[1.12.x] Ship Manifest (Crew, Science, & Resources) - v 6.0.8.0 - 28 Apr 23

[Papa_Joe]

"Empty vessel" on launchpad removes all resources from ship. However "fill vessel" doesn't replenish them back. Is that working as intended?

P.S. Will there ever be option to dump fuel/monopropellant?

Hmm. I thought I had corrected that a long time ago. I'll look into it.

Edit: I found the issue. Will be corrected in the next release.

As far as will there "ever" be an option to dump fuel or mono-propellant, I'm not sure I had "ever" heard that request before, so I'm not sure of the "ever" reference. Perhaps you posted in the Crew Manifest thread? But, since you mention it, it is a good idea, and I could add that. I'm assuming you are referring to "in flight"?

Also, in realism mode, dumping would be an issue, as venting would incur a thrust component (altering the flight trajectory) and have to be accounted for somehow. I can't just vent a part for free in realism mode. However, maybe with an event handler I could "simulate" it...

Standard mode for sure. Realism Mode, I'll have to think about.....

Edited February 13, 2014 by Papa_Joe

[Papa_Joe]

Hmm. I thought I had corrected that a long time ago. I'll look into it.

Edit: I found the issue. Will be corrected in the next release.

As far as will there "ever" be an option to dump fuel or mono-propellant, I'm not sure I had "ever" heard that request before, so I'm not sure of the "ever" reference. Perhaps you posted in the Crew Manifest thread? But, since you mention it, it is a good idea, and I could add that. I'm assuming you are referring to "in flight"?

Also, in realism mode, dumping would be an issue, as venting would incur a thrust component (altering the flight trajectory) and have to be accounted for somehow. I can't just vent a part for free in realism mode. However, maybe with an event handler I could "simulate" it...

Standard mode for sure. Realism Mode, I'll have to think about.....

Ok. So here is the latest:

1. Pre-Flight Mode Vessel Resource fill issue corrected. It prompted me to rewrite the entire process and I'm much happier with it. It now natively supports realism mode.

2. Added Dump Resource button to Resource list. Dumps a resource for the entire vessel. In Realism mode Dump buttons are available in Pre-Flight, but not available In-Flight.

3. Added Fill and Empty Crew buttons in Pre-Flight Mode. I promised I would

4. Added Mod Version number to Debug Window.

Yep, another update coming soon. ( I don't like bugs... )

[Papa_Joe]

Ok. So here is the latest:

1. Pre-Flight Mode Vessel Resource fill issue corrected. It prompted me to rewrite the entire process and I'm much happier with it. It now natively supports realism mode.

2. Added Dump Resource button to Resource list. Dumps a resource for the entire vessel. In Realism mode Dump buttons are available in Pre-Flight, but not available In-Flight.

3. Added Fill and Empty Crew buttons in Pre-Flight Mode. I promised I would

4. Added Mod Version number to Debug Window.

Yep, another update coming soon. ( I don't like bugs... )

Version 0.23.3.1.3 12 Feb 2014 has been released.

[acc]

Oh, some progress - nice!

But i would not include dumping. There already exists a part in the space shuttle engines pack that alows dumping fuels. And this feature exists even on the fuel balancer plugin.

A suggestion for resource transfer: a whitelist/blacklist config file for the fuels which allowed (or not) to transfer. As example deadly reentry has the heat shield as resource, so you can transfer it too

Sorry I missed earlier.

Good catch on that 0/0 display issue, but unfortunately we aren't far enough in the transfer process to get to that check. When it attempts to getdata from the source partmodule, it returns null. Something is not getting properly created. sorting it out now...

No problem and I'm glad it was helpfull.

Edited February 13, 2014 by acc

[Piamette]

The latest zip from spaceport download only includes the toolbar folder

[Papa_Joe]

Oh, some progress - nice!

But i would not include dumping. There already a part in the space shuttle engines pack that alows dumping fuels. And this feature exists even on the fuel balancer plugin.

In realism Mode it is restricted to the pad, and only those resources that can be moved. I'm thinking it should be OK, and "shouldn't" conflict with TAC.

Jut my thoughts.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Papa_Joe

[Papa_Joe]

The latest zip from spaceport download only includes the toolbar folder

OUCH!!!!

New Upload coming.

[Papa_Joe]

OUCH!!!!

New Upload coming.

I'm soooo... embarrassed... :\

SpacePort has been updated.

If your DL was missing the ShipManifest Folder, try downloading again.

My apologies!!

[Piamette]

Thanks for the update!

[SSSPutnik]

Might as well combine with Hyperedit and be done !

[likke_A_boss]

Might as well combine with Hyperedit and be done !

Hmm? I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying. This is just a simple way to balance different resources in your ship (kerbals, fuel, science). Some people may consider it cheaty, but no need to rage and compare to an actual cheat mod. This is a well-made mode that lots if people enjoy using and obviously has a lot of effort put into it. If you don't like it, you can keep it to yourself, and play however suits you. Thanks.

Edit: OK, deep breaths, sorry for my quick temper. Just frustrates me when someone's work gets insulted. I really should not post when I'm the one raging. Sorry again.

Edited February 13, 2014 by likke_A_boss

[Papa_Joe]

Hmm? I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying. This is just a simple way to balance different resources in your ship (kerbals, fuel, science). Some people may consider it cheaty, but no need to rage and compare to an actual cheat mod. This is a well-made mode that lots if people enjoy using and obviously has a lot of effort put into it. If you don't like it, you can keep it to yourself, and play however suits you. Thanks.

I'm not sure I would chastise SSSPutnik, but your point is well taken.

I have spent a bit of time considering the balance between "cheat" mode and "realism" mode. With that thinking in mind, I recently added a user request for a "Realism Lock" switch in the config file for those that wanted to play in real mode and didn't want to be "tempted" by the ease in which you could change the mode.

KSP has a great community, and there is a passionate following in the realism arena. I'm working hard to incorporate solid realism modes as best I can and make the mod a viable choice for realism style players.

All feedback is greatly appreciated!

Edited February 13, 2014 by Papa_Joe

[Mystique]

But i would not include dumping. There already exists a part in the space shuttle engines pack that alows dumping fuels. And this feature exists even on the fuel balancer plugin.

A suggestion for resource transfer: a whitelist/blacklist config file for the fuels which allowed (or not) to transfer. As example deadly reentry has the heat shield as resource, so you can transfer it too

Not everyone is using those shuttle engines (I tried and removed most of the parts since they're useless for me, thought some of them are cool). Using TAC fuel balancer together with SM seems kinda too much mods for one purpose, that's why I asked for dumping option (actually it was the only thing keeping me from removing TAC FB and crew manifest and using SM only to keep number of used mods down).

[Proot]

Looks very well. May I do a suggestion?:

- Science Transfers. Move science data from your experiments or other containers to your return vehicle!. Still early in implementation. works but need better realism features and restrictions.

This should only be possible if you had hard drives (like the Tarsier SpaceTech ones) in the vehicle return.

[Papa_Joe]

Not everyone is using those shuttle engines (I tried and removed most of the parts since they're useless for me, thought some of them are cool). Using TAC fuel balancer together with SM seems kinda too much mods for one purpose, that's why I asked for dumping option (actually it was the only thing keeping me from removing TAC FB and crew manifest and using SM only to keep number of used mods down).

Just curious, does the heatshield have a ResourceTransferMode? if it is set to "NONE", then it would be skipped in realism mode.

[Mystique]

Just curious, does the heatshield have a ResourceTransferMode? if it is set to "NONE", then it would be skipped in realism mode.

If you mean in part's cfg - I see no such thing there. And I don't see that kind of resource if CM window, at least not in realism mode.

[Fraz86]

Papa_Joe,

I think it's admirable how responsive you've been to players' requests, but I'd also like to voice concern regarding feature creep. This mod started out as a lightweight alternative to the TAC FB + CrewManifest combo; an uncomplicated tool to move Kerbals and resources from one module to another. This was exactly what I was looking for. However, this mod continues to add additional features, with plans to add even more, to the point that I'm considering switching back to CrewManifest + TAC FB, because it's starting to look like that combination might actually contain less bloat than what ShipManifest is headed toward. Of course it's your mod, and thus entirely up to you what you want to do with it, but I just wanted to speak up - in a thread largely filled with players requesting features - as someone who hopes you *don't* add more features.

[Papa_Joe]

If you mean in part's cfg - I see no such thing there. And I don't see that kind of resource if CM window, at least not in realism mode.

Not sure what resource is listed in the Heatshield. the configuration is likely built into the Resource definition (in code). if it shows up in standard mode and does not in realism mode, then the resource it uses is set to NONE.

If you get that behavior, then it is working as intended.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Papa_Joe

[Papa_Joe]

Papa_Joe,

I think it's admirable how responsive you've been to players' requests, but I'd also like to voice concern regarding feature creep. This mod started out as a lightweight alternative to the TAC FB + CrewManifest combo; an uncomplicated tool to move Kerbals and resources from one module to another. This was exactly what I was looking for. However, this mod continues to add additional features, with plans to add even more, to the point that I'm considering switching back to CrewManifest + TAC FB, because it's starting to look like that combination might actually contain less bloat than what ShipManifest is headed toward. Of course it's your mod, and thus entirely up to you what you want to do with it, but I just wanted to speak up - in a thread largely filled with players requesting features - as someone who hopes you *don't* add more features.

This is a very valid concern.

I've been managing that with the idea that the interface will remain the same. If I cannot add it within the existing framework, and keep it "intuitive", then it does not belong.

With that said, it was my "original" vision (at least personally) to handle crew science and Resources, as they lend themselves to the "theme" of this mod, and fit the interface nicely.

In terms of "bloat", if you can kind of describe what you might think constitues that, I'm always interested in hearing. For example, several have requested multiple part transfers, but it really does not "fit" within the current framework of the interface, and starts to get more complex. Bear in mind the other feature I will be adding is Checklists, and that IS certainly a larger feature, and would then necessitate saving files to the user's gamedata folder.

So, that "multi part xfers feature" I was considering adding to the Checklists feature. In any flight, part of ship's "manifest" would be the Flight Plan. Think of Checklists as that Plan you can set for each ship you design, and tailor for each flight, and kind of "program" the flight plan.

I welcome your thoughts on this, and and it may well be too much for this mod, and need to be a separate mod unto itself. Alternatively, if I were to allow you to configure the features available, would that fit within your thinking? If you don't want to use the feature, disable it in config, and it is not there...

Edited February 13, 2014 by Papa_Joe

[Fraz86]

I've been managing that with the idea that the interface will remain the same. If I cannot add it within the existing framework, and keep it "intuitive", then it does not belong.

I like that approach.

With that said, it was my "original" vision (at least personally) to handle crew science and Resources, as they lend themselves to the "theme" of this mod, and fit the interface nicely.

Agreed, having a common interface for all transferable entities (i.e., resources, crew, and science) seems elegant and intuitive. I am a bit skeptical about the science transfer function (mostly concerned regarding how it might be abusable), but I admit I haven't really played with it yet. Does transferring data allow the science model to reset and repeat the experiment? Because that would seem like cheating to me...

In terms of "bloat", if you can kind of describe what you might think constitues that, I'm always interested in hearing. For example, several have requested multiple part transfers, but it really does not "fit" within the current framework of the interface, and starts to get more complex.

In my opinion, multi-part transfers and other complex transfer operations ought to be outside the scope of this mod. Honestly, even the "Empty" and "Fill" functions seem a bit superfluous, and they would even be cheating in the context of certain mods (e.g., with a life support mod, using "Empty" to magically remove CO2, or, with MissionController, using "Fill" to give yourself free fuel on the launchpad instead of paying for it). Might you allow these functions to be disabled in the config file?

Bear in mind the other feature I will be adding is Checklists, and that IS certainly a larger feature, and would then necessitate saving files to the user's gamedata folder. So, that "multi part xfers feature" I was considering adding to the Checklists feature. In any flight, part of ship's "manifest" would be the Flight Plan. Think of Checklists as that Plan you can set for each ship you design, and tailor for each flight, and kind of "program" the flight plan.

I welcome your thoughts on this, and and it may well be too much for this mod, and need to be a separate mod unto itself. Alternatively, if I were to allow you to configure the features available, would that fit within your thinking? If you don't want to use the feature, disable it in config, and it is not there...

Your Checklists concept sounds interesting, but it seems to me that it would make more sense as a separate mod. It seems that ShipManifest has a cohesive purpose as a "transfer utility" and, while vaguely related, your Checklists concept serves a separate purpose. I can certainly imagine some players wanting one or the other (i.e., ShipManifest or Checklists) without wanting both. Alternatively, simply allowing features to be disabled in the config would also be reasonable and appreciated.

Last but not least, if you would consider integration with the new Connected Living Space API, you would be my hero. You could make it optional via the config file, of course, for those who don't want it.

[Papa_Joe]

I like that approach.

Agreed, having a common interface for all transferable entities (i.e., resources, crew, and science) seems elegant and intuitive. I am a bit skeptical about the science transfer function (mostly concerned regarding how it might be abusable), but I admit I haven't really played with it yet. Does transferring data allow the science model to reset and repeat the experiment? Because that would seem like cheating to me...

Good concern and will be addressed. Currently Science is still early in dev. I'm planning on realism updates that will address the "cheat" ability of sending data multiple times, and set experiments as consumed.

In my opinion, multi-part transfers and other complex transfer operations ought to be outside the scope of this mod. Honestly, even the "Empty" and "Fill" functions seem a bit superfluous, and they would even be cheating in the context of certain mods (e.g., with a life support mod, using "Empty" to magically remove CO2, or, with MissionController, using "Fill" to give yourself free fuel on the launchpad instead of paying for it). Might you allow these functions to be disabled in the config file?

Empty and Fill buttons only work on the pad, before launch. This makes them good for getting an empty weight for your vessel, and for tweaking your ship before launch. I see that as something ground crew can do, so it didn't seem like cheating. Once in flight, "you have what you have". Shoot, in realism mode, even the resource dump buttons do not work in flight, as that would impart a thrust component, and would requiree a fair amount of math and graphics to simulate...

However, I did not consider Kethane and cost accounting for fuel, etc. So I can easily add a config switch to allow turning it off.

Your Checklists concept sounds interesting, but it seems to me that it would make more sense as a separate mod. It seems that ShipManifest has a cohesive purpose as a "transfer utility" and, while vaguely related, your Checklists concept serves a separate purpose. I can certainly imagine some players wanting one or the other (i.e., ShipManifest or Checklists) without wanting both. Alternatively, simply allowing features to be disabled in the config would also be reasonable and appreciated.

Ya, I had been debating back and forth on adding it to this mod or making it separate. With the significantly different interface, I may just make it a separate plugin, and add a button to toolbar. I AM going to be doing it though.

Last but not least, if you would consider integration with the new Connected Living Space API, you would be my hero. You could make it optional via the config file, of course, for those who don't want it.

I'd not heard of this plugin. Based on my initial glance at it, I could see where you are going, but you can go anywhere on the ship via EVA, so I'd not considered pass thru as an issue. I suppose, for those that want to use it as a "strictly inside activity", that would make sense. I will look into integration.

Thanks so much for the well considered response.

[Fraz86]

I'd not heard of this plugin. Based on my initial glance at it, I could see where you are going, but you can go anywhere on the ship via EVA, so I'd not considered pass thru as an issue. I suppose, for those that want to use it as a "strictly inside activity", that would make sense. I will look into integration.

It's mostly about immersiveness. I agree that the gameplay implications are minimal, though I would point out that EVA transfers require a small amount of monopropellant, and there is a small risk of a bad outcome (e.g., flying off into space). Mostly, though, I would just enjoy the roleplay of being forced to EVA if I'm transferring between unconnected modules.

[Papa_Joe]

It's mostly about immersiveness. I agree that the gameplay implications are minimal, though I would point out that EVA transfers require a small amount of monopropellant, and there is a small risk of a bad outcome (e.g., flying off into space). Mostly, though, I would just enjoy the roleplay of being forced to EVA if I'm transferring between unconnected modules.

Makes perfect sense. I have PM'd the Plugin author and indicated I would be looking into integration.

[Mystique]

Papa_Joe, is it intended that each science transfer takes 2 clicks ("recv"+"xfer") instead of just 1? Anyway it's better than crawl around ship and collecting science from everywhere manually, but kinda strange anyway

[Papa_Joe]

Papa_Joe, is it intended that each science transfer takes 2 clicks ("recv"+"xfer") instead of just 1? Anyway it's better than crawl around ship and collecting science from everywhere manually, but kinda strange anyway

Yes. Consider that you can pull from multiple modules, and send it to one of possibly multiple modules. Since modders can add modules to a part using Module manager, or via part config, I have to allow for that possibility. Typically we are moving science into our return vehicle, but if it is modded, they may have another part module added... So, for now, you need to select the target part, then the target module then xfer the desired source.

But, now that I think of it, if there is only one part module, I "could" default it to selected. that would cover a large percentage of the time I think, and save a click.

I'll do that.