[WIP][TechTree @ 0.23.5] - [MS19e] - Realistic Progression LITE

[Elokaynu]

well any way I got the mod to work just now there is a problem.

Seems when I try to select the types of fuel I'm not able to scroll the list down at all, any tips?

[NathanKell]

1. Go to Realism Overhaul thread: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/59207

2. Download Realism Overhaul from that thread.

3. Follow instructions at bottom of first post in that thread (immediately below where you click to download Realism Overhaul...) as to how to download and install RftSEngines.cfg

EDIT: ninja'd.

There should be a scrollbar on the right of the fuel listing. Drag it up and down.

Agathorn: 9.3km/s expended to orbit, roughly. Means something like 9.5-9.6 vac dV, considering nozzle/atmosphere losses.

Note that your liftoff TWR can be as low as 1.15 sea level TWR, and your upper stage TWR might be something like starts at 0.8 vacuum TWR, ends at 5 or something? KSP teaches you to over-TWR things...

Edited January 11, 2014 by NathanKell

[Agathorn]

well any way I got the mod to work just now there is a problem.

Seems when I try to select the types of fuel I'm not able to scroll the list down at all, any tips?

In which screen? Are you talking about the extended tooltip in the VAB, or the edit screen in the Action group editor?

[Elokaynu]

In which screen? Are you talking about the extended tooltip in the VAB, or the edit screen in the Action group editor?

I've DONE

NathanKell: I'm unable to scroll it, like it's stuck, I've restarted but nothing

Edited January 11, 2014 by Elokaynu

[NathanKell]

1. Liquid oxide doesn't exist. Liquid Oxygen is at the top of the list; NitrousOxide is lower down.

2. There will be a bar on the right side of the window. Drag it up and down to scroll.

[Elokaynu]

Im unable to move the bar/scroll seems like the bar is stuck

[MedievalNerd]

Weird, I don't know what to say personally about that. If you just have 0.23 with RealFuels using the RftsEngines config. Does it work then? No idea what mod would be conflicting with it.

Screenshot?

[MedievalNerd]

So, Bumper & Explorer 1 review is completed. Mass, Antenna range, packet consumption, internal battery, experiments. All done.

Now to do the Sputniks and Vanguard.

I'm thinking of introducing 'gamey-ish' experiments, like sample retrievals, which don't occur all that often technically. And is obviously an interesting challenge. Those would be optional and worth extra science points for the skilled.

Didn't have time findangles some ugly Luna probes, so I'll stick with the Cube perhaps for now. The first Impact probe will be a chemical release experiment. So basically instead of having to accumulate Data, you have to purge your tank, prior to being able to do the experiment. And obviously the tank can only be emptied in either 'flyingHigh' or 'flyinglow' over Mun. So calculate that descent right, or else it's a bit hard to turn around.

For the other Lunar probe missions, they'll be collecting video & picture data. I'll see if I want to put in both or just do a generic 'video data' for now. Can't keep adding stuff if I want to release MS19 at some point!

[Agathorn]

I think it would be cool to have real world experiments like crashing probes into the surface of a body. At least I think there were some experiments like that. Now that I say it I can't seem to find reference.

[Agathorn]

So even with this HUGE beast, just trying to get a lousy 0.2t into "high space", the best I can do is 17 to 18 million meters.

[MedievalNerd]

I think it would be cool to have real world experiments like crashing probes into the surface of a body. At least I think there were some experiments like that. Now that I say it I can't seem to find reference.

Yes, there will be 'impact' probes. But in the pure sense of the term, there is no science from crashing into something. Unless it's some seismic or dust experiment that a 2nd probe would be observing. Like the first Luna probe, it was a feat in of itself since it was the first thing to land of another celestial body. But, it did release a chemical as it was aproaching the moon in order to be tracked. Hence why i'll use that, as the mechanic for the experiment.

Other early impact probes, basically took as many pictures and reading it could as it approached the moon on a crash course. And that's the reason why I want video/picture data added.

I was able to add a science payout upon impact feature tot he plugin, but it causes issues like the fact that you keep the points even if you revert your mission. :/ And again, it would only be for that one time accomplishment, but can be easily done with either of those 2 new 'modules' I've added.

In terms of 2 probes doing a co-experiment, I'll look into that a little later. Ferram had made that suggestion a while back and I like it. I'm just not a expert coder, or that knowledgeable of KSP modding to be honest.

Cheers,

[MedievalNerd]

So even with this HUGE beast, just trying to get a lousy 0.2t into "high space", the best I can do is 17 to 18 million meters.

Well it doesn't have that much Delta V. 13k. The relation with engines and DV is a bit peculiar at times. You don't want to be adding more fuel weighing down your rocket and ultimately getting a diminishing return to each engine added, but getting it's full weight. Less is more sometimes.

I sent you the DV chart. If you look at it, you can see that to LEO 9.4K, To GEO Transfer 2.44K, and to Geosync another 1.47K DV. That's 13.31k DV precisely. So unless you really are a pro at doing your maneovers at the optimal times, you'll burn more than that. And thus not make it. Try to make a rocket with 15K DV or more.

EDIT: There will be more LowSpace experiments with MS19. So you should be able to unlock better parts to make your life easier. Plus many of these new probes are much smaller and lighter than what has ever been in stock. lol

EDIT2: Keep practicing your launch too. Being able to launch with the least amount of DV possible is that much more DV for later.

Edited January 11, 2014 by MedievalNerd

[Agathorn]

Yes, there will be 'impact' probes. But in the pure sense of the term, there is no science from crashing into something. Unless it's some seismic or dust experiment that a 2nd probe would be observing. Like the first Luna probe, it was a feat in of itself since it was the first thing to land of another celestial body. But, it did release a chemical as it was aproaching the moon in order to be tracked. Hence why i'll use that, as the mechanic for the experiment.

Other early impact probes, basically took as many pictures and reading it could as it approached the moon on a crash course. And that's the reason why I want video/picture data added.

I was able to add a science payout upon impact feature tot he plugin, but it causes issues like the fact that you keep the points even if you revert your mission. :/ And again, it would only be for that one time accomplishment, but can be easily done with either of those 2 new 'modules' I've added.

In terms of 2 probes doing a co-experiment, I'll look into that a little later. Ferram had made that suggestion a while back and I like it. I'm just not a expert coder, or that knowledgeable of KSP modding to be honest.

Cheers,

Cool thanks for the information. That all makes sense. The more "real" science we can do, the cooler it is I think. Thanks for all your hard work!

[Agathorn]

Well it doesn't have that much Delta V. 13k. The relation with engines and DV is a bit peculiar at times. You don't want to be adding more fuel weighing down your rocket and ultimately getting a diminishing return to each engine added, but getting it's full weight. Less is more sometimes.

I sent you the DV chart. If you look at it, you can see that to LEO 9.4K, To GEO Transfer 2.44K, and to Geosync another 1.47K DV. That's 13.31k DV precisely. So unless you really are a pro at doing your maneovers at the optimal times, you'll burn more than that. And thus not make it. Try to make a rocket with 15K DV or more.

EDIT: There will be more LowSpace experiments with MS19. So you should be able to unlock better parts to make your life easier. Plus many of these new probes are much smaller and lighter than what has ever been in stock. lol

EDIT2: Keep practicing your launch too. Being able to launch with the least amount of DV possible is that much more DV for later.

Hmm it sounds like maybe my problem is with my flight profile first. I'm trying to just shoot pretty much straight up, since I don't care about orbit or even coming back down. But maybe I should be actually getting into a lower orbit, then transferring up. Is that actually more efficient and therefore uses less dV?

[Elokaynu]

Weird, I don't know what to say personally about that. If you just have 0.23 with RealFuels using the RftsEngines config. Does it work then? No idea what mod would be conflicting with it.

Screenshot?

Where it is circled can't be moved

[MedievalNerd]

Hmm it sounds like maybe my problem is with my flight profile first. I'm trying to just shoot pretty much straight up, since I don't care about orbit or even coming back down. But maybe I should be actually getting into a lower orbit, then transferring up. Is that actually more efficient and therefore uses less dV?

Definitely. Try starting to turn when you reach 100m/s. Aim to have TWR of 1.2 for your first stage.

Edited January 11, 2014 by MedievalNerd

[MedievalNerd]

Where it is circled can't be moved

Does the same thing happen if you have an engine attached to the tank?

[Elokaynu]

Yes I do wont let me scroll and it seems that the ones in there are miss placed as well

Edited January 11, 2014 by Elokaynu

[NathanKell]

Agathorn: I'd say 14-15km/s dV for geosynch is probably safe. 13.4 vac dV is way too low--remember that you'll spend some of your time in atmosphere, where your Isp is lower. I estimate you'll lose 200-400m/s dV due to that.

So you can't just look at the dV chart and then give yourself that in vac dV; you have to account for nozzle/atmospheric losses.

Also, remember to up the TL of your engines (same place you configure them for fuel mode) unless you want to be playing circa 1950.

Techlevels description are in post 3 of Real Fuels thread.

Also, re: flight profile: yup, that's 90% of it. You never, *ever* want to shoot straight up, since by definition all the dV you expend on going up will be lost as gravity losses. Instead you want to fly a normal ascent (pitch program init at 100m/s, be horizontal at maybe 120km) and just keep burning until apogee = 35,786km. By the time your apogee is that high, likely your perigee will be above the atmosphere, and you can stick around in your GTO until your apogee is over where you want. When it is, circularize at apogee, and you have your satellite in GEO.

Some notes on your rokcet. 1.13 is pretty much the *minimum* possible launch thrust; you'll likely net lose only a few m/s if you lighten the lower stage until you have 1.2TWR on liftoff. .9 is also a bit low for post-boost core stage; but that'll be taken care of by raising liftoff thrust to 1.2. Your secodn stage has WAY too high a TWR--4.6G initial TWR. *That's* where you want to start having sub-1 TWRs. Try starting at about 0.8, you should end at maybe 5. Also, don't be afraid to use the "wrong" size engine on a tank: that's what procedural interstages are for.

Since you're using RftSEngines, I'd suggest using maybe the LR42R (AIES Galaxy VR) instead of the Miles or Decurion (LV-Twhatever) you've got right now. If not, use the Optio (LV-909). Your final stage is also quite high in TWR; try using maybe 2-3 LR25s.

Another suggestion to decrease drag losses: every time you change diameter on your core, little baby ferram cries.

Try using short, fat upper stages instead, of the same diameter as your core; if necessary, fair away the apogee kick stage *inside* the main fairnig. The mass you pay for the larger fairing will probably be outweighed by what you gain in lower drag losses, and will *certainly* be outweighed by the fact your launcher will be much more stable (lower center of pressure).

I'll try to whip something up as an example for you if you like.

Elokaynu: Grab the TOP part of that bar (the only place it's actually a bar) and move it down. Also, since I'm the guy who wrote all this stuff, I'm pretty sure I know the right file to have given you.

[Elokaynu]

Seems that I can actually move the bar without being on the bar by clicking under/above and dragging in the way I want, it seems to be a snapping

Also seems to be a pain sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, but when it does it makes it work though

Edited January 11, 2014 by Elokaynu

[NathanKell]

You click and hold right in the middle of the (upper half of the) bar. You then drag it down to scroll down.

[Agathorn]

Agathorn: I'd say 14-15km/s dV for geosynch is probably safe. 13.4 vac dV is way too low--remember that you'll spend some of your time in atmosphere, where your Isp is lower. I estimate you'll lose 200-400m/s dV due to that.

So you can't just look at the dV chart and then give yourself that in vac dV; you have to account for nozzle/atmospheric losses.

Also, remember to up the TL of your engines (same place you configure them for fuel mode) unless you want to be playing circa 1950.

Techlevels description are in post 3 of Real Fuels thread.

Also, re: flight profile: yup, that's 90% of it. You never, *ever* want to shoot straight up, since by definition all the dV you expend on going up will be lost as gravity losses. Instead you want to fly a normal ascent (pitch program init at 100m/s, be horizontal at maybe 120km) and just keep burning until apogee = 35,786km. By the time your apogee is that high, likely your perigee will be above the atmosphere, and you can stick around in your GTO until your apogee is over where you want. When it is, circularize at apogee, and you have your satellite in GEO.

Some notes on your rokcet. 1.13 is pretty much the *minimum* possible launch thrust; you'll likely net lose only a few m/s if you lighten the lower stage until you have 1.2TWR on liftoff. .9 is also a bit low for post-boost core stage; but that'll be taken care of by raising liftoff thrust to 1.2. Your secodn stage has WAY too high a TWR--4.6G initial TWR. *That's* where you want to start having sub-1 TWRs. Try starting at about 0.8, you should end at maybe 5. Also, don't be afraid to use the "wrong" size engine on a tank: that's what procedural interstages are for.

Since you're using RftSEngines, I'd suggest using maybe the LR42R (AIES Galaxy VR) instead of the Miles or Decurion (LV-Twhatever) you've got right now. If not, use the Optio (LV-909). Your final stage is also quite high in TWR; try using maybe 2-3 LR25s.

Another suggestion to decrease drag losses: every time you change diameter on your core, little baby ferram cries.

Try using short, fat upper stages instead, of the same diameter as your core; if necessary, fair away the apogee kick stage *inside* the main fairnig. The mass you pay for the larger fairing will probably be outweighed by what you gain in lower drag losses, and will *certainly* be outweighed by the fact your launcher will be much more stable (lower center of pressure).

I'll try to whip something up as an example for you if you like.

Nathan thank you very much for the details help. I appreciate it. One of the problems i'm finding is it is just difficult to get the dV I need in a more basic rocket unless I make it super tall and skinny, which looks stupid. So that's why i'm expanding from my small .625 payload, out to like 2.5 to get more fuel in there. But then i'm running into TWR issues. Yeah its rocket science it ain't supposed to be easy

These tips will help as I keep tweaking and trying things. FYI yes i've advanced my Tech Level, though right now i'm on 1, so not much of an advance. I don't have a lot of fairing or interstage options unlocked right nowm and i've noticed that some decoupler/engine combinations add an interstage fairing and some don't. I don't really seem to have control over that.

[Agathorn]

Yay I did it! At first it didn't seem to be working as around 300k, I was getting closer to my own Apogee at around 350km which made no sense me as I was still accelerating, then all of a sudden something change and my Apogee started moving away around the planet then it accelerated REALLY fast and next thing I knew, my apogee is now shown at over 50,000 km!

[MedievalNerd]

Yay I did it! At first it didn't seem to be working as around 300k, I was getting closer to my own Apogee at around 350km which made no sense me as I was still accelerating, then all of a sudden something change and my Apogee started moving away around the planet then it accelerated REALLY fast and next thing I knew, my apogee is now shown at over 50,000 km!

Awesome! Nathan is much more elaborate in his tips than I am. Then again, he's one hell of an engineer in comparison to my lego skills.

[Agathorn]

Heh well the excitement was short lived as apparently I didn't bring along a powerful enough antenna.

But at least I know I have a launch vehicle capable of doing it now, even if it is a little .. um.. shaky lol.