[1.12.3+] RealChute Parachute Systems v1.4.9.5 | 20/10/24

[LuciferNZ]

Here's a fact: Cerebrate has zero right to the time and work of any modder, including Chris. By acting the way he did, doing the things he did, he was assuming such a right, as an entitlement. Our community has no use for such behavior. That's what he did wrong. There's other kinds of wrong than license breaches, you know.

I actually see it differently; I thought he was offering an alternative to those of us who used x64 - and was then told why not to do that.

The next bit Cerebrate did, was give an alternative to all mods that blocked x64 - which would probably cause a problem (and in this case did) - but I dont think he figured it was 'that bad'.

Whats your view?

Not trying to cause an argument, just trying to see others view on this.

Note: I do now agree, that supporting x64 is quite the headache for modders, so I can understand the wrath over this.

Edited October 9, 2014 by KasperVld

[Autochton]

I actually see it differently; I thought he was offering an alternative to those of us who used x64 - and was then told why not to do that.

The next bit Cerebrate did, was give an alternative to all mods that blocked x64 - which would probably cause a ....storm (and in this case did) - but I dont think he figured it was 'that bad'.

Whats your view?

Not trying to cause an argument, just trying to see others view on this.

Note: I do now agree, that supporting x64 is quite the headache for modders, so I can understand the wrath over this.

Basically, the last line there. The vast majority of mod users are, it seems, not clued in enough to be able to tell when they're using an unsupported installation. To the point where they'll go to greater lengths to circumvent the things that are supposed to stop uninitiated users from using these combinations than they will to actually read the documentation, or to understand that there is no support for what they're doing. They also direct their ire at modders, rather than at Squad's incompetent handling of the situation. Good lord, if I put out a production system as faulty and unstable as Win64 KSP, I'd be imperiling my job!

So basically, Cerebrate's activities to try an enable this sort of behavior, and to thereby cause trouble for modders who are trying to work through the mess Squad and Unity handed them, are directly counterproductive to the community, to modding, and to the mental health of our modders. All because he's too fancy to use ATM on Win32 KSP, or install Linux and play KSP x64 there. I have absolutely no patience for that sort of behavior.

[ModZero]

Whats your view?

That if you put "polite" and "tbfh" in a single sentence, or think that Cerebrate was polite, or that you're polite, then you're a bad person and should feel bad.

[Joshwoo70]

I actually see it differently; I thought he was offering an alternative to those of us who used x64 - and was then told why not to do that.

The next bit Cerebrate did, was give an alternative to all mods that blocked x64 - which would probably cause a ....storm (and in this case did) - but I dont think he figured it was 'that bad'.

BUT that is what NEAR is doing!

NEAR will disable itself on that build

And Cerebrate.

I GIVE YOU A VERY VERY VERY SLOW CLAP.

ASNW (All shame no wow)

Also. Cerebrate ask before going against the license.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Joshwoo69

[Camacha]

I'm not going to waste my time anymore on this. I've got much better to do. I'm not interested to give my time to work and create stuff for a community which fights me back in return.

Please do not forget that is the same community that rallied and tried to get your laptop repaired when it needed to People were and are not actively fighting you, just working around the limits you set for good or bad reasons.

Guys, I just wanted to write you guys a very big thank you.

Sometimes there are lows in here, and sometimes there are highs. Well this past week you guys have literally surpassed yourselves.

I've received more donations than I could even fathom I would ever get in the past weeks. Seeing all you guys just being supportive out of the blue like this, totally unsollicited is just plain old awesome. I hadn't asked for this, and as far as I know I'm just another stranger on the web for 99% of you, and I could totally have pulled that out of my hat (though that would make me a big bad jerk). I owe all of you so much. Thank you times a billion. This means the world to me.

Here's a fact: Cerebrate has zero right to the time and work of any modder, including Chris. By acting the way he did, doing the things he did, he was assuming such a right, as an entitlement. IOW, he's being an entitled little ..... Our community has no use for such behavior. That's what he did wrong. There's other kinds of wrong than license breaches, you know.

He only acted entitled to the things he was by license, legally and in writing entitled to. I am not sure what people were expecting, those licenses are not just for fun. Maybe attitudes could have been a little less coarse, but if you allow people to make derivatives they can make derivatives with whichever alteration or adaptation anyone wishes. When someone does or works around it you really have a fairly limited set of things you can do if you do not agree.

And, you know, it's not like he was putting swastikas on all the chutes, he just tried to make the mod available to those who wanted to give it a go on x64. Some people do not like that, with good reason, and some people do like it.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Camacha

[Joshwoo70]

Please do not forget that is the same community that rallied and tried to get your laptop repaired when it needed to People were and are not actively fighting you, just working around the limits you set for good or bad reasons.

He only acted entitled to the things he was by license, legally and in writing entitled to. I am not sure what people were expecting, those licenses are not just for fun. Maybe attitudes could have been a little less coarse, but if you allow people to make derivatives they can make derivatives with whichever alteration or adaptation anyone wishes. When someone does or works around it you really have a fairly limited set of things you can do if you do not agree.

I agree. Licences are NOT FOR FUN.

I am a modpack developer who has a couple of modpacks on my PC. I abide by the rules and not including any mod that does not allow me so.

[KasperVld]

I would like to remind everyone that despite the dramatic developments that have occurred we do not condone defamation and harassment in the community. It will be acted upon.

[thread=30064]Community Rules[/thread].

Edited October 9, 2014 by KasperVld

[Starwaster]

Please do not forget that is the same community that rallied and tried to get your laptop repaired when it needed to People were and are not actively fighting you, just working around the limits you set for good or bad reasons.'

Indeed, that WAS truly the community. Cerebrate does not constitute a community and over the past 24+ hours has acted like he wasn't even part of this one.

He only acted entitled to the things he was by license, legally and in writing entitled to. I am not sure what people were expecting, those licenses are not just for fun. Maybe attitudes could have been a little less coarse, but if you allow people to make derivatives they can make derivatives with whichever alteration or adaptation anyone wishes. When someone does or works around it you really have a fairly limited set of things you can do if you do not agree.

Yes, you're right, the license allows derivatives. What he did was NOT a derivative. It was blatantly circumventing Chris's measures that he put in play to disable the mod in a Win64 + KSP 64 environment. While simultaneously refusing ownership of the problem he was creating.. There is a way in which he might have handled things, if it had been a true derivative. I posted such here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/57988-0-25-x-Wenkel-Corporation-RealChute-Parachute-Systems-v1-2-5-2-09-10-14-dead?p=1462640&viewfull=1#post1462640

To sum that post up, MAKE it a derivative/ branch it off as a new mod, with its own thread and assuming personal responsibility and ownership of the situation. He chose another route instead, refusing any other course of action.

[Joshwoo70]

I might fork it... not sure though.

[LuciferNZ]

Basically, the last line there. The vast majority of mod users are, it seems, not clued in enough to be able to tell when they're using an unsupported installation. To the point where they'll go to greater lengths to circumvent the things that are supposed to stop uninitiated users from using these combinations than they will to actually read the documentation, or to understand that there is no support for what they're doing. They also direct their ire at modders, rather than at Squad's incompetent handling of the situation. Good lord, if I put out a production system as faulty and unstable as Win64 KSP, I'd be imperiling my job!

Gotya, thats the same as I feel too - I *personally* didnt have very many issues with x64 in 24.2 (A few hundred hours on it, probably 20 crashes) - but as stupid_chris said - if he cant even load in for more than 30 mins, then theres some SERIOUS issues with x64 for the majority of users.

So basically, Cerebrate's activities to try an enable this sort of behavior, and to thereby cause trouble for modders who are trying to work through the mess Squad and Unity handed them, are directly counterproductive to the community, to modding, and to the mental health of our modders. All because he's too fancy to use ATM on Win32 KSP, or install Linux and play KSP x64 there. I have absolutely no patience for that sort of behavior.

Fair enough, same thoughts here - although I didnt think it was malicious, just immoral, as he had a point about the open-source licensing - and thats been resolved to what it should have been to prevent this.

In otherwords, just because Cere could do it, doesnt mean he should have in that way (in my opinion) even if hes 'technically' in the right, but morally in the wrong after being asked not to do what he was doing.

[steve_v]

In the FOSS community, that's whats known as a 'hostile fork' While it may be within the rules as written it's disrespectfull, impolite and counterproductive. More often than not the result is exactly what we've seen here: the original author says 'fine then, you deal with it' and leaves.

Win x64 is FUBAR, suck it up and move on.

I for one would prefer to run just a few mods on x32 than have no mod at all because some prat stomped on the authors toes one too many times.

Now, how do we lure Chris back so this lovely piece of work can live on?

Edited October 9, 2014 by steve_v

[LuciferNZ]

That if you put "polite" and "tbfh" in a single sentence, or think that Cerebrate was polite, or that you're polite, then you're a bad person and should feel bad.

Ah I see.

Ive had this happen before. I use tbfh as 'To be frankly honest'.

I forget that its not *quite* the normal usage

[steve_v]

Ive had this happen before. I use tbfh as 'To be frankly honest.'

Actually, I was wondering what that was about. Since I swear like a pirate IRL it didn't even occur to me it might be impolite. Might have to update my lexicon

[Camacha]

It was blatantly circumventing Chris's measures that he put in play to disable the mod in a Win64 + KSP 64 environment.

This is true. Like I said, attitudes might have been a little coarse. In reverse I feel that countermeasures were taken to enforce an opinion that was not reflected in the license. If you build a dam in the river, the water will flow around it. You can hardly get upset about that.

People disagree sometimes and when they do, they often try to solve a situation in their own way.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Camacha

[ManTrelk]

I think the community owes Cerebrate an apology. He's not responsible for the developer spitting the dummy and abandoning the mod, that unfortunate decision is on stupid_chris' shoulders. When you release open-source code, and then embed arbitrary restrictions in it, other people are going to fork it. If your ego, or misconceptions about the nature of open-source, prevent you from being okay with that, don't release open source code. Period. There's no other side to this story. Cerebrate certainly isn't 'scum,' or any of the other words that have been thrown at them, for following the rules set in place by the license.

[wasmic]

And there we go.

Uploading the last work I've put in realchute towards fixing that bug. If it'S fixed it is. If it isn't I don't care.

I'm not going to updadte RealChute again. At least not for a very, very long time. If you want to know why, go ahead and ask Cerebrate. He's directly responsible for my departure. I'm guessing since he holds on to distributing recompiled versions of my code everywhere and will force his way through no matter how much I oppose to it, I'm guessing it means he wants to do the support or RealChute. Send all your questions and complaints to him!

I'm not going to waste my time anymore on this. I've got much better to do. I'm not interested to give my time to work and create stuff for a community which fights me back in return.

I really hope that you have thought this through. There are many people on this forum and outside of it who really, really appreciate your work.

[Mystique]

Is there any real difference between stock cone chute and realchute one (except visual), since both of them now use RC module and are tweakable in the same way?

P.S. Oh man, what's going on here? =\

Edited October 9, 2014 by Mystique

[Camacha]

I really hope that you have thought this through. There are many people on this forum and outside of it who really, really appreciate your work.

I think it is safe to say everyone here appreciates and enjoys it. It might in fact be that level of involved appreciation that caused this little upstir.

[Autochton]

I think the community owes Cerebrate an apology. He's not responsible for the developer spitting the dummy and abandoning the mod, that unfortunate decision is on stupid_chris' shoulders. When you release open-source code, and then embed arbitrary restrictions in it, other people are going to fork it. If your ego, or misconceptions about the nature of open-source, prevent you from being okay with that, don't release open source code. Period. There's no other side to this story. Cerebrate certainly isn't 'scum,' or any of the other words that have been thrown at them, for following the rules set in place by the license.

So let's get this straight: You say we owe Cerebrate an apology for circumventing protections Chris put in place for very good reasons, in an attempt to get people to not inundate him with support requests that are nothing to do with his mod, but are entirely Squad and Unity's bailiwick? As mentioned above, if he'd actually done a proper fork he might have had a leg to stand on - a shaky, rude and unpleasant one, but nonetheless. As it is he published a crack. One that Chris then had to guard against!

Honestly if anyone owes apologies here, it's Cerebrate, because his actions were destructive and rude. And lo and behold, he's managed to drive Chris away. That Chris, after doing gods know how many hours worth of work on this, decided he didn't want to deal with that bull is entirely understandable. That you want him and the rest of us to apologize to the destructive, childish person who caused it, a bit less so.

[steve_v]

It might in fact be that level of involved appreciation that caused this little upstir.

Nailed it

Time to chill out and work on undoing the damage done.

That [dead] makes me very sad.

[Laminator]

...

That [dead] makes me very sad.

Same here. RealChute is a Core Mod in all my installations. Really sad how this situation got out of hand...

[ModZero]

Ah I see.

Ive had this happen before. I use tbfh as 'To be frankly honest'.

I forget that its not *quite* the normal usage

You're missing the point. Sure, it might be "frankly", but just because you didn't use a swear word doesn't make the term any less aggressive.

[ManTrelk]

Honestly if anyone owes apologies here, it's Cerebrate, because his actions were destructive and rude.

1) I think we owe him an apology for the community's crazy, frothing-at-the-mouth reaction. That is what's caused this whole issue. People coming here to rabidly defend their favorite developer. Why would we apologise to him for his actions? Makes no sense whatsoever.

2) You're blaming Cerebrate for stupid_chris deciding to spit the dummy? I'm sorry, in my world, adults are responsible for their own actions.

3) I don't know exactly what the circumstances behind Cerebrate's fork were, but in the software development community, it's agreed upon that a) you have no right to be upset if someone uses your code within the bounds set by your license, and you can't update your license and expect it to be retroactive.

What stupid_chris did was taken as a spit in the face by many, and I imagine that includes Cerebrate. There's no justification for arbitrarily restricting how people use your code, and if it has an open license the of course people are going to compile their own versions to remove said spit-in-the-face. As a software developer you have to get used to the fact that 90% of bug reports will be bogus. That's just how it works, and these guys should be happy they're lucky enough to have a community which will take the time to help them with development. Implementing arbitrary restrictions is not the way to combat this issue. All it achieved in this case was to alienate a significant portion of fans of this mod.

[Rich]

Given that this thread is derailing again and that the author is taking a break, I am going to close this thread for the time being. The author is welcome to open this thread again when he wishes to return.

[stupid_chris]

Alright guys, here's how it goes.

Considering:

• That supporting you guys is nearly becoming a full time job;
  
• That I have a personal life that I need to take care of, as well as a part time job, full time school, two cats, a dog, and my own wellbeing;
  
• That my financial life is far from stable and that I'm moving out of the family home next month;
  
• That I do not have the time, energy, and at this point, will, to take care of all the traffic going on in this thread; and
  
• That 90% of the support requests I receive have either been answered numerous times, or lack the information, tools, or friendly tone for me to want or be able to take care of them correctly.

This is what's going to happen:

• I've decided to not completely abandon RealChute;
  
• However, I'm not going to be around this project much for a while. I do not know how long, but I wouldn't bet on an update before 0.26, EVA parachutes will wait. If someone wants to send a pull request for the current bug with stock chutes, I'd be really grateful, would look into it, and publish it if it works;
  
• I am not going to answer any support request until then, or at least for a while. Sorry, but I can't deal with this right now;
  
• When I come back, I'm not going to answer support requests until I've been provided with all the needed information;
  
• I'm not going to answer support requests for things that have been answered/fixed multiple times in the few last pages or in previous updates;
  
• I'm not going to support users who have unlocked RealChute on Win64, even if they revert to 32bit after. Basically, doing this voids your “guaranteeâ€Â. This will hold until Squad removes the unstable builds, or that I judge Win64 to be stable enough. You've been warned;
  
• Dropping support as a whole and letting third parties sort through the bug and different reports has been considered, and might happen if things do not go better and I judge it to be necessary, but we'll cross that bridge if we come to it;
  
• The OP will explain carefully what I need, and how to report bugs;
  
• The new license will stand. I hate having to do it, but I've judged it to be necessary, and;
  
• I will not reply to snarky, rude, judgemental, demanding, or accusatory comments or requests.

I did not want it to come to this, but at this point I have to resort to it. This is far better than nothing at all as I hope all will agree.

I've received a lot of support in the last twenty four hours, and this is what made me decide to not leave the forums as a whole. Thank you to everyone who contributed.

To address some misinformation I've seen a few times in the past few pages: the fork was legal... if you ignore the fact that the terms of my prior license were broken. This is why the link was pulled. This is not what triggered yesterday's reaction.

On another note, my laptop broke, again. This time the system fan stopped working as a whole. Considering I'm running an A10 on a 15.6" laptop, it heats, fast. I sent it to reparation today, and this one passed on the guarantee at least. No idea when I'll get it back however.

That being said, I'd very much prefer for everyone to leave that topic behind. I'm going to reopen the thread now. If things go wrong again, it will be closed until I'm able to take a better care of it.

Thank you everyone for your understanding.

Chris