[WIP][TechTree @ 0.23.5] - [MS19e] - Realistic Progression LITE

[Guest]

Woo-Hoo,

i think that should cover it all, anyone else see anything missing or that needs a fix? super hotfix here we come!

[MedievalNerd]

Woo-Hoo,

i think that should cover it all, anyone else see anything missing or that needs a fix? super hotfix here we come!

Yeah! Can't wait for the guy to release it! It'll be awesome!

Oh... Wait a minute...

[NathanKell]

Ratzap: Dude needs to update his OP... :]

(It works fine with RftS)

Aazard: Thanks. :] That's two conic stretchy service modules. Set top and bottom diameter as desired, highlight and press b until curvature is to taste. For the engine, I clipped 2x Oscar-Bs going *up* from the bottom node, and then placed the A4 engine's top node on the top node of the second Oscar-B. Finally I radially attached pwings to the A4 engine. (The nose of the V2 is a PF interstage adapter, connected to the WAC Corporal Sustainer.)

Especially since specific probes have specific experminets, they really should have their specific battery capacities. Admittedly, a large problem here is that any probe is, due to current KSPness, infinitely controllable, whereas really something like Sputnik or Explorer had no "brain" at all, and couldn't even receive commands. It just passively transmitted, and in the latter case transmitted its readings. Even the early "controllable" probes certainly weren't radio-control controllable, they had tiny little programs running that couldn't be changed.

Another key difficulty is orientation. In KSP you always know how you're oriented thanks to the navball, whereas in reality it was very hard, often done with aligning via stars, and often failed.

In the days of RT1 I had a module that allowed probes to conduct experiments only, not control vessels; I (or someone) needs to remake that. That would allow light, cheap "science probes" and heavier actually-can-control-vessel probes.

Anyway, re: probes. Please, please, please set energy stored based on battery life and scale experiments to match; 1 EC has to equal 1kJ in RO or things get really messed up!

[andqui]

Anyway, re: probes. Please, please, please set energy stored based on battery life and scale experiments to match; 1 EC has to equal 1kJ in RO or things get really messed up!

Slightly off topic, but if EC is directly converted to joules, what is EC supposed to represent? Potential energy left in the battery?

[MedievalNerd]

Ratzap: Dude needs to update his OP... :]

(It works fine with RftS)

Aazard: Thanks. :] That's two conic stretchy service modules. Set top and bottom diameter as desired, highlight and press b until curvature is to taste. For the engine, I clipped 2x Oscar-Bs going *up* from the bottom node, and then placed the A4 engine's top node on the top node of the second Oscar-B. Finally I radially attached pwings to the A4 engine. (The nose of the V2 is a PF interstage adapter, connected to the WAC Corporal Sustainer.)

Especially since specific probes have specific experminets, they really should have their specific battery capacities. Admittedly, a large problem here is that any probe is, due to current KSPness, infinitely controllable, whereas really something like Sputnik or Explorer had no "brain" at all, and couldn't even receive commands. It just passively transmitted, and in the latter case transmitted its readings. Even the early "controllable" probes certainly weren't radio-control controllable, they had tiny little programs running that couldn't be changed.

Another key difficulty is orientation. In KSP you always know how you're oriented thanks to the navball, whereas in reality it was very hard, often done with aligning via stars, and often failed.

In the days of RT1 I had a module that allowed probes to conduct experiments only, not control vessels; I (or someone) needs to remake that. That would allow light, cheap "science probes" and heavier actually-can-control-vessel probes.

Anyway, re: probes. Please, please, please set energy stored based on battery life and scale experiments to match; 1 EC has to equal 1kJ in RO or things get really messed up!

Seems we have a long chat ahead of us Friday night.

Can't wait!

[NathanKell]

andqui: Primarily I had set things such that 1EC per second = 1kW. That translates to 1EC = 1kJ (and 3600EC = 1kWh, which is what battery capacity for spacecraft is usually given in, that I can find).

[dlrk]

Is there a way to get Milestone 18 again? I prefer it a great deal to 19.

(for feedback, I think 19 is too linear, and follows the real world too closely. I see myself as operating a realistic space program, just on a different planet with different beings)

[MedievalNerd]

Is there a way to get Milestone 18 again? I prefer it a great deal to 19.

(for feedback, I think 19 is too linear, and follows the real world too closely. I see myself as operating a realistic space program, just on a different planet with different beings)

Actually MS18 is now part of the nether. When I published MS19 I had to save over the public slot. (I have 1 dev slot (private) and 1 public slot (release))

Give it some time, I'll include alternate experiments and there is branching past earth. Go for more unmanned, or go manned earlier on. etc.

The vast array of issues I failed to foresee, and the still lacking number of experiments makes it seem more linear than it will end up being.

[Ivan Ivanovich]

I have to admit that I either make some terrible mistake when trying to install things, or something is amiss.

First of all, I wiped my KSP install prior to trying to install this mod, just to be sure there are no old configs messing with it. Still... somehow I can't get things done right.

1) The install instructions tell me to "#2 - Download and install RPL MS19! (Merge the GameData folder in the zip into your KSP folder)". I downloaded the rar provided in the link, but there is no GameData folder in the zip. Dumping the contents simply into the GameData folder (as with other mods) doesn't seem to be right, and neither does the Squad folder inside the zip fit in any way into the directory structure of the Squad Folder in the GameData directory. Also, quite a few directories in there are empty or contain files that, well, don't really make a lot of sense intuitively. I'd be very grateful for pointers.

2) This is, as I said before, not the first time I try to install it (it's now the third in total). First was a MS18 version, where the stretchy tanks didn't stretch at all (they were kinda stuck in 0.625m size). Now with MS19 I suddenly lack the Explorer and Stayputnik Missions (which logically leads to a very limited chance to gain research points). Any idea what's wrong?

I tried to follow the instructions to the letter, and after doing it thrice so far I dare say that there might be something missing in the instructions that people who have done it a few dozen times do by default without considering that the information needs to be said. Sadly, I'm not one of these people.

Is there any chance that someone who knows how it should work takes it upon himself to try to do a clean install to see whether I'm just dumb or whether something is missing now? I also noticed a considerable difference inthe MS18 and MS19 package, could it possibly be that something is missing?

[Sternface]

Hey MedievalNerd, I had some free time today and tried out your tree. I'm loving it so far - it really adds a whole different element to KSP.

Nice work, and thanks to those who helped out with the patches and fixes.

I know you said you didn't like planes, but have you ever considered adding a historic element regarding planes as another form of 'science'?

If possible, velocity used as a parameter requirement/condition could make for some interesting missions. The realistic jet turbine mod might add enough realism to make stuff like this a considerable challenge.

Just to throw some ideas out there:

- Transonic data collection.

- Bell X-1 type mission to break the sound barrier. Collect data @ > mach 1.

- Bell X-2 type mission to reach high-supersonic speeds. Collect data between mach 2-3.

- Aerojet General X-8 type mission. Collect data in upper atmosphere ( ~60 km).

- X-11/X-12 type missions as test beds for the Atlas. Sub-orbital test flights w/ dummy warhead.

- X-15 type mission. Collect data at hypersonic speeds (Mach 5-10). Exceed 80km for kerbalnaught status.

- Lockheed X-17 - Coast to 160km Ap, reenter ~mach 15. High-mach reentry testing.

- X-20: Similar to Mercury and Gemini, but with the capability of gliding to earth and horizontal landing (like an early space shuttle).

- X-30: SSTO

- X-43: Hypersonic scramjet platform (assuming we get scramjets at one point) ~Mach 10.

- HyperSoar: Mach 12 passenger plane designed to skip off the atmosphere.

- U2 type mission : long-duration high-altitude subsonic reconnaissance

- A-12/SR-71 type mission: long duration high-altitude supersonic reconnaissance.

[Guest]

I have to admit that I either make some terrible mistake when trying to install things, or something is amiss.

First of all, I wiped my KSP install prior to trying to install this mod, just to be sure there are no old configs messing with it. Still... somehow I can't get things done right.

1) The install instructions tell me to "#2 - Download and install RPL MS19! (Merge the GameData folder in the zip into your KSP folder)". I downloaded the rar provided in the link, but there is no GameData folder in the zip. Dumping the contents simply into the GameData folder (as with other mods) doesn't seem to be right, and neither does the Squad folder inside the zip fit in any way into the directory structure of the Squad Folder in the GameData directory. Also, quite a few directories in there are empty or contain files that, well, don't really make a lot of sense intuitively. I'd be very grateful for pointers.

2) This is, as I said before, not the first time I try to install it (it's now the third in total). First was a MS18 version, where the stretchy tanks didn't stretch at all (they were kinda stuck in 0.625m size). Now with MS19 I suddenly lack the Explorer and Stayputnik Missions (which logically leads to a very limited chance to gain research points). Any idea what's wrong?

I tried to follow the instructions to the letter, and after doing it thrice so far I dare say that there might be something missing in the instructions that people who have done it a few dozen times do by default without considering that the information needs to be said. Sadly, I'm not one of these people.

Is there any chance that someone who knows how it should work takes it upon himself to try to do a clean install to see whether I'm just dumb or whether something is missing now? I also noticed a considerable difference inthe MS18 and MS19 package, could it possibly be that something is missing?

Install all mods suggested for MS19 with realism overhaul fixes, inside MS19 zip is "RPL_Tweak_Pack" folder, place this folder in GameData folder, that should do it. Let me know if that does it for you

[MedievalNerd]

Hey MedievalNerd, I had some free time today and tried out your tree. I'm loving it so far - it really adds a whole different element to KSP.

Nice work, and thanks to those who helped out with the patches and fixes.

I know you said you didn't like planes, but have you ever considered adding a historic element regarding planes as another form of 'science'?

If possible, velocity used as a parameter requirement/condition could make for some interesting missions. The realistic jet turbine mod might add enough realism to make stuff like this a considerable challenge.

Just to throw some ideas out there:

- Transonic data collection.

- Bell X-1 type mission to break the sound barrier. Collect data @ > mach 1.

- Bell X-2 type mission to reach high-supersonic speeds. Collect data between mach 2-3.

- Aerojet General X-8 type mission. Collect data in upper atmosphere ( ~60 km).

- X-11/X-12 type missions as test beds for the Atlas. Sub-orbital test flights w/ dummy warhead.

- X-15 type mission. Collect data at hypersonic speeds (Mach 5-10). Exceed 80km for kerbalnaught status.

- Lockheed X-17 - Coast to 160km Ap, reenter ~mach 15. High-mach reentry testing.

- X-20: Similar to Mercury and Gemini, but with the capability of gliding to earth and horizontal landing (like an early space shuttle).

- X-30: SSTO

- X-43: Hypersonic scramjet platform (assuming we get scramjets at one point) ~Mach 10.

- HyperSoar: Mach 12 passenger plane designed to skip off the atmosphere.

- U2 type mission : long-duration high-altitude subsonic reconnaissance

- A-12/SR-71 type mission: long duration high-altitude supersonic reconnaissance.

Those are definitely some really interesting ideas, but considering my background and limited time. I want to push from Bumper on up first. Once I reach a beta release, then things might have stabilized enough to make some last design decisions about sciene & planes. But please don't hold your breath on this, there is miles and miles of things to do for RPL to get it to Beta even just focusing on earth sub-orbitals and up.

That's a sweet list though!

[Sternface]

I have to admit that I either make some terrible mistake when trying to install things, or something is amiss.

First of all, I wiped my KSP install prior to trying to install this mod, just to be sure there are no old configs messing with it. Still... somehow I can't get things done right.

1) The install instructions tell me to "#2 - Download and install RPL MS19! (Merge the GameData folder in the zip into your KSP folder)". I downloaded the rar provided in the link, but there is no GameData folder in the zip. Dumping the contents simply into the GameData folder (as with other mods) doesn't seem to be right, and neither does the Squad folder inside the zip fit in any way into the directory structure of the Squad Folder in the GameData directory. Also, quite a few directories in there are empty or contain files that, well, don't really make a lot of sense intuitively. I'd be very grateful for pointers.

2) This is, as I said before, not the first time I try to install it (it's now the third in total). First was a MS18 version, where the stretchy tanks didn't stretch at all (they were kinda stuck in 0.625m size). Now with MS19 I suddenly lack the Explorer and Stayputnik Missions (which logically leads to a very limited chance to gain research points). Any idea what's wrong?

I tried to follow the instructions to the letter, and after doing it thrice so far I dare say that there might be something missing in the instructions that people who have done it a few dozen times do by default without considering that the information needs to be said. Sadly, I'm not one of these people.

Is there any chance that someone who knows how it should work takes it upon himself to try to do a clean install to see whether I'm just dumb or whether something is missing now? I also noticed a considerable difference inthe MS18 and MS19 package, could it possibly be that something is missing?

I installed it today and it worked fine. Try reading from HERE to the end of the thread. There were quite a few changes and .cfg's I had to add to make it work.

[Sternface]

Those are definitely some really interesting ideas, but considering my background and limited time. I want to push from Bumper on up first. Once I reach a beta release, then things might have stabilized enough to make some last design decisions about sciene & planes. But please don't hold your breath on this, there is miles and miles of things to do for RPL to get it to Beta even just focusing on earth sub-orbitals and up.

That's a sweet list though!

For sure. Reading over this thread it's pretty clear you have a full plate+ lol. I really need to learn to code

[MedievalNerd]

I installed it today and it worked fine. Try reading from HERE to the end of the thread. There were quite a few changes and .cfg's I had to add to make it work.

I think I'll also make an installation video to get RPL to RSS/RO working condition. The madness must stop!

Also, good news! Brooklyn666 & RedV8ar's patches will be integrated into the RO package. So a little less madness. (Not sure when NathanKell will have time to do this though, just a thing to look forward to!)

Edited April 25, 2014 by MedievalNerd

[Guest]

Hey MedievalNerd, I had some free time today and tried out your tree. I'm loving it so far - it really adds a whole different element to KSP.

Nice work, and thanks to those who helped out with the patches and fixes.

I know you said you didn't like planes, but have you ever considered adding a historic element regarding planes as another form of 'science'?

If possible, velocity used as a parameter requirement/condition could make for some interesting missions. The realistic jet turbine mod might add enough realism to make stuff like this a considerable challenge.

Just to throw some ideas out there:

- Transonic data collection.

- Bell X-1 type mission to break the sound barrier. Collect data @ > mach 1.

- Bell X-2 type mission to reach high-supersonic speeds. Collect data between mach 2-3.

- Aerojet General X-8 type mission. Collect data in upper atmosphere ( ~60 km).

- X-11/X-12 type missions as test beds for the Atlas. Sub-orbital test flights w/ dummy warhead.

- X-15 type mission. Collect data at hypersonic speeds (Mach 5-10). Exceed 80km for kerbalnaught status.

- Lockheed X-17 - Coast to 160km Ap, reenter ~mach 15. High-mach reentry testing.

- X-20: Similar to Mercury and Gemini, but with the capability of gliding to earth and horizontal landing (like an early space shuttle).

- X-30: SSTO

- X-43: Hypersonic scramjet platform (assuming we get scramjets at one point) ~Mach 10.

- HyperSoar: Mach 12 passenger plane designed to skip off the atmosphere.

- U2 type mission : long-duration high-altitude subsonic reconnaissance

- A-12/SR-71 type mission: long duration high-altitude supersonic reconnaissance.

This is a great idea! i think that a few super/hyper sonic tests would be great! although i do not know if the jets in stock/AJE can get to hyper sonic speeds (but rocket powered planes could... like early hyper sonic real life flights), I think that the "BTEngines" merlins/scramjets would be needed (or those plus the jets from B9 would be needed) to get to hyper sonic speeds (mach 10+). Although i would like to see any tests with the term "warhead", dummy or otherwise, replaced by something abit less warfare based.

All in all only 2 parts (scramjet/merlin's) really need be added from the BT engine pack and i believe they are RO fixed by the AJE realism pack (anyone know for sure?). The real trick would be getting a jet to the altitude/speed where a scramjet starts to become useful for suborbital hops. I am also unsure how DRE survivable current cockpits, fuselages, wings, ect and fuel tanks are for hypersonic reentries. I would assume the stock atmospheric testing nose cap (or, even better, a plane mk1/mk2 cockpit or the small stack remote probe core) could be used to house the custom experiments

EDIT (reading MN's commit he does have a full plate, but he "may" be open to being handed finished products)

Great thinking Sternface! I'm no "real modder" but i have got this MM thing sorta understood, enough to copy/paste/edit what currently exists lol. If you want to create and submit an already made set of custom experiments to MN for review i would be willing to give a hand, although i dont know how to restrict the tests to "planes" (like to prevent someone from using a sounding rocket to complete tests) maybe there is a way to include a part restriction to the test like "tubro-jet required". But honor system could used, we would only be "cheating" ourselves if someone chose to use a rocket for these experiments.

From what i understand only a sciencedef entry is needed for the test (any of the custom experiments could be used as a template to create a new experiment) and a data recorder module and custom experiment module for the part used (once again the existing custom probes can be used as a "how to" template). As for adding the requirements of altitude (past a situation like high atmosphere or near space) and speed... i dont know how to do that (with near space now being 180km I doubt thats an option for an early suborbital plane). Although thats the great thing about the KSP forums...someone knows how too more than likley and would be willing to explain it

but for the "X-1 to X-8" like test (all condensed into 1 reading/1 sample for simplicities sake) using the part Mk1 cockpit > if you were to set the needed situation to "high atmosphere" i doubt that could be reached without breaking the sound barrier anyways

for the "X-17, X-20, X-43" like tests (all condensed into 1 reading/1 sample for simplicities sake) using the part Mk2 cockpit > if you were to set the needed situation to "near space" (180km) that would be fairly close

If someone shares info on how to set speed/altitudes requirements (as in how to set mach 10 speeds or 60km altitude as a requirement) the other tests could be created aswell. But seeing as everything would be mostly "past the plane phase" (other than skylon like SSTO's) i think 2 plane tests would do, unless a shuttle experiment was created using mk3 cockpit as base part.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Guest

[Sternface]

Although i would like to see any tests with the term "warhead", dummy or otherwise, replaced by something abit less warfare based.

I suppose you could deliver a 1,300kg pizza to someone half-way around the world. Guaranteed hot and under 30 minutes

Scramjets would be cool, but like you said, it's totally doable with early rockets (like IRL).

[MedievalNerd]

I love your tech tree. It is awesome! I do have one question.

I read that "In the current state of MFT, you NEED TO manually increase your tech level to match your highest researched tier. IE, tech level 0 rocket fuel engines need to be set to level 1 once you've unlocked Rocket Fuel Engines TL1. And so forth." I think I just figure this out. You do it in the action configuration screen, right?

Thanks

Not sure if anyone ever answered you. But yes, you select the engine on your craft, go to the action config screen. And you'll see a little grey box with info about Real Fuels in it. Once I fix the tech levels they should be limited to the nodes you've researched in the RPL tech tree.

Feel free to ask other questions!

[MedievalNerd]

I suppose you could deliver a 1,300kg pizza to someone half-way around the world. Guaranteed hot and under 30 minutes

Scramjets would be cool, but like you said, it's totally doable with early rockets (like IRL).

Hmmm, what does a 1,300kg pizza even look like!? O_O And how much would it cost to be delivered in a craft like that. LOL

Imagine the oven... Or perhaps you could put Jets in a strategic circle and have them hit their engines towards the giant mass of pizza.

[Sternface]

Imagine the oven... =

Who needs an oven? Connect a heatpipe to the heat shield

But I like your jet idea better. If we're delivering pizza by intercontinental ballistic missile, might as well go big

Rube Goldberg has nothing on KSP

[Guest]

Pizza's = $13,000 delivery = $600,000

Pizza's delivered on the kangaroo route (London to Sidney) in under 30 minutes = priceless

[MedievalNerd]

I already got a NSC on my bank account today, don't you guys charge this on me! D:

[NathanKell]

Sternface: adding a velocity check for situations would be interesting, yeah!

Quick note: X-20 was similar to Mercury in that it carried one person for a few orbits. It was similar to Orion in that it massed seven freaking tons dry, and ten wet. Which would be why it was canceled, since it would offer "Mercury with a tiny bit of cargo" in 1965, and need a more powerful booster than Gemini to reach orbit.

It was mostly based on the hilariously optimistic estimates of what reentry heating would be like that Saenger, and followers, made; and even then it's not super-clear that DynaSoar *was* shielded enough, IIRC.

MedievalNerd: I plan to release RO v5 in synch with MS19b, so...

Aazard: I've pushed an X-15-alike (with an AJE ramjet rather than the rocket engines shown here) to about Mach 5.5, whereupon things start melting. Bare hypersonic is possible with ramjets, but after that you do need a scramjet. On examination I don't believe AJE supports scramjets, however. pWings need some kind of active shielding; cockpits and and fuselage pieces probably need a buff, too, although not that much of one; KSP reentries are in the hypersonic range.

The data recorder code *would* need some more code in order to limit to recording data above certain velocities (or rather, above one velocity and below another); FlyingHigh could be reached with balloons, and also with subsonic aircraft (c.f. U-2).

The way the data recorder currently works, it is dependent on the game's own code for situations, thus you only have the basic 4 in-flight situations, no discrimination based on velocity or anything else.

Sternface: Heh, that reminds me of the various Minuteman (etc) patches and graffiti.

[MedievalNerd]

MedievalNerd: I plan to release RO v5 in synch with MS19b, so...

/dances

Awesome my friend!

I'm sick as a dog this morning, but I think it's clearing up. Who the hell wants to be sick for the weekend.

And as for the plane experiments, shouldn't 'too' hard to make custom modules for that. I'll give it a shot once MS19 is ironed out good and proper!

[Visari]

About the planes: keep in mind that many people consider planes incredibly hard in ksp. That's because they are.

While some may love the idea of planes (I support plane experiments fully), some may not like the idea. I would suggest keeping the plane experiments optional, especially if you choose to balance them with AJE (ever tried to merely reach mach 4 with just AJE's jet engines?).

With MCE, it's fairly easy to keep the plane mission tree separate from the rest, while with custom experiments, it's hard to keep balance for all players due to some skilled pilots exploiting the science from the atmospheric flights, while others shun it and try to avoid any atmospheric level flight altogether.