[WIP][TechTree @ 0.23.5] - [MS19e] - Realistic Progression LITE

[pleblius]

So I've got a couple of problems that I've been trying to solve and I'm not sure where the issue is.

The first is that I've got several tech nodes that are completely empty. Here are the ones that I've unlocked so far that have no parts in them:

Advanced SRBs, Bio Sample Recovery, Venera 2, Mars 2, Remote Sample Analysis, and Unmanned Sample Recovery. That's only as far as I've unlocked since I started over after the updates yesterday.

Another problem is that the stretchy tanks that are included in the starting node aren't appearing in the VAB; specifically the ones that have numbers in the titles, e.g. KI-500 Stretchable Fuel Tank, KI-625 Stretchable Fuel Tank, etc. All the other tanks, i.e. the ones that do not have numbers in their names, appear in the VAB just fine.

Anybody have any suggestions?

[denaiph]

so how much ram is needed with everything installed? i have 10 gb of ram and still seem to be unable to load everything (i am using windows) trying to do it with the texture reducer now.

[Ceribia]

Using 19b I'm having a problem with unlocking the wider stretchytanks. After granting myself a ton of science I unlocked the whole tech tree and they still won't stretch wider than 2m. Has anyone else run into this?

Edited May 2, 2014 by Ceribia
Typo

[TheOrqwithVagrant]

Nope,

It's intended to fake the fact that the probe was solar powered. It has enough EC to last the duration of the historical mission. Considering I'm not able to have data collected in time acceleration I'll most likely strip it down the road. Check out the part .cfg file. You'll see a // note explaining the reasoning behind the increase.

Probes need EC overhaul for balance. The ones with less EC are the ones that need to be boosted.

If that's the intent, then wouldn't it be more sensible to simply add ModuleDeployableSolarPanel panel functionality to the probe core and/or make its power-draw super low? Either seem to be less balance-breaking than making an early probe a super-battery. The extra tiny size of this probe core makes it attractive for other things than its "intended" purpose, but the way things are now, you'd end up with "cheaty" levels of charge by building a multi-probe around this core.

I really like the custom experiments, and the way they make progression "accomplishment-based" rather than the "grind" of most other trees including stock. However I'm not entirely fond of the way it's currently implemented, turning probe cores into "single use" parts. Sure, you can re-use the probe cores just like their "stock" versions - the custom experiments just won't be usable - but once you start doing things that turn the probe into a "super-part" that is better at something than the very best dedicated parts for the purpose, way up in the tree, even that freedom to be creative is broken by the unabalancing.

This is by far my favorite tree (and I'm now playing it the way it's intended with RSS/RO/RF and the whole shebang), but one things that does bother me a little is that it feels like this tree is becoming increasingly focused on replicating historical probes/missions, rather than providing "realistic" and challenging, yet creatively open progression, and the super-battery-probe seems symptomatic of this. One suggestion for the future would be to keep a set of relatively "neutral" probe cores that can be picked for their geometry, weight, and tolerances, and the custom experiments can be added as "tweakables", perhaps with side-effects such as any custom experiment for Jupiter/Jool or its inner moons adding mass due to rad shielding, etc.

[MedievalNerd]

If that's the intent, then wouldn't it be more sensible to simply add ModuleDeployableSolarPanel panel functionality to the probe core and/or make its power-draw super low? Either seem to be less balance-breaking than making an early probe a super-battery. The extra tiny size of this probe core makes it attractive for other things than its "intended" purpose, but the way things are now, you'd end up with "cheaty" levels of charge by building a multi-probe around this core.

I really like the custom experiments, and the way they make progression "accomplishment-based" rather than the "grind" of most other trees including stock. However I'm not entirely fond of the way it's currently implemented, turning probe cores into "single use" parts. Sure, you can re-use the probe cores just like their "stock" versions - the custom experiments just won't be usable - but once you start doing things that turn the probe into a "super-part" that is better at something than the very best dedicated parts for the purpose, way up in the tree, even that freedom to be creative is broken by the unabalancing.

This is by far my favorite tree (and I'm now playing it the way it's intended with RSS/RO/RF and the whole shebang), but one things that does bother me a little is that it feels like this tree is becoming increasingly focused on replicating historical probes/missions, rather than providing "realistic" and challenging, yet creatively open progression, and the super-battery-probe seems symptomatic of this. One suggestion for the future would be to keep a set of relatively "neutral" probe cores that can be picked for their geometry, weight, and tolerances, and the custom experiments can be added as "tweakables", perhaps with side-effects such as any custom experiment for Jupiter/Jool or its inner moons adding mass due to rad shielding, etc.

At this stage worrying about balance is a bit jumping the gun. Please remind yourself that it's still in alpha stage. Meaning not everything is implemented, and what is implemented is probably not balanced or subject to change.

We can't add the solar panel module to it due to the fact that it's a sphere. I'm a bit tired so I don't recall the precise reasons behind that, but it's more complicated than simply adding the module.

Don't worry about the historical only focus. I'm focusing on the historical probes first, to give a basis of progression. In each tech line you'll have 'non-historical' probes and "missions".

And yes, I'd love this whole tweakables thing. That was something I thought about a long time ago. Problem is writing the code for it. Or were you offering to write it?

In the end you don't need to worry about 'super parts', the end goal is to homogenize everything. But one shouldn't expect a balanced experience while playing alpha versions of a mod, using countless other mods that are also in flux/evolution.

We'll get there, but it'll require a bit of patience from us all.

[Guest]

Thanks Aazard!

EDIT:

So, the next hotfix is sort of being delayed. But there are some good reasons!

* I've implemented the antenna/dishes tech levels as per Brooklyn666's .cfg file that is included in RO.

* I'm fixed some mismatches of engine tech levels.

* Added RLA (RCS & Engines)

* Added Space Shuttle Engines. (ONLY oms and double-oms)

* Fixed more experiment issues. Data recorders being restricted at 100, when experiment costs 500, etc.

I need to fiddle those new engines & RCS modules into the tree, and we'll be good to go!

As soon as all the main issues are ironed out, I'll start popping out experiments to fill in the gaps! As well as start exploring how I'll be implementing photo & video experiments.

Hi MN,

Just so i know what parts you are adding:

All RLA stockalike engines and RCS? from http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/24593-WIP-RLA-Stockalike-0-9-4-released-27th-November

and the "klockheed-martin" (space shuttle) engine pack? (just the OMS/double OMS engines from "klockheed-martin" mod?) from http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/55985-0-23-5-20-Apr-Space-Shuttle-Engines-V1-3-New-FX-and-stackable-x0-OMS

[MedievalNerd]

Using 19b I'm having a problem with unlocking the wider the stretchytanks. After granting myself a ton of science I unlocked the whole tech tree and they still won't stretch wider than 2m. Has anyone else run into this?

Howdy,

I'll do a round of testing on the sizing of tanks before releasing 19c, which addresses the bulk of the leftover issues. D:

Been away for too long, too much changed, so I'm playing catch up at each turn.

Cheers,

- - - Updated - - -

Hi MN,

Just so i know what parts you are adding:

All RLA stockalike engines and RCS? from http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/24593-WIP-RLA-Stockalike-0-9-4-released-27th-November

and the "klockheed-martin" (space shuttle) engine pack? (just the OMS/double OMS engines from "klockheed-martin" mod?) from http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/55985-0-23-5-20-Apr-Space-Shuttle-Engines-V1-3-New-FX-and-stackable-x0-OMS

Yes, that is correct. OMS & DOUBLE OMS only for Klockheed-martin mod.

[MedievalNerd]

So I've got a couple of problems that I've been trying to solve and I'm not sure where the issue is.

The first is that I've got several tech nodes that are completely empty. Here are the ones that I've unlocked so far that have no parts in them:

Advanced SRBs, Bio Sample Recovery, Venera 2, Mars 2, Remote Sample Analysis, and Unmanned Sample Recovery. That's only as far as I've unlocked since I started over after the updates yesterday.

Another problem is that the stretchy tanks that are included in the starting node aren't appearing in the VAB; specifically the ones that have numbers in the titles, e.g. KI-500 Stretchable Fuel Tank, KI-625 Stretchable Fuel Tank, etc. All the other tanks, i.e. the ones that do not have numbers in their names, appear in the VAB just fine.

Anybody have any suggestions?

Howdy,

Yup empty nodes was part of the release notes. Which I never got to update the OP with. My bad.

As for the engines, yes. Isn't there a note in the node saying it's empty but to use to upgrade your engines? Might only have written that for liquid engines. D: My bad again!

For the stretchy tanks, I think they aren't meant to be used but are still there to support old craft files. Is there A stretchy tank? I'm seeing other posters mentioning they can't get past 2M. But that there is one usable though.

I'll be checking this out before 19c. Which is basically almost done.

Probably going to cast a net out to people who'd like to be part of a small volunteer test group. That way we could nail down the obvious issues prior to releases and have less hotfixes.

Cheers,

[MedievalNerd]

so how much ram is needed with everything installed? i have 10 gb of ram and still seem to be unable to load everything (i am using windows) trying to do it with the texture reducer now.

Since for now KSP is a 32bit program, you can only use up to ~3.5GB of ram or so. Using the texture reducer I'm getting ~3GB while in-game.

If you are still having issues prune out parts you don't need. Doing that requires to be a bit familiar with .cfg files just so that you know what you are deleting.

[Guest]

Howdy,

Yup empty nodes was part of the release notes. Which I never got to update the OP with. My bad.

As for the engines, yes. Isn't there a note in the node saying it's empty but to use to upgrade your engines? Might only have written that for liquid engines. D: My bad again!

For the stretchy tanks, I think they aren't meant to be used but are still there to support old craft files. Is there A stretchy tank? I'm seeing other posters mentioning they can't get past 2M. But that there is one usable though.

I'll be checking this out before 19c. Which is basically almost done.

Probably going to cast a net out to people who'd like to be part of a small volunteer test group. That way we could nail down the obvious issues prior to releases and have less hotfixes.

Cheers,

I think nathan posted a fix for stretchy's and procedural fairings to be unlocked to max sizes from game start... trying to remember it all makes my head spin, but i am 90% sure he did.

To everyone... soon enough all the installation pains should be a thing of the past....i heard a rumour that MN was going to make a video of taking a stock KSP install and going over the steps of adding the needed mods and fixes to make it a correctly configured RSS/RO/RPL KSP with all the trimmings

of course lets let MN and nathan finish their fixes and updates...these things dont do and test themselves you know lol

If you have the time and will to dig through about 4 threads for the answers they ARE THERE, i'm no expert with KSP, mods or anything really...just someone interested with some time each day to read the forum...if i can do it, anyone can (if your a "real nut" MM patches are not that hard to read and edit any "issues"...its easier than the work the modders do for us...and its healthy to learn if you want to play a heavily modded KSP, like everyone here is basically doing)

Edited May 1, 2014 by Guest

[Ivan Ivanovich]

so how much ram is needed with everything installed? i have 10 gb of ram and still seem to be unable to load everything (i am using windows) trying to do it with the texture reducer now.

Anything beyond 3.7gb of ram is not being used by KSP, since it still relies on the 32bit Unity Engine (IIRC). Anyway, whatever the reason, if you go beyond 3.7Gig, it's crash time.

Aside of using texture reduction, what works for me (and pushes it down to about 2.2Gig of ram used) is using half-sized textures. You can either change that in the settings page of KSP or, if you can't launch it anymore because it keeps crashing, you can alter the settings.cfg file manually. Find the line

TEXTURE_QUALITY = 0

and change it to

TEXTURE_QUALITY = 1

[Creature]

I did a reboot of my career mode play mission reports (link in my sig) and tried my best to document the whole installing process if someone wants a some kind of written recap. Everything seems to be working, but I just started so take it with a grain of salt.

Something for the future releases, I think it might be a good idea to be more clear about the required mods and are they absolutely needed for the whole thing to work or are they something that you just "should" use to get the intended gameplay experience. For example, if I were to completely leave NovaPunch out, could I still play as usual, just missing a part or two or does the whole game implode? Because right now I'm swamped already with engines right at the beginning so I could probably do with less part packs.

One problem I'm having with treeloader is that I installed Interstellar and even after loading the RPL tree, the loader keeps telling me there's an update on interstellar tree. I even updated it once before choosing the RPL tree, but at every restart the same prompt appears. Now the real problem is that if I now install the update even after playing a while, it overwrites my choises and installs the interstellar tree, wiping my current selection. I've never had this before and KSPI hasn't been updated in a month so was just wondering if it's a problem with RPL or treeloader or if it's happening to others?

[SlimeCrusher]

Because right now I'm swamped already with engines right at the beginning so I could probably do with less part packs.

One solution (I think it's planned, isn't it?) is having multiple mini-techtrees for different styles, for example some may just play as the Soviets, though only getting soviet engines, soviet probes, etc... Others may want to play as the US, so they would only have US engines, US probes and US stuff, and maybe add Germany and China too? The only problem would be the year, but it can be sorted like starting as the US with the WAC Corporal, after that ermm... Whatever is next and after Sputnik 1 we get to choose to continue Soviet and launch Stayputnik 2 or be the US and launch the Stayputnik (aka Explorer 1)

Edit: If you ever consider making this idea a reality, this can help a bit: http://www.thespacerace.com/timeline/

Edited May 1, 2014 by SlimeCrusher

[Ratzap]

One problem I'm having with treeloader is that I installed Interstellar and even after loading the RPL tree, the loader keeps telling me there's an update on interstellar tree. I even updated it once before choosing the RPL tree, but at every restart the same prompt appears. Now the real problem is that if I now install the update even after playing a while, it overwrites my choises and installs the interstellar tree, wiping my current selection. I've never had this before and KSPI hasn't been updated in a month so was just wondering if it's a problem with RPL or treeloader or if it's happening to others?

It's interstellar and pretty irritating. Try and ignore it.

[Guest]

It's interstellar and pretty irritating. Try and ignore it.

do this:

go to path "Kerbal Space Program\GameData\WarpPlugin"

find file "tree.cfg"

edit line

VERSION
{
	id = 1
}

to be

VERSION
{
	id = 0
}

this will stop update request... which is rpl destructive (bad choice of how to handle updates IMHO) , i do not think it will have any negative effects

Edited May 1, 2014 by Guest

[MedievalNerd]

One solution (I think it's planned, isn't it?) is having multiple mini-techtrees for different styles, for example some may just play as the Soviets, though only getting soviet engines, soviet probes, etc... Others may want to play as the US, so they would only have US engines, US probes and US stuff, and maybe add Germany and China too? The only problem would be the year, but it can be sorted like starting as the US with the WAC Corporal, after that ermm... Whatever is next and after Sputnik 1 we get to choose to continue Soviet and launch Stayputnik 2 or be the US and launch the Stayputnik (aka Explorer 1)

Edit: If you ever consider making this idea a reality, this can help a bit: http://www.thespacerace.com/timeline/

If you mean having multiple 'live' tech trees. That will never happen. I am planning to have a RFTS & Real Fuels Trees, but other than that nothing is 'planned'.

If you meant fragmenting everything into seperate 'mini-trees' within a single tree. That would probably start being a little messy and/or confusing. Not to mention you'd have to have enough parts for each nation to warrant a separate tree. The tree is already quite massive, and is still only a fraction of it's intended 'final' size. IE, the exploration section of the tree is stopping at Mars, and only have 3 nodes per body. Manned exploration is even more compressed/abridged right now.

I did a reboot of my career mode play mission reports (link in my sig) and tried my best to document the whole installing process if someone wants a some kind of written recap. Everything seems to be working, but I just started so take it with a grain of salt.

Something for the future releases, I think it might be a good idea to be more clear about the required mods and are they absolutely needed for the whole thing to work or are they something that you just "should" use to get the intended gameplay experience. For example, if I were to completely leave NovaPunch out, could I still play as usual, just missing a part or two or does the whole game implode? Because right now I'm swamped already with engines right at the beginning so I could probably do with less part packs.

One problem I'm having with treeloader is that I installed Interstellar and even after loading the RPL tree, the loader keeps telling me there's an update on interstellar tree. I even updated it once before choosing the RPL tree, but at every restart the same prompt appears. Now the real problem is that if I now install the update even after playing a while, it overwrites my choises and installs the interstellar tree, wiping my current selection. I've never had this before and KSPI hasn't been updated in a month so was just wondering if it's a problem with RPL or treeloader or if it's happening to others?

I'm trying my best to at the same time have a thorough but summarized installation instructions. At some point it'll become a full page post just for installation. It's a WIP but we'll get there.

[Ratzap]

this will stop update request... which is pointless and destructive (bad choice of how to handle updates IMHO) , i do not think it will have any negative effects

Lovely ta.

[MedievalNerd]

do this:

go to path "Kerbal Space Program\GameData\WarpPlugin"

find file "tree.cfg"

edit line

VERSION
{
	id = 1
}

to be

VERSION
{
	id = 0
}

this will stop update request... which is rpl destructive (bad choice of how to handle updates IMHO) , i do not think it will have any negative effects

Added this to OP, good stuff!

Edited May 2, 2014 by MedievalNerd

[Guest]

lol "the wondrous".... thats better than lots of other things i've been called, i'll take it!

[NathanKell]

Ivan Ivanovich: ATM recommends *not* changing the settings menu's texture quality slider (it interferes). Instead, it's best to open up ActiveTextureManagement/config.cfg and adjust settings there. In particular, increase the number after scale = and after scale_normals =

(Aggressive starts at 2, aka half-size; if you want to reduce father, rather than also setting KSP's texture quality to half size [and effectively getting quarter-size, with some inefficiency] change scale =2 to scale = 4, and change scale_normals = whatever to scale_normals = 4

You can also set absolute caps, like max_size (set it to 256, perhaps, rather than increasing the divisor too much) or max_size_normals (set it to 128 if you really want to free up lots of RAM for least quality loss).

Finally, besides increased quality, a major reason for doing the scaling via ATM rather than KSP is that ATM will cache its rescales; your first load of KSP after making a change will be slow, by all subsequent loads will be super-fast; if you use KSP's own reduction, it has to reduce the textures every time you load the game.

Aazard: Nice! Did not know about that tweak. Thanks!

Medieval Nerd, I think you meant RftS and Real *Engines*?

(And please remove the TEXTURE_QUALITY thing from OP and replace with the above. )

[MedievalNerd]

Ivan Ivanovich: ATM recommends *not* changing the settings menu's texture quality slider (it interferes). Instead, it's best to open up ActiveTextureManagement/config.cfg and adjust settings there. In particular, increase the number after scale = and after scale_normals =

(Aggressive starts at 2, aka half-size; if you want to reduce father, rather than also setting KSP's texture quality to half size [and effectively getting quarter-size, with some inefficiency] change scale =2 to scale = 4, and change scale_normals = whatever to scale_normals = 4

You can also set absolute caps, like max_size (set it to 256, perhaps, rather than increasing the divisor too much) or max_size_normals (set it to 128 if you really want to free up lots of RAM for least quality loss).

Finally, besides increased quality, a major reason for doing the scaling via ATM rather than KSP is that ATM will cache its rescales; your first load of KSP after making a change will be slow, by all subsequent loads will be super-fast; if you use KSP's own reduction, it has to reduce the textures every time you load the game.

Aazard: Nice! Did not know about that tweak. Thanks!

Medieval Nerd, I think you meant RftS and Real *Engines*?

(And please remove the TEXTURE_QUALITY thing from OP and replace with the above. )

DOh... thanks Nathan.

Removed and yes, I meant 'real engines'. That's what happens when you post when you are 'real tired'. Go realism!

[Ivan Ivanovich]

OK, I didn't use ATM atm (fun with acronyms!). Thanks for the hint, I tried ATM instead and it works as well, so probably less hassle than working something out myself.

[romie]

man i still cant get nothing to orbit i think this is to much for me but am still trying.(don't want to give up)

[griffin247]

ok so loving all this realism stuff and real solar system and actutly have it working right , or rather i did .

its seems the wac experiments dont want to work anymore all i can do is collect the data , the experiments dont even show up anymore .

its a new career and am at the right height. and mod manager is running no errors etc so iam baffled. any ideas please ?

[MedievalNerd]

man i still cant get nothing to orbit i think this is to much for me but am still trying.(don't want to give up)

Do you use MechJeb? If not, you should at least use it to get your rocket stats in the VAB. You'll need ~8000DV/s to get into orbit. The DV required is very dependent on your ascent profile, and how well you execute it.

ok so loving all this realism stuff and real solar system and actutly have it working right , or rather i did .

its seems the wac experiments dont want to work anymore all i can do is collect the data , the experiments dont even show up anymore .

its a new career and am at the right height. and mod manager is running no errors etc so iam baffled. any ideas please ?

Weird, have you already performed the experiment once? I once the experiment is completed, you can't do it again.

Or did you hear about the altitude changes? InSpaceLow now only starts at 180KM.