[1.12] Extraplanetary Launchpads v6.99.3

[Mystique]

I'm just curious - if I feed a tugboat with asteroid in tow into recycler, will result be different from a tugboat without asteroid?)

[hab136]

Ran into a pretty interesting bug. The new ship spawns far away from the Orbital Dock and is all jumbled up:

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Other ships build fine, just not this one. I pulled off all the mod parts (Universal Storage, Surface Mounted Stock-Alike Lights for Self-Illumination, TAC Life support) and had EPL build it again, but it still built a Frankenship.

I have Karbonite plus the EPL->Regolith conversion installed, but the building station doesn't have anything other than Workshop+Orbital Dock+RocketPart containers.

Logs, persistent.sfs before and after build, .craft file, and the custom part needed to load the station (a modified version of Davon Supply Hub, also needed) are all here: https://www./folder/hucvihweq5zuc/EPL_Frankenship

This is actually the second time this happened; the first time (same ship, same station) I just called it a construction accident and stripped what I could from the ship with KAS, then sent the rest to a fiery doom.

[taniwha]

AcidEric: Origin stakes center the root, bounds stakes (pairs of +/- X and Z) center the vessel... in theory (I haven't tested /that/ yet). The difference generally won't be very noticeable for symmetrical VAB builds.

Mystique: asteroids cannot be recycled.

[AcidEric]

TY again taniwha the root of my base is in the NE corner so I should be ok Ill post a piccy when its built

[TinyPirate]

Kia ora, Taniwha! Not sure how much effort I will put into debugging this as both pads I have managed to get to the moon have eventually exploded, and they are really hard to move around! Survey stakes work great, and figure the "orbital" pad can more easily be put on a vessel for landing on the surface and work just fine too.

Edited February 9, 2015 by TinyPirate

[smjjames]

Stick some wheels onto the launchpad?

[TinyPirate]

Taniwha, what do you think of allowing probe cores (only the big and advanced ones, like the RC-L01, and maybe SpaceY's giant 3.75-m and 5-m probe cores) to contribute some productivity? Maybe not as much as a dedicated workshop crewed by trained engineers, but enough to get the job done.

I ask because my imagination has been seized by the notion of making a totally Kerbal-free space program, with self-replicating and self-repairing spacecraft, and since robots can't fix parts like engineers can, the only remaining option is to manufacture spares on-site (and have everything modular with oodles of docking ports).

You have given me a great idea for a video series!

Stick some wheels onto the launchpad?

I can really make that work with the orbital dock (especially with KAS and Robotics) but not so much with the Big Rocket Pad. It deploys from the vertical to the horizontal and at vertical it is quite unstable. I was thinking I might look at putting out a stake, deploying the pad to it, and then seeing how things go from there. I dunno. KAS is still needed anyway (to hook the pad up to resources and kerbals in workshops) so using a stake or an orbital dock deployed to a platform is probably also just as fine and far easier to manage. Hmmm. Possibly less buggy (for me) as well.

Edited February 9, 2015 by TinyPirate

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

I think the system for determining Kerbal productivity has been explained in broad terms somewhere around here (maybe in the release notes of whichever version it was that introduced it), but I was digging in the EPL code just now (thinking about robotic construction) and wanted to see their effect graphically. Here they are, by the power of MATLAB:

 

Kerbals which have low stupidity are the most productive (as expected). Courage's only effect on normal Kerbals seems to be that they get the courage to mess up. On the other hand, badass Kerbals' contributions are intensified by courage. Being a level 2+ engineer (if in career mode) or spending lots of time in a workshop (if KerbalStats is installed) will improve any Kerbal's performance, but in particular will ensure that even the stupidest and bravest of Kerbals can have positive contributions.

TinyPirate said:

You have given me a great idea for a video series!

Glad to hear it!

Edited December 5, 2015 by Kerbas_ad_astra

[smjjames]

What defines a badass kerbal though? Besides Jeb, he's always badass.

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

There's a variable called "BadS" which is defined in each Kerbal's entry in the persistent save file. Its value is True for Jeb, and for a small fraction of "rookie" astronauts (looking in my current career save, it seems I've got one besides Jeb). When it comes to building rockets in Extraplanetary Launchpads, it seems courageous and badass Kerbals are destined for greatness -- either being greatly productive or great hindrances.

[taniwha]

Kerbas_ad_astra: Wow, thanks for the graphs. While I had a pretty good idea of the shapes of the surfaces, I never knew what the contours looked like. The level-2+ curve was by careful design aiming for asymptotic to 0 in the -ve direction and y=x in the +ve direction. It wasn't until afterwards that I recognized it as the heart of the inverse hyperbolic functions (arsinh and arcosh, though in this case arsinh).

As for robotized construction: I have some ideas, but they will go into a separate mod. There are a couple of reasons for it being separate: 1) EL's main goal is to encourage manned (kerbaled:P) spaceflight. 2) The ideas I have to make robotized construction more interesting are way outside of EL's scope.

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

Kerbas_ad_astra: Wow, thanks for the graphs. While I had a pretty good idea of the shapes of the surfaces, I never knew what the contours looked like. The level-2+ curve was by careful design aiming for asymptotic to 0 in the -ve direction and y=x in the +ve direction.

Thanks! It was the BadS contribution function that got me curious, and I decided to make the rest to be fair, and then I wanted to see in particular where the zero-contour fell. I would have liked a grid to show up on the contour charts, but I think it's still straightforward enough to look up a Kerbal's contribution. I expect they will be handy when it comes time for me to select my first cadre of builders. Feel free to use or link to those charts in help pages and stuff!

It wasn't until afterwards that I recognized it as the heart of the inverse hyperbolic functions (arsinh and arcosh, though in this case arsinh).

Is that why it's called "HyperCurve"? After reading that name, I was all fired up for something awesome, but found it a big underwhelming when I plotted it.

As for robotized construction: I have some ideas, but they will go into a separate mod. There are a couple of reasons for it being separate: 1) EL's main goal is to encourage manned (kerbaled:P) spaceflight. 2) The ideas I have to make robotized construction more interesting are way outside of EL's scope.

I'm very glad to hear that robotic construction is in the planning -- it's certainly less work for me than making an "Unkerbed Off-world Construction" fork. I've just started working on a tech-tree tweak to enforce Kerbal-free gameplay (and move a couple of probe cores a little earlier), and in-situ production is the big gap. Looking forward to the new addon when it arrives "Soon^TM".

[taniwha]

Is that why it's called "HyperCurve"? After reading that name, I was all fired up for something awesome, but found it a big underwhelming when I plotted it.

Hehe, yeah. It is a hyperbola rotated 90 degrees (or really, mirrored on the y=x axis). It is the inverse of y=x+1/x with some scaling to get the 0 mapping where i wanted it.

[TinyPirate]

Hey! I featured EL in my 2 Minute Mods series. It's hard to do justice to the mod in 2 Minutes, but I hope I did an ok job. Feel free to share around as you wish.

[AcidEric]

ok think I'm still doing something wrong

finalising my build the craft is being built but is appearing on the honey badger (build craft) not the survey stake (origin) its also appearing at 90 degrees off the vertical (bottom of vessel pointing south, top north, south Up, north down,east -east, west -west).

I've tried adding a x+ stake to define East my origin stake is 99m away from the build vessel (the limit is 100m right?)

[Jarin]

AcidEric: Origin stakes center the root, bounds stakes (pairs of +/- X and Z) center the vessel... in theory (I haven't tested /that/ yet). The difference generally won't be very noticeable for symmetrical VAB builds.

Very important distinction for large horizontal-built ground constructions, though. The root could be waaaay off to one side if you built out in one direction. Makes facing rather important.

[AcidEric]

Very important distinction for large horizontal-built ground constructions, though. The root could be waaaay off to one side if you built out in one direction. Makes facing rather important.

It's not centering on the stake at all its centering on the pad

I'm selecting the correct stake, EL ui is highlighting it, Its in the dropdown list it's just not finalising on it.

The problem is orientation not facing see below

I'll try again with origin, +X & +Z stakes see if that makes any difference

Edit** origin, +X & +Z stakes didn't make any difference still centered on the pad not the stake's

Edit 2** tried again with another vessel, built fine and centered on the stake not the pad and oriented the correct way. think it must be the base is wrong somehow will play with it and come back.

Edited February 10, 2015 by AcidEric

[Jarin]

Oh holy hell o.o

"JEB! How the hell did you manage to crash an entire OUTPOST?!"

[AcidEric]

LOL

"Bill, I just followed Your drawings!!"

[taniwha]

AcidEric: Hmm, do you have an origin stake? Do all your stakes have the same name? Easiest thing for that is to always place all stakes for a build using the same kerbal (stakes automatically become "[kerbal name] Base"), but an EVAed kerbal can rename stakes.

I ask about the origin stake because I have not done any testing without one. All my testing using an origin stake and combinations of X and Z direction stakes and XYZ bounds stakes have, so far, gone well... on a 20+ degree slope:

[click for a larger image]

This is just after placing my first tower crane (the first time... I was placing the second crane, KSP physics wigged out (I pushed them too far, I guess), loaded from quicksave to just before placing the first crane. second time went well). That is an Origin stake visible directly below the docking port. There is a -Y bounds stake to the left and up the hill: the crane spawned about 1m above the docking port .

The base itself was spawned using an Origin stake, a -Y bounds stake, and a +X bounds stake. In retrospect, I should have used a +Z stake too because the NE corner of the base was a little too low to the ground for the minimum height of the launch clamps. Things seems to have stabilized, though, so if the kraken attacks, I'll just accept it as poor surveying . Even though I wrote the code, I too am learning how to actually use it.

Ok, back to your problem... if my guess is correct and you have only +X and +Z Direction stakes, then EL will get terribly confused: you have three points (one implicit: the average location of the two stakes) and they will be exactly co-linear (within the limits of double precision). This will cause grief with cross products (cross(+X-O, +Z-O)) and the resulting 0 vector will propagate and may even cause INF and NAN to appear. Having only +X and +Z Bounds stakes might work, depending on relative locations with respect to the compass points.

Also... I have fixed several bugs since 5.0.2 was released.

* 3ce1b89 - (HEAD, origin/master, origin/HEAD, master) Trigger B9 Wings and FAR setup. (3 days ago)<Bill Currie>
* 26f199e - Remove the last vestige of build window input locks. (5 days ago)<Bill Currie>
* 2bae7e1 - Ensure "control" is null if active vessel has no pads. (5 days ago)<Bill Currie>
* 28f39e5 - Make Origin Bounds stakes useful. (7 days ago)<Bill Currie>
* 7961021 - Rescan for sites when a site is deleted. (7 days ago)<Bill Currie>
* 94793c4 - Scan for sites when a site is updated. (7 days ago)<Bill Currie>
* 8e299bf - Implement "bounds" stakes. (7 days ago)<Bill Currie>

Oh, dear.... AcidEric: I see your problem (just noticed now looking over that log). I have not released the bounds stake implementation. You have been operating on false information. I am very sorry.

BTW, in case anybody is wondering: public holiday here in Japan

- - - Updated - - -

Hey! I featured EL in my 2 Minute Mods series. It's hard to do justice to the mod in 2 Minutes, but I hope I did an ok job. Feel free to share around as you wish.

HAHA, nice. Very entertaining. One of the motivations for survey stakes was to be able to deprecate that accursed launchpad2. Also, that's the first time I've actually seen the runway. It looks to be good for nothing much more than a fashion show Hmm, though I suppose it might work well as a general platform on a raised base.

[taniwha]

I have released version 5.1.0 of EL. Links in the first post.

64-bit Windows is NOT supported due to it being an unstable mess.

Nobody will stop you from modifying it to work, but you will get NO support. Anybody distributing a modified version of Extraplanetary Launchpads (for any reason, actually) must make it prominently clear that it is not Extraplanetary Launchpads as released by me. This is actually one of the requirements in the GPL.

Also, by releasing a modified version, you agree to accept all responsibility. This is the reason for the attribution rule in the GPL: so your victims come crying to you rather than to me.

Changes from 5.0.2:

• Bounds stakes have been implemented (many apologies for stating they already had been).
  
• Rescan for sites any time a site is modified (by adding or removing stakes).
  
• Handle actual site removal. This is actually separate to modification.
  
• Fix a source of exceptions when switching from a vessel with "pads" to one without.
  
• Calculate the correct mass (and thus resource requirements) for B9 wings and KAS containers.
  
• Delay the start of workshop activity by one frame. This fixes an NRE when a construction vessel that is currently building is loaded. This may fix the problem some people have had with background builds not working.
  

Some points about Bounds stakes:

• Bounds stakes use the same highlight colors as Direction stakes, but flash.
  
• Single (for a specific axis) Bounds stakes will lock the relevant side of the vessel's bounding box to that stake (ie, the box face and the stake will be coplanar).
  
• Two Bounds stakes (eg, -X and +X) will cause the box to be centered between the stakes.
  
• No Bounds stakes on an axis will center the vessel's root part on the Origin stake (or the average of all stakes if there is no Origin stake).
  
• As per Origin and Direction stakes, multiple Bounds stakes of the same axis (eg, -Z) will be averaged together.
  
• There is no difference between a Bounds Origin stake and a Direction Origin Stake.
  

Again, I apologize for suggesting the use of bounds stakes when I had not yet released them. I had begun working on them right after releasing 5.0.2, so I had forgotten they were new.

There are some minor issue with stake highlights remaining when switching vessels in the vicinity. This will get fixed (and certain engineer kerbals will be able to "see" them anyway) at some stage.

TinyPirate: I've linked your review. Thank you.

Edited February 11, 2015 by taniwha

[Superfluous J]

I am SO glad I read about stakes before setting up my first ELP base since spring of last year. I'm totes going to redesign my starter base to not be so clunky

[Superfluous J]

Okay I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong, hopefully it's something simple I forgot or don't know (it usually is). I've literally not built anything with ELP since May of last year so I'm a bit rusty and there's a lot new.

I have a base. it's simple but I think it has everything. In particular it's got a workshop with 2 engineers in it, and productivity is 6.7 according to right click. I have a survey stake in the ground 40 meters away and it's an Origin stake.

...and I have no idea how to build something there. Right clicking the stake while it's the active vessel does nothing. Right clicking the base brings up a big menu but "build" is not an option. Clicking the ELP button in the taskbar does not bring up a build menu (though the tooltip implies it will).

What am I doing wrong?

EDIT NOTE: I'm using the previous build because I've got bad internet right now and can't download it. I'll be doing that later today.

Edited February 11, 2015 by 5thHorseman

[taniwha]

5thHorseman: I'm sorry, but I don't use MKS so I don't know much about it, but it looks like the MKS ColonyHub has the ExSurveyStation module (according to Einarr on IRC (he poked around the configs)). Also, Einarr, said most MKS parts are EL Workshops, so that won't give you trouble. Everything else looks to be good to go.

[Superfluous J]

5thHorseman: I'm sorry, but I don't use MKS so I don't know much about it, but it looks like the MKS ColonyHub has the ExSurveyStation module (according to Einarr on IRC (he poked around the configs)). Also, Einarr, said most MKS parts are EL Workshops, so that won't give you trouble. Everything else looks to be good to go.

Haha I'm so new at this I didn't even know that wasn't a stock ELP part.

Question: Assuming it works, how do I open the window? Should it be a right-click menu option on the workstation or should that button on thetaskbar work, or something else?