[0.23.5] Realism Overhaul: ROv5.2 + Modlist for RSS 6/30/14

[SpacedInvader]

Ok. I will P.M. you when it's done. A short conic Stretchy or PP tank could be used as an adapter between FusTek and other parts. Btw, the FusTek parts are 4,4 and 2,2 meters in diameter now.

There is at least one mod called something like "universal docking port", maybe you can take a look there and see if it works? I can't make models or parts, but if you can, give it a go!

Doesn't setting their sizes so large prevent any of the normal sized (even for RO) docking ports from fitting correctly? My thinking is that they should be rescaled to 1.6 like the pods to match up. This all being said, I'm currently debating with myself whether or not I really want RO. I do much enjoy the added realism, but the size change often means that parts are just not going to work with the new system until someone goes through and spends the time to make them all fit correctly simply because 99% of all parts packs are built for the stock system. This is only compounded with complex packs like FusTek or Chaka Monkey which don't scale well. Even with a small to large adapter like we're talking about, you could end up with a 4m diameter pod docking to a 2.5m diameter space station part, which is just as unrealistic as if it was all 2.5m.

EDIT: On this note, how hard would it be to build a version of this mod that has the tweaks to everything except the part sizes?

Edited June 8, 2014 by SpacedInvader

[BombastixderTeutone]

Can I somehow displace the COM of the decoupler to compensate for the off center COM of the capsule?

Edit: I just found a way to offset the COM in the configs. Now I just need to know íf there is a way to manipulate that ingame so I dont have to restart the game so oftern for the tweaking

Edited June 8, 2014 by BombastixderTeutone

[RedAV8R]

Doesn't setting their sizes so large prevent any of the normal sized (even for RO) docking ports from fitting correctly? My thinking is that they should be rescaled to 1.6 like the pods to match up. This all being said, I'm currently debating with myself whether or not I really want RO. I do much enjoy the added realism, but the size change often means that parts are just not going to work with the new system until someone goes through and spends the time to make them all fit correctly simply because 99% of all parts packs are built for the stock system. This is only compounded with complex packs like FusTek or Chaka Monkey which don't scale well. Even with a small to large adapter like we're talking about, you could end up with a 4m diameter pod docking to a 2.5m diameter space station part, which is just as unrealistic as if it was all 2.5m.

EDIT: On this note, how hard would it be to build a version of this mod that has the tweaks to everything except the part sizes?

Well...my plans...as my parts become part of RO, is that docking ports will be sized appropriately to their real life counterpart, AND only allowed to dock to objects that are the same. For instance LazTek Dragon v1 will have a CBM, sized to the appropriate 2m diameter, which will also match/fit the SDHI IACBM also sized at 2m like the CBM. Apollo docking ports only work with other Apollo docking ports, unfortuantely at this time you can dock to probes together, but until a custom plug-in for docking becomes available, deal with it. Gemini can only dock with the Agena Target Vehicle, etc. I'm going to do the best I can to keep this going. I need to talk to Nathan but I'd like to turn one of the stock docking ports, and others of that general look/design into the new NASA Docking System. Trial will be the other SDHI docking port that'll fit on top of the Taurus (now Orion) pod.

[RedAV8R]

Can I somehow displace the COM of the decoupler to compensate for the off center COM of the capsule?

Edit: I just found a way to offset the COM in the configs. Now I just need to know íf there is a way to manipulate that ingame so I dont have to restart the game so oftern for the tweaking

I understand it's difficult to fly...but in real life, that is what gimbaling of engines does. Whatever engine you are using, try to use KM_Gimbal and set the trim (which can be done on the fly), this is much more realistic than artificially making things fly straight.

Case in point the Apollo Service Module Propulsion System automatically trimmed the gimbal to account for CG shifts through the flight.

[SpacedInvader]

Well...my plans...as my parts become part of RO, is that docking ports will be sized appropriately to their real life counterpart, AND only allowed to dock to objects that are the same. For instance LazTek Dragon v1 will have a CBM, sized to the appropriate 2m diameter, which will also match/fit the SDHI IACBM also sized at 2m like the CBM. Apollo docking ports only work with other Apollo docking ports, unfortuantely at this time you can dock to probes together, but until a custom plug-in for docking becomes available, deal with it. Gemini can only dock with the Agena Target Vehicle, etc. I'm going to do the best I can to keep this going. I need to talk to Nathan but I'd like to turn one of the stock docking ports, and others of that general look/design into the new NASA Docking System. Trial will be the other SDHI docking port that'll fit on top of the Taurus (now Orion) pod.

How difficult would it be to write a plugin that would work like a general scalar? Essentially, it would allow all parts to be upscaled from 2.5m to 4m without having to mess with scale / rescale values. My assumption here is that any part that is designed for the stock game, with the exception of maybe FASA and OLDD will alread conform to a final dimension of 1.25m or 2.5m, so a general scale of that final dimension would make everything the proper size without having to do it on a part by part basis.

Just a thought.

[BombastixderTeutone]

I understand it's difficult to fly...but in real life, that is what gimbaling of engines does. Whatever engine you are using, try to use KM_Gimbal and set the trim (which can be done on the fly), this is much more realistic than artificially making things fly straight.

Case in point the Apollo Service Module Propulsion System automatically trimmed the gimbal to account for CG shifts through the flight.

Ok thanks. I just found out I haven't even installed Km_Gimbal. On a sidenote, what does Km_Gimbal exactly do and what is Exsurgentengineer.dll

Edit: Spaceship works perfect now. The gimbal counteracts the torque. Many thanks RedAV8R

Edited June 8, 2014 by BombastixderTeutone

[coldblade2000]

Hey, what's the officially suported Life Support. I remember some discussion about it.

[RedAV8R]

How difficult would it be to write a plugin that would work like a general scalar? Essentially, it would allow all parts to be upscaled from 2.5m to 4m without having to mess with scale / rescale values. My assumption here is that any part that is designed for the stock game, with the exception of maybe FASA and OLDD will alread conform to a final dimension of 1.25m or 2.5m, so a general scale of that final dimension would make everything the proper size without having to do it on a part by part basis.

Just a thought.

This might work with some things, but it all depends on HOW things are modeled in the first place, everybody has their own way of doing the same thing, some ways are easier than others. I guess my question is, what is your goal? I like realism, that is what RO is all about, FusTek space station parts aren't built on some realistic scale, sure they are based on something, but he's got his own flare to it. There comes a point when some packs simply can't be done with the way things are modeled. Seriously if you have something that you'd like me to take a shot at, I can do. Otherwise, i think you are trying to cram everything into RO, and that is simply not how RO/RSS really works, maybe you would be best to skip RO and RSS and stick with stock based stuff.

[RedAV8R]

Ok thanks. I just found out I haven't even installed Km_Gimbal. On a sidenote, what does Km_Gimbal exactly do and what is Exsurgentengineer.dll

Edit: Spaceship works perfect now. The gimbal counteracts the torque. Many thanks RedAV8R

Good deal. KM_Gimbal is part of dtobi's Space Shuttle Engine Pack, it's a replacement gimbal module for the stock system, has many more options, and has become our go to gimbal module. Exsurgentengineer is a module by careo. I honestly don't know much as it's fallen back in development that I know of, nothing I use uses it, and it's not on my computer.

[RedAV8R]

Hey, what's the officially suported Life Support. I remember some discussion about it.

Well...nothing is 'official' but until asmi releases v2.0 of his ELCSS, I am currently setting up my RSS/RO configs to use TAC Life Support.

[ThorBeorn]

Doesn't setting their sizes so large prevent any of the normal sized (even for RO) docking ports from fitting correctly? My thinking is that they should be rescaled to 1.6 like the pods to match up.

Well the measurements (4,4 meter diameter) is based off of the real Harmony module of the ISS, and so is the parts weights etc as much as possible at least. FusTek comes with two docking/berthing ports now at 4,4 and 2,2 meters. These can ofcourse be fitted to any rocket and be used to dock. The other way would be to mount another dockingport to the FusTek part. Use surface attach or make an adapter with a PP cone, there are lots of possibilities. I you must place another dockingport right on the attatch node of a FusTek part, maybe use one of the endrings that comes with the mod. I don't see the problem actually.

This is only compounded with complex packs like FusTek or Chaka Monkey which don't scale well. Even with a small to large adapter like we're talking about, you could end up with a 4m diameter pod docking to a 2.5m diameter space station part, which is just as unrealistic as if it was all 2.5m.

I don't know what you mean with "don't scale well"? FusTek parts look really good at their current and realistic sizes. If anything a 4 meter pod sounds a bit on the large side, is that something you found in a mod supported by RO?

EDIT: On this note, how hard would it be to build a version of this mod that has the tweaks to everything except the part sizes?

It wouldn't be hard at all. But you would basically just end up with stock sized parts that weigh a lot more. Why not just play vanilla instead? Or maybe take a look at the 6.4 x Kerbol system, it sounds like it could be for you. WinterOwl/WhiteOwl has a nice YT series on that now, check it out.

[SpacedInvader]

This might work with some things, but it all depends on HOW things are modeled in the first place, everybody has their own way of doing the same thing, some ways are easier than others. I guess my question is, what is your goal? I like realism, that is what RO is all about, FusTek space station parts aren't built on some realistic scale, sure they are based on something, but he's got his own flare to it. There comes a point when some packs simply can't be done with the way things are modeled. Seriously if you have something that you'd like me to take a shot at, I can do. Otherwise, i think you are trying to cram everything into RO, and that is simply not how RO/RSS really works, maybe you would be best to skip RO and RSS and stick with stock based stuff.

On one hand, I do agree to an extent that not everything will work well with RO, but on the other hand holding a hard line that just because something isn't entirely realistic (eg KSP interstellar) it can't coexists coexist with RO/RSS is going to leave a great deal of content that is quite fun to play out in the cold. IMHO, I think a much better approach would be to put effort into balancing those mods to better represent what may be possible in the near and not so near future so that they can better fit with RSS/RO.

I should also point out that when the decision was made to resize parts for RO, you were also generating a demand for all parts to potentially need the same attention for at least some players.

Well the measurements (4,4 meter diameter) is based off of the real Harmony module of the ISS, and so is the parts weights etc as much as possible at least. FusTek comes with two docking/berthing ports now at 4,4 and 2,2 meters. These can ofcourse be fitted to any rocket and be used to dock. The other way would be to mount another dockingport to the FusTek part. Use surface attach or make an adapter with a PP cone, there are lots of possibilities. I you must place another dockingport right on the attatch node of a FusTek part, maybe use one of the endrings that comes with the mod. I don't see the problem actually.

I guess that solution didn't occur to me. The issue was always trying to mate the FusTek parts with other parts like Kosmos or station science. If what you mentioned will work for that, then it almost doesn't matter what their final diameter will be.

I don't know what you mean with "don't scale well"? FusTek parts look really good at their current and realistic sizes. If anything a 4 meter pod sounds a bit on the large side, is that something you found in a mod supported by RO?

When I tried to rescale the FusTek parts to 1.6 so that the docking ports would match those already found in RO, I ended up with lots of z-fighting and the whole thing became unstable. It's as if the parts are actually made of several models welded together and simply increasing their size resulted in some positional issues... I'm hoping you had better luck. Chaka Monkey, on the other hand, is made of several already rescaled parts, so rescaling them becomes a part by part ordeal to find the right sizes. The 4m pod is actually the stock Mk1-2 pod rescaled by stock RO. The base of the pod is 4m in diameter, which is basically the new stock size as a result.

It wouldn't be hard at all. But you would basically just end up with stock sized parts that weigh a lot more. Why not just play vanilla instead? Or maybe take a look at the 6.4 x Kerbol system, it sounds like it could be for you. WinterOwl/WhiteOwl has a nice YT series on that now, check it out.

I don't want vanilla, I want RO, but I'm just trying to get around the sizing issue as I've been talking about these past few pages.

EDIT: Before anyone jumps on me about this being a realism mod, I'm not advocating removing said realism, but allowing it to expand beyond what already exists to what might exist in the next 20-50 years or even 100 years. This game has huge potential to allow for that and I feel limiting the scope of RO to only what exists now would be cutting off much of that potential.

Edited June 8, 2014 by SpacedInvader

[ThorBeorn]

When I tried to rescale the FusTek parts to 1.6 so that the docking ports would match those already found in RO, I ended up with lots of z-fighting and the whole thing became unstable. It's as if the parts are actually made of several models welded together and simply increasing their size resulted in some positional issues... I'm hoping you had better luck. Chaka Monkey, on the other hand, is made of several already rescaled parts, so rescaling them becomes a part by part ordeal to find the right sizes. The 4m pod is actually the stock Mk1-2 pod rescaled by stock RO. The base of the pod is 4m in diameter, which is basically the new stock size as a result.

I think I even read somewhere that the FusTek docking ports only can be docked to each other no matter size of any other potential docking port, but nevermind. That won't be a problem.

The parts ARE made of several models, which I learnt from NathanKell in this thread a month ago. It can also be seen in the cfgs. This way you get more parts for less memory usage, quite smart imo.

Yes these models were not perfectly put together by the mod author in the first place. Scaling up everything makes this too obvious. Therefore I have fine tuned everything to fit perfectly which required lot's of patience and coffee.

[RedAV8R]

SpacedInvader: I'm all fair game for things to represent what the future may hold, and incorporate that into RO/RSS, HOWEVER, if parts don't fit, they don't fit, and I don't agree with changing RO, just so other mods parts do. Like ThorBeorn said, make an adapter, shoot, the PMAs on the ISS are there just as an adapter, and will soon have new adapters installed on those adapters in order to fit yet another docking port design. As for the stock Mk1-2 pod, it was ok...when there weren't about a dozen other pods out there. IMO, i'd rather have the stock KSP parts go back to their original size, so that mods which haven't been converted/resized/whatever still have something else to work with, I mean we all played with stock before RSS/RO, why can't we still play with them. Maybe we can ask NathanKell what he thinks...I mean there is a bunch of part mods out there. I'd rather see copies of stock but resized to what RO did, and leave stock alone, then mess with stock to begin with. That honestly would be the best idea I can see.

[NathanKell]

Tweaks to everything but part sizes would lead to broken spaceplanes and fiery-death reentries, since your ballistic coefficient (kg per m^2 of surface area) will be vastly different from what it should be.

IIRC the new Soviet Pack beta has a plugin from asmi that alters part CoMs on the fly.

ExsurgentEngineering.dll is required for B9, and among other things includes a gimbal that RftS Engines used to use. However, the gimbal's roll control is broken in .23.5 and so RftS Engines is switching to KM_Gimbal.

SpacedInvader: generic rescaling is absolutely not what RO is about, since RO is about as best as possible turning Squad's wacky parts into real parts. It just so happens that the Mk1-2 pod (clearly modeled on Apollo) and the Mk1 pod (clearly modeled on Mercury) are each 1/1.6 of their real equivalents in diameter. To fit their new scale, a bunch of utility parts also got that upscaling. But that says nothing about other parts (like the spaceplane parts, or engines, or whatever).

In Fustek's case, the parts they're based on are clearly the ISS modules (Karmony -> Harmony) so they should get scaled (and their mass changed, and other stats too...) to match ISS parts.

tl;dr "proper size" is "whatever the proper size of the real life equivalent is," not "1.6x old size."

Yep, RO is switching to TAC. After talking this over with RedAV8R, I have the conversion half-done, but this trip has put things on hold.

======

Regarding what I think. First of all, I'd like even people who don't have gobs of part mods to be able to play at human scale; that argues strongly in favor of resizing Squad parts for human use. (And, somewhat incidentally although nonetheless a factor personally, in RftS the British use the stock aesthetic, so I'd want stock parts rescaled so the British have their own look, to go with the FASA/NP2 Americans and AIES Germans.)

However, I *am* in favor of deprecating the parts that can easily be dealt with by TweakScale, like the girders, or the chutes (by RealChutes). The docking ports...I support RedAV8R on making only docking ports that *should* be able to dock *actually* be able to dock, although again for variety I would like to keep some stock ports around.

Finally, as I mentioned at the top of this post: Squad tends to use a semi-realistic mass for pods...but a smaller size. That messes up BC, leading to far worse reentries for the pods, for example, unless they're scaled up to reasonable diameter for their mass.

[coldblade2000]

Real Engines EngineIgnitor configs are done! It only took a few months but its done. Here's the first release: https://github.com/coldblade2000/RealEngineIgnitorConfigs/releases/tag/V1.0

Criticism and corrections are welcome. I would appreciate it if you sent me a PM since I can't be checking this thread every single day.

[TeeGee]

Real Engines EngineIgnitor configs are done! It only took a few months but its done. Here's the first release: https://github.com/coldblade2000/RealEngineIgnitorConfigs/releases/tag/V1.0

Criticism and corrections are welcome. I would appreciate it if you sent me a PM since I can't be checking this thread every single day.

How do we install this? Does it go in the gamedata folder?

[coldblade2000]

You put in in the SFJBRealEngines folder inside GameData

[sploooshman]

Just wondered if you guys had seen thsi yet http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/82118-KSP-64bits-on-Windows-%28this-time-it-s-not-a-request%29

Ive been using the modified version and can play with all my mods , on full graphics , at over 7GB , or add the activetexture management mods , on full graphics at about 4.5 GB ram , had no issue with mods yet all is like really good - heres a pic of mods and ram used with ATM

[Reign Of Magic]

Quick question.

I am having problems with the RCS systems.

I attach the RCS ports directly to the corresponding fuel tanks, fill said fuel tanks with each type of RCS propellant (just for the sake of argument that it does not work) and launch the vehicle. On the launch pad, the torque rings work just fine, but if I try to use RCS fuel levels do not go down, and no forces are applied to vessel. Am I missing something? Like a control systems part or probe part that is necessary for RCS systems to work, or did I just manage to break the corresponding mods during install.

Note: Everything but RCS works correctly, & here is my mod listL http://pastebin.com/x8SUyzNj

[TeeGee]

You put in in the SFJBRealEngines folder inside GameData

For some reason I can't throttle a majority of the liquid fuel engines. Is that intentional?

[RedAV8R]

For some reason I can't throttle a majority of the liquid fuel engines. Is that intentional?

Yes, because this is REALISM OVERHAUL and REALENGINES. IRL a large majority of rocket engines aren't throttleable, now you experience it.

[Subcidal]

The ECLSS Realfuels patch messes up realfuels, making all tanks unable to accept any type of fuel, i had it twice because i didn't realize its already in RF.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Subcidal

[TeeGee]

OK wait a minute. So you are saying that liquid fuel engines in Real LIFE can't be throttled??

Wicked! How can we tell which engines are throttle-able in KSP now?

This is literally the COOLEST thing I've learned today!

Edited June 11, 2014 by TeeGee

[coldblade2000]

Most liquid fuel engines, especially old ones. Although I only know of two that can throttle down to less than %15 (The Apollo LEM descent engine and the Merlin 1D)