[WIP][TechTree @ 0.23.5] - [MS19e] - Realistic Progression LITE

[Semmel]

1. Quick question because I cant find it using the thread search.. How can I update my the tech tree of my current RPL play through to the new version?

2. The huge engines from AIES are very annoying.. Also, is there an easy way to handle the 1.25m and 1.0m sizes? Its terribly annoying that they mix like that. I would like to choose one or the other if possible.

3. I noticed that gimbling of the engines is not accessible in the beginning.. is that intended?

4. I probably did something wrong with RCS.. I have RCS fuel on board (same stage as the thrusters), set to be filled with mono propellant. I made all the thrusters use RCS fuel, but only thrusters where you cant change the propellant works. I probably didnt install the mods in the right way, is that a valid assumption or is there an other cause to this? I dont want to reinstall everything, only if I have to.. :/

[Ratzap]

1. Quick question because I cant find it using the thread search.. How can I update my the tech tree of my current RPL play through to the new version?

2. The huge engines from AIES are very annoying.. Also, is there an easy way to handle the 1.25m and 1.0m sizes? Its terribly annoying that they mix like that. I would like to choose one or the other if possible.

3. I noticed that gimbling of the engines is not accessible in the beginning.. is that intended?

4. I probably did something wrong with RCS.. I have RCS fuel on board (same stage as the thrusters), set to be filled with mono propellant. I made all the thrusters use RCS fuel, but only thrusters where you cant change the propellant works. I probably didnt install the mods in the right way, is that a valid assumption or is there an other cause to this? I dont want to reinstall everything, only if I have to.. :/

1) delete tree.cfg from the save directory before starting KSP and pick RPL when it comes up.

2) Nope, that's how they come. As the gif says: Deal with it

3) A lot of engines have no gimbal yes, part of the install instructions for Real Fuels should direct you to adding a gimbal DLL for some of them

4) RCS fuels other than monoprop will not flow anywhere. If you change fuel types you have to fit the verniers on the rcs fuel tank or use pipes.

Between the reaction wheels being gone and RCS being whimpy it can be a real ***** wrestling things into orbit now.

Medi - next bug is with Sputnik 2 Bio readings. I get the data, pop up the experiment, 3000 data disappears but it won't transmit. KSP.log is full of

[EXC 21:58:19.172] KeyNotFoundException: The given key was not present in the dictionary.

Typo somewhere perhaps?

[Ratzap]

Medi - next bug is with Sputnik 2 Bio readings. I get the data, pop up the experiment, 3000 data disappears but it won't transmit. KSP.log is full of

[EXC 21:58:19.172] KeyNotFoundException: The given key was not present in the dictionary.

Typo somewhere perhaps?

Ok, very very odd. 1 orbit later I got enough data to do the radiation readings. It transmitted straight off so I reviewed the bio readings again (tried a few times before) and it transmitted. Someone else will need to try it.

[griffin247]

griffin247: delete the RPL folder. Start your save, load that craft, see if you still have RPL items in the action menu.

Oops, regarding the Communitron 32. I'll fix it for next RO.

MedievalNerd: FASA_Mercury_Redstone_Eng, FASAMercuryRedstoneFin (both go in Explorer node with the rest of the Juno I parts).

(Ninja by Ratzap)[/QUOT

cant load the craft it has gone

[Semmel]

1) delete tree.cfg from the save directory before starting KSP and pick RPL when it comes up.

2) Nope, that's how they come. As the gif says: Deal with it

3) A lot of engines have no gimbal yes, part of the install instructions for Real Fuels should direct you to adding a gimbal DLL for some of them

4) RCS fuels other than monoprop will not flow anywhere. If you change fuel types you have to fit the verniers on the rcs fuel tank or use pipes.

Thank you, I must have missed the gimbal DLL, but if it is not intended to be in the RSS game, its fine by me. I just had trouble steering the rocket and wanted to know if thats intended or not..

Ok, here is a biggy:

In the opening post, it reads "Note: you may well need to delete some of the parts in these packs to make everything run together without going over the memory limit; just delete the folders for the parts you don't use/want.". Yes, I pretty much want to do that. I would like to create a script that removes all the unnecessary files automatically. It would be even better if it were possible to remove the access of the parts with some kind of config file instead of removing the files. Even though that doesnt safe memory, I would be much better because removing can go wrong pretty fast and do real damage to unintended files on the computer.

But to create such a script, I need a list what these parts to remove. I have not the experience with all the mods to do that though. Can someone with knowledge of the RPL tech tree and the mods create that list? The assumption is, that the game should be balanced and playable with all the intended mods installed. So if there are procedural tanks for example, no other (large) fuel tanks are needed. Since there are procedural fairings, no normal wings are required. Since AIES provides custom science modules, the originals can be removed. There are many more examples, but I guess you get my drift.

Thx and cheers to everyone!

Semmel

[MedievalNerd]

well this curse site issue just made getting the mod packages needed harder. I just did a clean install of RPL/RSS/RO with all "newest" versions of mods and browsing "curse" truly was cursed, seems only the forum is a trust-able place to find our mod links now. Thank goodness MN has provided forum page links in OP!

Don't download from Curse unless you 'have to'. Stick to the forums, since this is where everything seems to be updated first. I don't even have my stuff on Spaceport. (But I'm lazy or something.)

[NathanKell]

Semmel:

2. The huge engines--you mean the large lower-stage engines? They're the size they should be--how else do you expect to lift something in roughly Saturn V's weight class? Since RftS makes realistic engines, engines will *generally* have the correct bell size for their role and thrust.

The only RftS engines that remain in 1.25, IIRC, are the LV-T30 and LV-T45. RftS makes pretty much everything else use a standard-meter size.

3. You need the latest ExsurgentEngineering (from the same place you got RftS) to have gimbaling. However, some early engines don't gimbal; you'll need to use fins with control surfaces or all-moving wings.

4. As Ratzap says, most RCS fuel is not ALL_VESSEL. You will need a crossfeeding path between your RCS tank and your thrusters. (Ratzap: note that other RCS fuels do flow, they just flow like LF/Ox, not MonoPropellant/Xenon). Make sure you have CrossFeedEnabler; that will enable the radial RCS tanks to flow into your stack. Note however that decouplers and other "Fuel Crossfeed = false" (aka no "Fuel Crossfeed enabled" shows up in the part tooltip) will block flow.

Note that like engines you must make sure that your RCS thruster (via Action Editor GUI like for engines) uses the same fuel as the kind in your tank.

Ratzap: Apollo managed nearly 30 tons on 4x 441N quads.

griffin247: Then build it again and tell me if it still has at least one set of right-click actons.

Semmel: I can tell you what I've kept; it's harder to tell you what I don't have

Aazard: RSS, RO, and the rest of my stuff won't be on Curse any time soon.

[Ratzap]

Ratzap: Apollo managed nearly 30 tons on 4x 441N quads.

They did it with flight computers though right. KSPs controls aren't very fine grained and without any torque wheels or sources at all, it's neigh on impossible to damp out roll and keep an accurate heading. The amount of RCS fuel needed is pretty high and most kerbal players won't be used to having to use RCS for everything in orbit.

I just went through again, there are no reaction wheels anywhere at all? Is that intentional?

Edit: I looked in the tree.cfg, RCS TL4 is the first wheel. Holy crap, that's a lot of science with wobbly go-kart ships.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Ratzap

[NathanKell]

Huh. I usually find stock SAS to keep things settled pretty well, as long as your craft is reasonably balanced. Mechjeb can be a bit more jittery, but also works decently (and can be set to "use stock SAS for attitude" anyway).

Regarding fine-grained--maybe you have too *much* RCS authority? Try something like a maximum of 4x200N quads per 10 tons of mass? Which means 4x Quarter RCS for a 0.5t probe...

[Ratzap]

Huh. I usually find stock SAS to keep things settled pretty well, as long as your craft is reasonably balanced. Mechjeb can be a bit more jittery, but also works decently (and can be set to "use stock SAS for attitude" anyway).

Regarding fine-grained--maybe you have too *much* RCS authority? Try something like a maximum of 4x200N quads per 10 tons of mass? Which means 4x Quarter RCS for a 0.5t probe...

I balance everything with the RCS build aid before it goes up (rcs and engine modes). I'm using the 4 0.05 micro RCS quads for a 0.3t probe and it's still turning pretty slowly. I mean things are jittery going up on the launch because there is only gimbal to steer with and when the RCS runs out in orbit (all too soon) you are completely stuffed because you have no control left. No wheels at all until the 4th RCS tree node makes the start pretty hard IMO particularly since gyroscopes were not unknown back then.

[griffin247]

Semmel:

2. The huge engines--you mean the large lower-stage engines? They're the size they should be--how else do you expect to lift something in roughly Saturn V's weight class? Since RftS makes realistic engines, engines will *generally* have the correct bell size for their role and thrust.

The only RftS engines that remain in 1.25, IIRC, are the LV-T30 and LV-T45. RftS makes pretty much everything else use a standard-meter size.

3. You need the latest ExsurgentEngineering (from the same place you got RftS) to have gimbaling. However, some early engines don't gimbal; you'll need to use fins with control surfaces or all-moving wings.

4. As Ratzap says, most RCS fuel is not ALL_VESSEL. You will need a crossfeeding path between your RCS tank and your thrusters. (Ratzap: note that other RCS fuels do flow, they just flow like LF/Ox, not MonoPropellant/Xenon). Make sure you have CrossFeedEnabler; that will enable the radial RCS tanks to flow into your stack. Note however that decouplers and other "Fuel Crossfeed = false" (aka no "Fuel Crossfeed enabled" shows up in the part tooltip) will block flow.

Note that like engines you must make sure that your RCS thruster (via Action Editor GUI like for engines) uses the same fuel as the kind in your tank.

Ratzap: Apollo managed nearly 30 tons on 4x 441N quads.

griffin247: Then build it again and tell me if it still has at least one set of right-click actons.

Semmel: I can tell you what I've kept; it's harder to tell you what I don't have

Aazard: RSS, RO, and the rest of my stuff won't be on Curse any time soon.

cant build it again as the parts dont show up they arnt there. anyway i can live with the problem. everything else seems to be working. now i guess i just jinxed myself

[Silpion]

Howdy,

I'll make a video and an Excel sheet for download and track.

as far as mod pack I'm not going to try it again too many mods varying releases, so really hard to maintain.

and the last thing modders need is dealing with outdated issues do to a pack being out of sync.

that being said there were 2 mod pack downloaders but I think they aren't updated anymore.

Thanks for the feedback,

Just want to make sure I didn't accidentally rub you the wrong way: I wasn't suggesting you do this yourself, but was just thinking out loud. Given the prevalence of modding it seems like Squad should maybe at some point build in some kind of mod management system to allow auto-updates or at least notifications. For now I'm quite happy to just consume these awesome mods you guys are pumping out.

Great update!

[MedievalNerd]

Just want to make sure I didn't accidentally rub you the wrong way: I wasn't suggesting you do this yourself, but was just thinking out loud. Given the prevalence of modding it seems like Squad should maybe at some point build in some kind of mod management system to allow auto-updates or at least notifications. For now I'm quite happy to just consume these awesome mods you guys are pumping out.

Great update!

Nope, not at all.

The mod pack question has arisen multiple times throughout. So perhaps I'm giving the short answer at this point.

And yes, I'd love to see some kind of in-game mod support. As long as it does not become restrictive in any way! D:

[Ratzap]

Another small bug. I use the tomtom mechjeb case (it's much smaller and less blocky - easier to use with half meter rockets) and it's in the RCS2 node. However, since the features to MJ are unlocked in the starting node already, they do not apply to the tomtom. I edited the tree, put them in a different node so it let me re-unlock them and it works again. Not necessarily an RPL problem but weird anyway.

And another: the tank for Juno/explorer A7 engine doesn't support the alternate fuel mix of Hydyne/LOx

Edited May 12, 2014 by Ratzap

[NathanKell]

Ratzap: are you using the right tank? There's both a Redstone tank and a Juno tank.

[Ratzap]

Ratzap: are you using the right tank? There's both a Redstone tank and a Juno tank.

Not really sure tbh, I'll check again. I'm just out of KSP as I have to put the reaction wheel back into the explorer core. RPL tweaks takes it out but you simply cannot control the solid stages without it and it's not like I can add something else to control it.

Yes, the right tank. Juno I fuel tank for the explorer rocket. The engine will switch but the tank doesn't list Hydyne.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Ratzap

[NathanKell]

That's weird. I'll check in the configs and check up with RedAV8R, who's handling FASA realism patches now (*far* more completely and competently than I did! )

[Ratzap]

Explorer 1 really is pretty tough now. You must get it into orbit to collect enough data and you must have the reaction wheel in the probe section or it's impossible. With the alc+LOx mix you have to get the ascent bang on or you'll be missing a couple of hundred dV to circularize. My 2nd try got into an 860 x 171 km orbit, good enough to grab the science and move on.

[Semmel]

2. The huge engines--you mean the large lower-stage engines? They're the size they should be--how else do you expect to lift something in roughly Saturn V's weight class? Since RftS makes realistic engines, engines will *generally* have the correct bell size for their role and thrust.

The only RftS engines that remain in 1.25, IIRC, are the LV-T30 and LV-T45. RftS makes pretty much everything else use a standard-meter size.

But why are they so early in the tech tree where you cant use them because you dont have duel tanks anywhere near that size? (information based on MS19a)

3. You need the latest ExsurgentEngineering (from the same place you got RftS) to have gimbaling. However, some early engines don't gimbal; you'll need to use fins with control surfaces or all-moving wings.

All right, Ill try the gimbal dll...

4. As Ratzap says, most RCS fuel is not ALL_VESSEL. You will need a crossfeeding path between your RCS tank and your thrusters. (Ratzap: note that other RCS fuels do flow, they just flow like LF/Ox, not MonoPropellant/Xenon). Make sure you have CrossFeedEnabler; that will enable the radial RCS tanks to flow into your stack. Note however that decouplers and other "Fuel Crossfeed = false" (aka no "Fuel Crossfeed enabled" shows up in the part tooltip) will block flow.

Note that like engines you must make sure that your RCS thruster (via Action Editor GUI like for engines) uses the same fuel as the kind in your tank.

I had them on the same stage and I used all RCS engines I could find. I configured the tanks to hold mono propellant and all RCS thrusters to accept mono propellant. Still, only static ones functioned (MS 19a) I guess I have a faulty install. I will have to make a fresh install before continuing..

Semmel: I can tell you what I've kept; it's harder to tell you what I don't have

Well.. that should be possible as well. Would it be enough to remove all parts that are not needed from the tech tree instead of removing the files from the hard disc?

Cheers,

Semmel

[Ratzap]

But why are they so early in the tech tree where you cant use them because you dont have duel tanks anywhere near that size? (information based on MS19a)

There's your problem. 19a is a very different beast to 19e. Tanks up to 7m are available.

[Makeone]

I finally managed to dive in to RSS career using the RPL and i was wondering where are my early probes...then i check first message again and figured that the rar-pack had an actual purpose... lol

Anyway, few missions done, barely, i might add. A question rises its ugly head, how are the procedural tanks meant to work within the RPL? Are they limited by the available tech level, i.e. how long and wide they can be? Some times they will only get large enough to hold 2500 litres (2m tall and 1.413m wide) so it's really hard to build a rocket with them. Some times they expand correctly get to the 'proper' sizes... Is there some sort if bug of procedural parts or how RPL controls them (if it does at all?)

Hum, next task, what kind of monster i need to get tiny probe to what, 37,500,000 meters...ugh

[Ratzap]

I wonder if the 2nd part of RPL-SWE-MB1 is supposed to be in highSpace. Completing the first bit says: "let's proceed to higher orbit and complete the analysis." but the 2nd part will work in the same orbit as the 1st.

Hum, next task, what kind of monster i need to get tiny probe to what, 37,500,000 meters..

Since you ask, this - tech 1 and 2 stuff. Gets a com sat to geosync with 2500 dV to spare.

[Makeone]

Right...that's pretty...ehm...

[Mirean]

My rule of thumb in making efficient rocket is: Make the payload as lightest as possible. So for example my geosync comms satellites consist of: service module containing some Hydrazine (usually around 50) and rest filled up with bipropellant for orbital engine - for that I use any of the low-thrust ones (most commonly 2 of the radially attached 1.3kN I think?) and then adjust it so it has around 4km/s of dV. It doesn't weigh that much, because the other stuff is pretty lightweight And of course 1 Comms32 and 4 solar panels.

My 2nd stage then consists of cryogenic tank with the single-nozzle hydrolox engine (439s ISP) and first stage is the 500kN kerolox single-nozzle engine. It gets there with few hundred m/s of spare dV and the rocket is really small

[Silpion]

Possible bug: Is Sputnik 2 supposed to lack SAS? All the other early probes have it. Made launch somewhat challenging.