through F12 menu seems to be the quickest way to do it (it's taken me about 3 weeks to raise my Funds back up to half a million... another 3 and I might be near where I was before the glitch!!!)

Cheers

[Ziv]

Quick question, do the Kerbals actually have to set foot onto the surface for it to count as a landing? The configuration of my Tylo lander makes it difficult to incorporate ladders, so does the landing still count if the crew don't actually plant a flag?

Yes, every landing has to include a walking on the surface.