[1.12] Extraplanetary Launchpads v6.99.3

[Jivaii]

Cheers. Is there any way to increase the detection area too? Given the size of the OMD, it would be interesting to scan 2 units at a time

That's a limit within Kethane DLL. I wish we could orbit higher and get a wider scan range but...one hex at a time =/

[Vladthemad]

Cheers. Is there any way to increase the detection area too? Given the size of the OMD, it would be interesting to scan 2 units at a time

Don't the Kethane detectors scan for ore already? Unless something changed in the latest update, that's what I was always using.

[Jivaii]

Don't the Kethane detectors scan for ore already? Unless something changed in the latest update, that's what I was always using.

That was removed a while ago. You can add it into the CFG for the kethane detectors though.

[Deredere]

So... for those that don't like EL's parts, I have this to say. I recommend that you do not use kethane's parts (they're for kethane!), but rather, make your own. If you don't know how, then learn. Or just be patient. However, replacement models are rather low on my list of priorities, thus the suggestion to make your own.

I have to say you have some nerve saying this while using HOME's hab modules to replace parts in your own build

With respect, a mod should not require other mods to function. Using Kethane's code is one thing, but making base building impossible without KAS and contemplating making powering it impossible without KSPI is quite another. Kethane doesn't require anything to work, which is why it's so popular.

[Vladthemad]

That was removed a while ago. You can add it into the CFG for the kethane detectors though.

Interesting, it couldn't have been too long ago because I was using it in the last update...or something screwy was going on But I had quit using EL pretty quick because of the eessplosun on the pad bug.

[Vladthemad]

That was removed a while ago. You can add it into the CFG for the kethane detectors though.

Interesting, it couldn't have been too long ago because I was using it in the last update...or something screwy was going on But I had quit using EL pretty quick because of the eessplosun on the pad bug.

Also, I've seen that launchpad 2 has internals, and actually has a pilot inside, but it doesn't show up in the bottom of the screen while flying so I can't iva/eva. Is this a bug, unfinished work, or something missing in the configs?

[Jivaii]

I have to say you have some nerve saying this while using HOME's hab modules to replace parts in your own build

With respect, a mod should not require other mods to function. Using Kethane's code is one thing, but making base building impossible without KAS and contemplating making powering it impossible without KSPI is quite another. Kethane doesn't require anything to work, which is why it's so popular.

The thing is, you can use it without those mods. It's just insanely difficult.

[boberts314]

With respect, a mod should not require other mods to function. Using Kethane's code is one thing, but making base building impossible without KAS and contemplating making powering it impossible without KSPI is quite another.

If you don't think he's doing it right, perhaps you should create a superior product?

[skykooler]

OK, this isn't related (directly) to the current talk on models, instead about a different style of construction equipment for ELP. In the past a few people have, on occasion, commented on the fact that it's (comparitively) easy to launch the pad itself and get things running. Yes, getting things self sufficient is hard, shipping up the smelter, parts factory etc, but the pad itself is fairly light weight, and the new one is even fairly small packed. Is it realistic for a small ship to send a construction facility that can build ANYTHING in KSP?

Well, leaving aside how to limit such small, portable construction facilities, I think a larger, base-like system could be the way to go. However, how to ship something up to another planet when you're trying to make it seem like a base rather than a ship component. Making it too heavy to mount on a ship stops it from being used... mostly. There'll always be people who can strap enough boosters on to make ANYTHING fly, but you know what I mean. This of course means you can't lift the base. So, the old tactic of taking a base and splitting it into dockable sections. Send them up separately and dock them after landing on a planet.

OK, docking on planetary surface. I tried doing this a very long time ago, using sideways docking ports and either landing legs or undercarraige to lift a rover up so the ports would mate. I gave up on this approach, instead trying Damned robotics (this was before Infernal robotics came out)... anyway, more recently I saw that Brotoro had done something similar to my old method, but he'd got it to work by having vertical docking ports instead of horizontal ones. Thus since then I've been redoing my old method with upgrades and had quite a bit of success. No KAS required.

So, plan is a central base 'hub' with extendable support legs to stop it tipping sideways (see why in a moment). This hub has four arms spread out between the legs, and on the end of each arm is the equivalent of a senior docking port facing down. This hub (and all the parts docking to it) should be heavy, probably larger than an orange fuel tank. This makes it quite a challenge to design a rocket to take it off planet, but not insurmountable. The hub has docking ports and the launch pad itself, but none of the support gear. Docking to this are four modules. Two of these are just storage containers (one for liquids, one for solids), and the other two are processing centers (again, one for liquids and one for solids). Since even the modules will be heavy (perhaps not so heavy for the two storage units when they are empty of materials) even they will need quite a bit to haul it up into space.

The modules have standard wheels but I think they'd have to be welded on to the model to make sure the height is right. Similarly they also have undercarraige wheels welded on. These lift the module up when it's in position to dock. A bumper in the hub stops the module when it's at the right distance in so as long as the drive in is lined up right it should dock fine. The port should be sturdy enough to hold the module completely so it can retract it's undercarraige after docking. On my ships using the vertical dock technique I've noticed that when the ship loads physics if there is any difference between the ground heights between different parts that are docked together, the wheels bounce them. Most of the time this isn't an issue, but if the modules hang from the central hub it won't be an issue at all. This is why it needs the long support legs. If you dock one module on one side it would throw the center of mass off and tip it over. With the legs this long the center of mass would still be inside the stability square of the legs.

OK, now I've bored you with tons of words, try pictures! OK, it's just a rough scribble and I know the different types of module will look different in the end, but it gives you an idea of what I'm thinking of:

http://www.clayspaces.com/videogames/Construction Hub.jpg

Anyone think this is a viable possibility for ELP? If so the current models (or replacements) would be slow, underpowered parts for mobile factories/processors. The heavy stuff would do things better for a central hub/base. I'm not sure how you could restrict such mobile devices to make a significant difference between the two types of construction equipment without making it really annoying to use the mobile stuff. Maybe limit them to certain Techlevels? Maybe only nodes two or three below what you've currently researched? Not sure.

Anyway, thoughts anyone?

That looks great! It's pretty much what my original idea for EPL was, actually.

I think the launch pads are actually decent enough as is. I'm not exactly sure WHY they have attachment points well off from them, but apart from that they look about like what I'd expect.

Those shouldn't still be there; they are remnants from my attempts to animate the position of docking ports. Launchpad2 was planned to have a docking port on the back of the cockpit, but I couldn't make it move, so I just moved it out of the way. And the original launchpad was supposed to have all four arms fold up, but that didn't work because I needed some sort of fixed point to attach things because I don't use KAS.

[Rotary]

Don't know anything about that, but haven't gone through every page here either Do you know what page they are on? I was only giving a quick and easy solution to the frequent complaints. If you're already using Kethane parts, which most people are otherwise you can't dig for materials, adding EL material extraction and conversion to the kethane parts seemed to be a no brainer. At first I was actually going to copy all the kethane items, so one drill would drill for ore, and the other for kethane, a different converter for each, etc., but it cluttered up the vab menus with items that looked exactly the same. Dawned on me why bother, just squeeze it all into one item.

As I said, it's not huge like the smelter, so it may be a bit gamey. There's no storage of parts on those items though, so you'd still need to send up the containers. Also if you wanted to, you could increase the weight.

Realistically you could use any model you find for other parts, you just need to get the model and copy the stuff out of the config for the nodes, but I didn't want to make a huge complicated write up for doing that

I was talking about Aeon-Phoenix's model for the smelter

Okay and more stuff.

After thinking about the furnace (not smelter - wrong technical term) i came to the conclusion that simple yet different comes around best. Now some people would think: wouldn't they cover it with sheet metal? And i thought by myself: not in operation as it generates too much heat. Hence the warning plaques i put on it. I also thought some old school gauges look just kerbalish enough.

And you might notice that i use the same shell as with the cans. This is of course to cut it shorter for me and to keep a design going that should stretch throughout the new series of parts.

I've send the part to T. It is in his hands now.

http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx254/Aeon_Voom/2013-12-29_00001.jpg

Btw, I'm getting tons of Null-Reference errors in the build-screen, and the 'Build Resources' panel cannot be moved nor does it show any info, when building or not. Any idea if that is normal?

[Deredere]

If you don't think he's doing it right, perhaps you should create a superior product?

Just constructive criticism, bro. We all have our roles to play. You can question a professional without becoming one. If that wasn't true, presidential elections would be crowded affairs indeed.

I'm not so presumptuous to demand that my opinions be heeded, but I'm not the only one here with them.

[Patupi]

That looks great! It's pretty much what my original idea for EPL was, actually.

Well, I'll see if I can have a go at modelling it, but bear in mind I haven't done any serious modelling in nearly ten years! Even then I was never too good at texturing. If I do get something going would an OBJ file be good enough? I've never imported anything into Unity/KSP and don't know the inner workings.

(EDIT: Oh, and what kind of poly count is usual for KSP?)

[boberts314]

I'm not so presumptuous to demand that my opinions be heeded, but I'm not the only one here with them.

And yet still presumptuous enough to state them as fact. Constructive criticism would offer viable solutions after deconstructing the problem. So unless you're currently working on a flowchart to explain the myriad paths by which taniwha can better use his operating resources of a $0.00 budget and far too little free time then the role you've chosen to play is "another person complaining about a problem that has already been brought up, acknowledged, and discussed to exhaustion".

I'd like for you to play that role more quietly, please. We already have plenty of them and the noise is becoming bothersome. It would be a shame if the project were abandoned because nobody wanted to put up with the armchair critics.

[Patupi]

OK, I did up a model of the Construction hub I was talking about:

It's 3084 triangles and I tried to keep the different groups meaningful (but no skeleton/hinges set up) and I hope they transferred to the OBJ file.

Just incase, here is the Milkshape 3D file too.

[impwarhamer]

hey Taniwha, i found this on the forums: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/62131-How-do-we-make-resources-work?p=891456#post891456

It was a thread discussing ways squad could implement resource mining with out making it to complicated.

Thought it was worth a look

[Patupi]

That idea (not mine originally, I just fleshed it out a bit) of constructing things via automated Kerbals and individual components is good, but I'm not sure if it's possible to do it yet in KSP. Can you automate a Kerbal like that? Make him weld parts together? Can you even simulate the VAB controls in the 'real world' outside the VAB itself? I know KAS has allowed placement of objects one on another outside the VAB, but you can't restrict things (ie, radial symmetry) with that and it's tricky to make things level.

[Vladthemad]

I have to say you have some nerve saying this while using HOME's hab modules to replace parts in your own build

With respect, a mod should not require other mods to function. Using Kethane's code is one thing, but making base building impossible without KAS and contemplating making powering it impossible without KSPI is quite another. Kethane doesn't require anything to work, which is why it's so popular.

There are HOME parts in EL? Aside from that, there's nothing that prevents you from using EL with plain stock KSP or with the addition of Kethane. I wouldn't even go so far as to say it's even very difficult. Docking ports would be the stock version of KAS. Have a look at this setup which wouldn't be overly difficult to do with say just stock ksp and EL...and maybe kethane if you wanted to use the resource gathering aspect of it. Who uses EL without kethane anyway? Might as well get hyperedit and just move your ship where you want it. Same effect

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/48876

That's definitively an advantage. OMD it is!

Edit: LIES!

Ha! That made me laugh quietly to myself...I have a friend who shouts LIES!!!!! all the time when someone is wrong

Those shouldn't still be there; they are remnants from my attempts to animate the position of docking ports. Launchpad2 was planned to have a docking port on the back of the cockpit, but I couldn't make it move, so I just moved it out of the way. And the original launchpad was supposed to have all four arms fold up, but that didn't work because I needed some sort of fixed point to attach things because I don't use KAS.

I was using them to attach fuel tanks off to the side without any visual connection to the pads. I'm having a look again, as I was talking about the previous version.

Yep still there in the latest I downloaded two days ago. I'm seeing on the original Launch Pad one right at the top of the two folded up legs pairs, and one to the right by the leg pair that is capped off and the end.

The same holds true for Launch Pad 2. The attachment points are in the same place, but just floating in space.

I was talking about Aeon-Phoenix's model for the smelter

Yeah after I posted that I dug through the forum for a bit and found it. I think it looks pretty badass too. And best of all it's a standard size!

That idea (not mine originally, I just fleshed it out a bit) of constructing things via automated Kerbals and individual components is good, but I'm not sure if it's possible to do it yet in KSP. Can you automate a Kerbal like that? Make him weld parts together? Can you even simulate the VAB controls in the 'real world' outside the VAB itself? I know KAS has allowed placement of objects one on another outside the VAB, but you can't restrict things (ie, radial symmetry) with that and it's tricky to make things level.

I would think a lot of that could be stolen from the animated/automated Kerbals in the VAB/SPH. Just have them roam around the launchpad while something is being built...unless you want to get REALLY fancy, no need to have them actually building/welding things. As far as having things build over time? I would think part by part from the craft file over time would be easiest. A minute passes and the engine pops up, another minute, fuel tank, etc. Maybe have the speed of build depend on how many kerbals are inside the launchpad?

Honestly I'm ok with the current insta-build, and I'd be just as fine with something that added a simple delay to build based on mass. Would we really need animated kerbals building everything? Squad doesn't even do that! Sure, it'd be cool the first time or two, but how often do you watch those lil buggers in the VAB after the first time you've seen them walking around or waving their batons? Maybe if they'd crash their trucks into my rocket as I'm building it on occasion I'd pay more attention to them!

Edited January 23, 2014 by Vladthemad

[taniwha]

I have to say you have some nerve saying this while using HOME's hab modules to replace parts in your own build

Hehehe. A few things:

• consider whence such advice might come
  
• Majiir does not permit reconfigured (or otherwise, really) kethane parts to be distributed
  
• it was not my mod at the time
  

With respect, a mod should not require other mods to function. Using Kethane's code is one thing, but making base building impossible without KAS and contemplating making powering it impossible without KSPI is quite another. Kethane doesn't require anything to work, which is why it's so popular.

Actually, Kethane is popular because of what it does, not because it is independent of other mods (though that might help a little).

However, I see what your problem is: unrealistic expectations. EL is not about base building, but rather building anything away from KSC. EL (and Kethane) give purpose to building bases and space stations, not make it possible: that is what the docking port does. KAS is a better docking port (high praise to KAS). Kethane provides means to fuel the base. EL provides a means to build the components of the base. Both without flying said products from KSC to, say, Moho (I've yet to get a Moho capture).

OK, I did up a model of the Construction hub I was talking about:

Looks good, though I'd have problems with it as I build a lot of wheeled cranes and getting one down from there would be... interesting

hey Taniwha, i found this on the forums: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/62131-How-do-we-make-resources-work?p=891456#post891456

It was a thread discussing ways squad could implement resource mining with out making it to complicated.

Thought it was worth a look

I had a quick look and it seems interesting. I'll give it more time later.

[Patupi]

Looks good, though I'd have problems with it as I build a lot of wheeled cranes and getting one down from there would be... interesting

Yes, I was considering a special module connecting to one of the hanging ports that has a slope leading to the pad (unfoldable I guess) but I think that would probably end up with way too steep a slope? Probably.

I would think a lot of that could be stolen from the animated/automated Kerbals in the VAB/SPH. Just have them roam around the launchpad while something is being built...unless you want to get REALLY fancy, no need to have them actually building/welding things. As far as having things build over time? I would think part by part from the craft file over time would be easiest. A minute passes and the engine pops up, another minute, fuel tank, etc. Maybe have the speed of build depend on how many kerbals are inside the launchpad?

Honestly I'm ok with the current insta-build, and I'd be just as fine with something that added a simple delay to build based on mass. Would we really need animated kerbals building everything? Squad doesn't even do that! Sure, it'd be cool the first time or two, but how often do you watch those lil buggers in the VAB after the first time you've seen them walking around or waving their batons? Maybe if they'd crash their trucks into my rocket as I'm building it on occasion I'd pay more attention to them!

What I was considering was a graphic way that Kerbals could aid in construction. IE, it would take longer to build if you had fewer Kerbals in the ship/base doing the constructing. Where I first posted that suggestion was Orbital Manufacturing (if I remember right) and they were supposed to be jetting about on RCS packs doing the welding. True, managing the positions of them so they were actually working on the right part as it was being built would be tricky, just flying (or walking on a ground based pad) around while it was going on would work. Plus I'd say put some temp block, or even temporary graphics of scaffolding, to replace a part as it's being build, replaced with the finished component when it's done.

[Vladthemad]

Yes, I was considering a special module connecting to one of the hanging ports that has a slope leading to the pad (unfoldable I guess) but I think that would probably end up with way too steep a slope? Probably.

What I was considering was a graphic way that Kerbals could aid in construction. IE, it would take longer to build if you had fewer Kerbals in the ship/base doing the constructing. Where I first posted that suggestion was Orbital Manufacturing (if I remember right) and they were supposed to be jetting about on RCS packs doing the welding. True, managing the positions of them so they were actually working on the right part as it was being built would be tricky, just flying (or walking on a ground based pad) around while it was going on would work. Plus I'd say put some temp block, or even temporary graphics of scaffolding, to replace a part as it's being build, replaced with the finished component when it's done.

Don't get me wrong, that'd be awesome...but far and above what I'd expect from a mod. I'm all for fluff once the filler is complete

Have any of you looked at the spherical launch pads? Your talk about getting wheeled vehicles down from your pad reminded me of it:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/37188

Some of the Hooligan Labs pads are just big slabs, which made them easy to retexture, but in the end their still just a big flat square. Serviceable but nothing fancy. The expanding ones aren't bad tho. A little on the light side if you ask me. Their runways on the other hand are just plain plain plain silly! Anyway you might take a look at their expanding pads as you could probably build something like those drawings with one of them and stock parts...if you wanted.

[Patupi]

Well, the point of the Hub idea I was doing wasn't an expandable thing really. It was a way to have a segmented base you assemble later, but keep it simple. The total base would have five parts, plus extras like solar panels or kethane mining rigs. But each part would be large and heavy, the whole base being too much to lift in one go. Thus, as a base, you could have things more efficient or other advantages. I just like the idea of a facility being better than a mobile launchpad. It just seemed silly to be to have a (relatively) small part on a ship that can build anything.

If we can do a different mechanism, say invert the docking arms so they are down low with ports pointing up for rovers to drive over then dock, you could have a flat central pad that was low to the ground with some hefty equipment alongside it maybe. What would be tricky would be leaving both access ways on and off for rovers to drive away, but at the same time leaving ports on the side where the rest of the base attaches to. I've tried to do something similar with the existing launchpad2, putting a base underneath it (and unfortunately making it's inbuilt engines useless as they are thrusting against the base) then extending superstructure sideways from that base, through the two holes in the unfolded base, and putting the docking connectors on those. It still left no real room to drive rovers off, even with a tiny amount of ground clearance between the bottom of the launchpad2 and the ground.

(EDIT: Here's a sketch of what I mean, the ramps able to fold for transit for the central Hub-

There's one problem with this design. You can't use undercarraige to lift the modules to dock, they'd need to be lowered to dock. That would mean whatever is holding up high enough to not dock to the pad as it's coming in must also be the drive wheels. Probably would need specialised wheels that are powered as well as retractable, or at least with alterable suspension to lift and lower it)

Edited January 24, 2014 by Patupi

[Kaa253]

@The Space Man: What is that launchpad?

It's very nice once you have it on the ground. But as a FAR player with RSS that launchpad gives me nightmares just looking at it.

Yes. I am just about at the point where I am ready to play FAR. I am going to give it a serious go as soon as I finish my current career. When I look at EL (and KSPI) I have to wonder if a FAR based career can make use of them at all. I guess I will soon enough discover exactly how much deviation from sensible aerodynamic shape is acceptable to launch with FAR. I presume that if I can get an orbital construction pad into orbit then I can build everything else "LEM" shaped in vacuum.

[Rotary]

Well, the point of the Hub idea I was doing wasn't an expandable thing really. It was a way to have a segmented base you assemble later, but keep it simple. The total base would have five parts, plus extras like solar panels or kethane mining rigs. But each part would be large and heavy, the whole base being too much to lift in one go. Thus, as a base, you could have things more efficient or other advantages. I just like the idea of a facility being better than a mobile launchpad. It just seemed silly to be to have a (relatively) small part on a ship that can build anything.

If we can do a different mechanism, say invert the docking arms so they are down low with ports pointing up for rovers to drive over then dock, you could have a flat central pad that was low to the ground with some hefty equipment alongside it maybe. What would be tricky would be leaving both access ways on and off for rovers to drive away, but at the same time leaving ports on the side where the rest of the base attaches to. I've tried to do something similar with the existing launchpad2, putting a base underneath it (and unfortunately making it's inbuilt engines useless as they are thrusting against the base) then extending superstructure sideways from that base, through the two holes in the unfolded base, and putting the docking connectors on those. It still left no real room to drive rovers off, even with a tiny amount of ground clearance between the bottom of the launchpad2 and the ground.

(EDIT: Here's a sketch of what I mean, the ramps able to fold for transit for the central Hub-

http://www.clayspaces.com/videogames/Constructor/Flat hub.jpg

There's one problem with this design. You can't use undercarraige to lift the modules to dock, they'd need to be lowered to dock. That would mean whatever is holding up high enough to not dock to the pad as it's coming in must also be the drive wheels. Probably would need specialised wheels that are powered as well as retractable, or at least with alterable suspension to lift and lower it)

An 'R' for Rocketry or an 'S' for Spaceship would be more appropriate instead if an 'H'

Actually you could use the mod that brings hinges and stuff.. I thought it was Automated Robotics or so. It has these hinges and an extendable arm. Only it is focused on the mechanical side, I would like it more if there was some kind of harmonica part that would make it look believable (and could transfer crew). Demands, demands... I should pick up Blender again one of these days

[Ralathon]

Can you even simulate the VAB controls in the 'real world' outside the VAB itself? I know KAS has allowed placement of objects one on another outside the VAB, but you can't restrict things (ie, radial symmetry) with that and it's tricky to make things level.

Why would you need to bring it outside the VAB window anyway?

Admittedly, I know next to nothing about building plugins in KSP. But I do know that RSS allows you to adjust the size of the VAB, so I assume you have some kind of access to the VAB scenery. That means you could make a snapshot of the current area (the launch base, surrounding terrain etc) and use that as VAB instead. Pressing build on the launchpad would bring you to the VAB with altered scenery allowing you to build and position to your hearts content. Upon pressing launch you reset the VAB scenery to the default and spawn the craft on the EPL pad.

Admittedly, this is probably a LOT of work. So I don't see it happening anytime soon. Especially the "Catch a snapshot" part seems hard. Probably easier to just refine the current method and add fluff like this later on.

[landeTLS]

OK, I did up a model of the Construction hub I was talking about:

http://www.clayspaces.com/videogames/Constructor/Construction Hub model.jpg

It's 3084 triangles and I tried to keep the different groups meaningful (but no skeleton/hinges set up) and I hope they transferred to the OBJ file.

Just incase, here is the Milkshape 3D file too.

Thats a really nice model you made there. This is often a very good way to help out plugin developers to contribute work as they are often busy with their actual work and are doing this for free after all. Im a novice in unity and blender/modelling but i found out i am able to transfer some skills from my graphic design background to creating texture maps for ksp. Ill try to get this into unity tho im afraid i may screw it up tho. Does it already have a basic diffuse map? On my phone now so i havent had a chance to take a look at it. If it has i could get right into making a texture map for iit. Also did you add a normalmap, ksps current handling of normalmaps are a bit basic atm but it does add a lot of details without huge tris count?

Edit:

In regards to animated rocket workshop this was looking really promising tho the project appears to be dead. Even the more advanced animation project that the developer moved on to appears to be dead. But cool nonetheless

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/50916-WIP-Animated-Workshop

Edited January 24, 2014 by landeTLS