Considering making a airship mod - now with rough render

[whistlehead]

I've been making virtual models for railway simulator Trainz for a while now (though I'll be the first to admit that I'm not exactly an exceptional talent) - and I'd like to have a shot at doing the same for KSP.

The first thing that springs to mind is an airship pack of more traditional design than the Hooligan labs components - big cigars, built in sections.

This is just a vague idea at the moment, but if anyone could give me some pointers as to how exactly to create a part which works with Hooligan labs I'd much appreciate it. Alternatively, could I simply set the mass to be so low that it floats naturally? Does KSP's physics allow for that?

EDIT: As clarification, I'm thinking simple parts that are always inflated - not deflatable parts like some of the Hooligan components

Regards,

Chris

Edited December 10, 2013 by whistlehead

[Deathsoul097]

Talk to JewelShizen, the maintainer of HL. He can help you.

[whistlehead]

Talk to JewelShizen, the maintainer of HL. He can help you.

Thanks - if I go ahead I will do, though I do have an alternative idea which I explain below.

As my idea progesses, I have a few more queries.

Most important:

- It is possible to make trust-reversing engines, or would it be better to use IR rotatrons to turn the engine over?

- If I used small propellers as a replacement RCS system, could I animate the props? Alternatively, could I make the model swap out with one with a 'rotating disk' (just a transparent circle which looks like a moving propellor)? Along the same lines, could I configure the props to run off the main fuel supply?

- Possibly most importantly - How should I deal with the issue of creating lift?

- Idea 1: Could I make the envelope of the airship use a combination of two resources (Helium/Hydrogen [maybe just call it Lifting Gas?] and Compressed Air [ballast?]) for lift? The idea that I have is that compressed air could fill and empty in flight, acting as ballast to move the airship up and down - i.e. it would add mass to the envelope. Meanwhile, Lifting Gas would have a negative mass. This would be an expendable resource which once drained is gone forever - or until refilled, either through docking or KAS. The user would have the option to drain Lifting Gas to drop quickly, with the obvious disadvantage of not being able to get back into the air again. To add difficulty, Lifting Gas would drain very slowly over time, as Hydrogen and Helium do in reality, meaning you can't fly forever.

- Idea 2: Alternatively (and perhaps more simply) could I just give the envelope a negative mass and use a ballast resource? A possible extension of this is to use a convertor to convert IntakeAir to ballast.

- Idea 3: Should I just use Hooligan?

For ideas 1 and 2 I'm thinking that I could possibly get action groups to alter the resources quantities.

Not so important

Those are my main queries. I have a few others, but they aren't so important:

- Regarding transportable lifting gas tanks to build stations to refill your airships (for idea 1) - obviously the lifting gas would need to be compressed in these tanks so they could store an appropriate quantity and not float away. Could I use another resource (compressed lifting gas) in these tanks and have a Kethane-style convertor part to attach to a fuelling rig? Or could I make a convertor which converts a generic game resource to lifting gas?

- I quite like the idea of having to fit exhausts to remove exhaust gases, similar to WasteHeat in Interstellar. Would the simple solution be to essentially copy this across but with a different resource?

I realise this is rather a large set of questions (and that I might be getting too ambitious), especially as I still may not actually create the item in question, but I am very interested to know if it's possible. I might create a roadmap for myself to see if I could fit in creating this around the other things I have to do - but I need to set the fundamentals first.

I have got a touch of experience in writing configs for game parts, but not in KSP and never anything especially complex.

Regards,

Chris

Edited December 10, 2013 by whistlehead

[kiwiak]

Could I make the envelope of the airship use a combination of two resources (Helium/Hydrogen [maybe just call it Lifting Gas?] and Compressed Air [ballast?]) for lift? The idea that I have is that compressed air could fill and empty in flight, acting as ballast to move the airship up and down - i.e. it would add mass to the envelope. Meanwhile, Lifting Gas would have a negative mass. This would be an expendable resource which once drained is gone forever - or until refilled, either through docking or KAS. The user would have the option to drain Lifting Gas to drop quickly, with the obvious disadvantage of not being able to get back into the air again. To add difficulty, Lifting Gas would drain very slowly over time, as Hydrogen and Helium do in reality, meaning you can't fly forever.

I really, really like this. Hooligan baloons are way too much overpovered, we need some realistic approach.

And of course filling ballast shoudl drain batteries. That woudl limmit time of using airship too.

[whistlehead]

I really, really like this. Hooligan baloons are way too much overpovered, we need some realistic approach.

And of course filling ballast shoudl drain batteries. That woudl limmit time of using airship too.

I like the battery drain idea - I hadn't come up with that. I guess it wouldn't be too hard to create a part which turns IntakeAir to ComoressedAir at the cost of electricity, though as I say I've never scripted a KSP part before.

And thanks! This is my preferred idea, but I don't know if it's workable or not.

Regards,

Chris

[pizzaoverhead]

You're making a rigid airship in sections? Cool! Give them a damaged state like the solar panels and wheels have, then you could replicate something similar to Crimson Skies' zeppelins:

I'd recommend starting with some modelling before worrying about all the complicated features you want to implement. It's better to have something that half-works than nothing at all, and aside from the engines, the models won't be affected by their functionality. It should be easy to make a simple model too: You could do the longitudinal ribs in your normal map to save polygons if needed.

Have you any idea what kind of parts you'd like to make for it? Here's what I've come up with:

• Centre cells
  
• Nose cell
  
• Tail cell
  
• Fin
  
• Fin control surface
  
• Crew cupola
  
• Engines
  
• Cargo cell (hollow with opening doors)

[Tommygun]

Personally I would love to see something really retro with the airships like steam power.

Like this, but with a larger gas envelope.

http://i.imgur.com/1YzV5RG.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pjBE8Tr.jpg

[whistlehead]

@Pizzaoverhead: We'll see about the damaged parts - I think that's a thing to do later rather than at the start. As you say, first thing is to get the parts made. In terms of parts, that's pretty much what I'd come up with, though I might leave out the cargo bay for now. I'm thinking of having a radial fuel gondola part and the rest of the gondola parts (cabin, cargo, more fuel) are attached inline with that part. I'll pop a few rough diagrams of what I'm thinking up sometime soon to clarify.

@Tommygun: I'm going to stick with 30's style for now, but I already had plans for more modern ships to match the stock parts, and I see no reason not to make steam parts later on - I'm a bit of a steampunk fan. Tech tree integration could be fun!

The interest I'm getting is very encouraging - and I'm now very tempted to go ahead. Just need to make sure I don't prioritise this over my coursework!

Regards,

Chris

[Talisar]

- If I used small propellers as a replacement RCS system, could I animate the props?

I can't be much help to you, but for this one you should look at the FireSpitter plugin. Iirc, it has a module just for this

[whistlehead]

A *very* rough render mainly to show the scale I'm thinking - the envelope segments are 3.2 orange tanks high (or 24 metres for those of you stuck in the metric system).

I guess I could also do smaller ones, but this is the kind of size I had originally intended to make.

The final thing will have more polys on the front end and hugely better textures (hopefully). It also won't have the smoothing issue on the nose - though as I'm not sure what caused it I can't guarantee!

@Talisar - I'll have to download it, thanks.

Regards,

Chris

[Tommygun]

Nice looking, I would suggest not making them so big you can't assemble them in the hanger though.

[kiwiak]

How about some baloons?

Completly spherical:

Or with classic baloon shape.

This one coudl be just hot air baloon. Just carries some fuel for heating air inside. But cant controll whith way it is heading. Well, without wind implemented by squad it woudlnt be heading anywhere, right?

The way i can see it, these ballons woudl be for light probes or very brave but stupid kerbal on rover seat. Nothing heavier.

Edited December 11, 2013 by kiwiak

[Bluegobln]

When it comes to an object of that size, trust me, the game can handle a LOT of polygons. You should be able to do several hundred with ease and make that smooth as a baby's rump and not tax anyone's systems too badly. Unlike a lot of parts, yours is unlikely to be present in more than say 3-4 copies at a time, so you can actually afford to be pretty extreme with the model and not really worry too much.

Obviously lower/more efficient poly is better, but don't skimp on quality is what I am saying, there's no real harm in it.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Bluegobln

[whistlehead]

When it comes to an object of that size, trust me, the game can handle a LOT of polygons. You should be able to do several hundred with ease and make that smooth as a baby's rump and not tax anyone's systems too badly. Unlike a lot of parts, yours is unlikely to be present in more than say 3-4 copies at a time, so you can actually afford to be pretty extreme with the model and not really worry too much.

Obviously lower/more efficient poly is better, but don't skimp on quality is what I am saying, there's no real harm in it.

I think I see what you mean - it's the physics rather than the polys which drag KSP down, so such a large single entity = fewer parts = smoother running = polys matter less

As to balloons - I'm going to such with airships for now. Heck, I still don't know if what I'm planning is possible

[pizzaoverhead]

How about some baloons?

Completly spherical

You mean like a satelloon?

Or with classic baloon shape.

These kind of aerostats would be more suitable for the Hooligan Labs mod as they're dynamic: You're changing their lift, and their shape depends on their altitude.

[Camacha]

I would love proper balloons (and airships), as they are a valuable part of research in the real world. HL aircraft never seemed usable considering the standards parts need to have to be used in my games.

You models are definitly going to need some normalmapping. You could get away with very few polygons that way. I also would suggest contacting the makers of the FireSpitter mod. I am not sure I like all their models, but their plugin could be invaluable and they have been very helpful to me in the past.

Wing with normalmapping; a section without normalmapping can be seen around the RAF roundel.

[whistlehead]

While my experience of texturing does not stray further than diffuse and alpha right now, I've always wanted to develop further in these areas and I'll most certainly look into it.

I don't think baloons are going to happen just yet - airships first.

It might actually be easier to start with a modern style airship, as this wouldn't require the visible ribs of older ships. It would also look better with current stock parts and Firespitter - so I wouldn'tneed to think about my own engines or pods just yet, only the essentials - i.e. making it fly!

[JewelShisen]

This certainly seems interesting and i know i am interested to see where you take it. I know that once i learn C# i plan to start requiring the use of electricty to inflate the airships from HL.