What if China militarized the moon?

[DaveofDefeat]

Why would anybody care?

[Tiberion]

The USA once threatened to blow up the moon with nuclear weapons when they were done with it, just to prevent the USSR from landing on it. Just goes to show that those Apollo-era guys weren't so smart after all.

Please, please, please do some research before making these sorts of claims. They were not trying to blow up the moon, but blow up one bomb to create a flash and plume as a response to Sputnik. You may not realize it, but Sputnik wasn't a "look at the cool space thing Russia did" moment, it was a "Look at the frightening thing Russia can do with missiles now" moment. The Air Force wanted to do something as shocking to set back the Soviets.

And it wasn't a plan as much as a 'study' - Can we do this? Should we?

They came up with the right answer, thank you very much.

Oh, and part of the study? One Mr. Carl Sagan. Maybe they were a little smart?

As for the Chinese threat. 0% worried. It's a communist regime rattling their sabres, trying to look powerful. Happens every day.

If they did try, someone would have to take their toys away though, because trying to lob missiles back from the Moon and have them re-enter as such a high speed and narrow entry cooridoors is only going to result in nuclear materials spread over the upper atmosphere.

Really, ti only makes me take their space program less seriously. But only a little, because its probably just some propaganda officer earning his pay.

Edit: Sorry, needed to address one more thing:

AFAIK China never signed and ratified that treaty so wouldn't feel themselves bound by it.

And even if, if it's in their national best interest they'd just ignore the treaty and do it anyway. As they're right now the only country that has the capability of putting heavy stuff on the moon they need not fear their plans being interrupted before they can set up defensive systems to stop any incoming strike...

Really? Why does everyone forget Curiosity? It's only been slightly over a year since we landed a Full-Sized Car packed with Science on Mars.

The Chinese lander is cool and all, but lets not get carried away and think they're somehow technologically superior now. The US and Russia could definitely do it, probably the ESA too. Maybe Japan and India with a little aid. There is a difference in choosing not to go to the moon and being unable to. (And note that no-one, including China, has modern equipment capable of landing a man there currently)

Edited December 22, 2013 by Tiberion

[Kryten]

The Russians can't do it. Their supposed next lander has, since being announced, been delayed by more years than it's actually existed as a project. The design's based on Phobos-grunt...

[Moar Boosters]

Really, ti only makes me take their space program less seriously. But only a little, because its probably just some propaganda officer earning his pay.

It's just a journalist trying to grab people's attention. The expert said the moon could hypothetically be militarized. We know this already......but we also know it'd be a massive waste of time. It was the journalist who misquoted for a more dramatic headline.

[Tiberion]

It's just a journalist trying to grab people's attention. The expert said the moon could hypothetically be militarized. We know this already......but we also know it'd be a massive waste of time. It was the journalist who misquoted for a more dramatic headline.

Yeah, the article is short on specific quotes, and the article title is pretty much just standard click-baiting, just like the "US wanted to blow up the moon" articles I mentioned earlier (I'm looking at you, Huffington Post)

Kryten: Well China doesn't have the vehicle to build a base there yet either. I was speaking generally, that Russia has the technology to do it if it became urgent. I was just refuting the idea that China is the only program capable of that sort of thing, and were thus invulnerable.

[Stone Blue]

I think militarization is not the direction a smart China would go....There is really no need to....After seeing the US and Russia bully it out over world domination during the Cold War, and then the US pretty much winning out and becoming the World's Biggest Bully #1.....China has seen how that hasnt really worked out well for the US in the past 3 decades...

No, I am more scared that China, (especially since *ahem* "Mister" Cheney and Pals, (The PuppetMasters), used Mr. Bush, Jr (The World's Biggest Puppet), to sell the US' soul to China, to fund the US' latest high-stakes bully matches), does not, and most likely WILL not need to face off against us, or any one else militarily, since they already OWN the US monetarily....Why would they want to destroy us, when we owe them so much money, and they are already buying up US land and businesses?

I am more afraid that they will surpass everyone and become the world's Single Space Power, and with the new found science and resources the Moon has to offer, will dominate the world thru the Global economy...Without ever having to fire a shot....And that Chinese will become the primary spoken language in the US....

Thats one thing I am angry at the Tea Party and Republicans for, is the latest shenanigans they pulled with the October government shutdown....For those three weeks, they just completely WASTED $24 BILLION dollars of tax-payers money....That is 150% of NASA's WHOLE, allotted budget for 2014 ($17 Billion)....We could have more than DOUBLED NASA's budget with the money they just pi$$ed away for nothing....They are just HANDING over the beginning of a new space race to China.... GGGrrrrrr!!!...Ok rant off....lol

Edited December 22, 2013 by Stone Blue

[Tiberion]

I think militarization is not the direction a smart china would go....There is really no need to....After seeing the US and Russia bully it out over world domination during the cold war, and then the US pretty much winning out and becoming the World's Biggest Bully #1.....China has seen how that hasnt really worked out well for the US in the past 3 decades...

No, I am more scared that China, (especially since *ahem* "Mister" Cheney and Pals, (The PuppetMasters), used Mr. Bush, Jr (The World's Biggest Puppet), to sell the US' soul to China, to find the US' latest high-stakes bully matches), does not, and most likely WILL not need to face off against us, or any one else militarily, since they already OWN the US....

I am more afraid that they will surpass everyone and become the world's Single Space Power, and with the new found science and resources the Moon has to offer, will dominate the world thru the Global economy...Without ever having to fire a shot....

Thats one thing I am angry at the Tea Party and Republicans for, is the latest shenanigans they pulled with the October government shutdown....For those three weeks, they just completely WASTED $24 BILLION dollars of tax-payers money....That is 150% of NASA's allotted WHOLE, allotted budget for 2014 ($17 Billion)....We could have more than DOUBLED NASA's budget with the money they just pi$$ed away for nothing....They are just HANDING over the beginning of a new space race to China.... GGGrrrrrr!!!...Ok rant off....lol

Hey man, dial it back a notch. If you make it personal and start tossing insults, you're just gonna get the discussion closed. Also, you're not coming across very.. reasonable.

[ZedNova]

#1. They don't have the technology to even put a man on it yet, much less any sort of long-term structure.

#2. Even if they did, it would be a waste of time considering one 155mm HE shell could pretty much decimate any structure on the moon. Throwing shrapnel everywhere, piercing spacesuits and habitation modules.

#3. I'm pretty sure the most of the world powers today are against anyone Militarizing the moon.

#4. Missiles in orbit are more scary

Edited December 22, 2013 by ZedNova

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

If this happened, wouldn't the US Fund NASA more? I mean, for shooting missiles at the moon. But it isn't a budget cut

[Joshington]

I think militarization is not the direction a smart China would go....There is really no need to....After seeing the US and Russia bully it out over world domination during the Cold War, and then the US pretty much winning out and becoming the World's Biggest Bully #1.....China has seen how that hasnt really worked out well for the US in the past 3 decades...

No, I am more scared that China, (especially since *ahem* "Mister" Cheney and Pals, (The PuppetMasters), used Mr. Bush, Jr (The World's Biggest Puppet), to sell the US' soul to China, to fund the US' latest high-stakes bully matches), does not, and most likely WILL not need to face off against us, or any one else militarily, since they already OWN the US monetarily....Why would they want to destroy us, when we owe them so much money, and they are already buying up US land and businesses?

I am more afraid that they will surpass everyone and become the world's Single Space Power, and with the new found science and resources the Moon has to offer, will dominate the world thru the Global economy...Without ever having to fire a shot....And that Chinese will become the primary spoken language in the US....

Thats one thing I am angry at the Tea Party and Republicans for, is the latest shenanigans they pulled with the October government shutdown....For those three weeks, they just completely WASTED $24 BILLION dollars of tax-payers money....That is 150% of NASA's WHOLE, allotted budget for 2014 ($17 Billion)....We could have more than DOUBLED NASA's budget with the money they just pi$$ed away for nothing....They are just HANDING over the beginning of a new space race to China.... GGGrrrrrr!!!...Ok rant off....lol

Are you even talking about China militarizing the moon or just ranting?

[Kryten]

If this happened, wouldn't the US Fund NASA more? I mean, for shooting missiles at the moon. But it isn't a budget cut

The US space program(/s) is(/are) a lot bigger than NASA. Whenever a spysat or weather satellite is launched, for example, it's a joint effort of NOAA/the NRO and the USAF, and NASA doesn't get a dime. Anything military in space other than recon is pretty much purely the USAF's remit.

[SuperFastJellyfish]

Edit: Not worth it. I shouldn't derail the thread.

Edited December 23, 2013 by SuperFastJellyfish

[Kilmeister]

Hrm, spend trillions on building a missile platform on the moon. Redesign our missiles to survive extended life in a vacuum. And it only reduces the strike time from 30 or so minutes to 3+ days. Sign me up!

(Mutually Assured Stupidity)

Would be a rather akward 3 days at the U.N. China would have to pull the ultimate chewbacca defense.

[WhiteWeasel]

Exactly. If you can just send a single mission to an asteroid that will not be efficient or fast but will completely remove your enemy in 5-10 years then you do the launch and suck it up for a while then laugh as they panic like ant under a descending foot.

You mean 5-10 years your enemy will spend unloading their entire military arsenal on you?

[jwenting]

Are you even talking about China militarizing the moon or just ranting?

his entire post can be summed up as "Bush did it". Says 'nuf.

Militarising the moon has its advantages, but as a launch base for a strike on earth it's not an ideal choice.

Maybe as a launch base for a strike to take over AFTER a previous nuclear war has run its course, kinda like an ark with a lot of guns.

As a listening post it's just about ideal.

[jwenting]

You mean 5-10 years your enemy will spend unloading their entire military arsenal on you?

that's why you tell the world that the mission to that asteroid was a scientific one, to bring one back to earth orbit for study to see if it's feasible to start mining the things...

Then when it's say a few hours out you send out a Tweet that you've lost control over the spacecraft that's supposed to bring it into orbit, oops, we apologise for the inconvenience.

Edited December 24, 2013 by jwenting

[dharak1]

Better yet, don't tell them at all about how it's heading for Earth. Civilian casualties be damned. Take out the enemy at all costs. Withdraw troops a few weeks before impact or before they see it.

[NASAFanboy]

Better yet, don't tell them at all about how it's heading for Earth. Civilian casualties be damned. Take out the enemy at all costs. Withdraw troops a few weeks before impact or before they see it.

And then the DoD will pick it up, and China will have a lot of explaing to do in the five minutes before American ICBMS pound their country to pieces. NASA and the DoD aren't stupid, they regularly look through space with radar.

Basically, China wouldn't be able to establish a lunar missile base. If anyones established one, its the United States (And adhering to forum rules, I will not go further into this), and even that is likely rubbish. What, would be the point of building a multi-billion dollar white elephant on the Moon that can hit targets on Earth after a three day transit? Nothing. No point at all. China launch a single missile, everyone will launch there's and gang up on China, and proceed to pound it to pieces in less than two days.

A lunar missile base is no threat to us. Any launches will be quickly picked up and the responsible country obliterated.

[asmi]

AFAIK China never signed and ratified that treaty so wouldn't feel themselves bound by it.

And even if, if it's in their national best interest they'd just ignore the treaty and do it anyway. As they're right now the only country that has the capability of putting heavy stuff on the moon they need not fear their plans being interrupted before they can set up defensive systems to stop any incoming strike...

That's not even close to being truth. Their most powerful rocket has payload capability approximately equal to Soyuz, so I just mention that Russia has Zenit and Proton (former have payload capability of 1.5 times the Soyuz have, latter - 2.5 times), and US have Atlas-V and Delta-4, both of which are Proton-class (~20-25 t to LEO), and ESA have Ariane-5 which is in that class too.

Edited December 25, 2013 by asmi

[TheShadow1138]

hmm, the militarisation of space treaty is not the outer space treaty... The outer space treaty bars them from claiming the moon and its resources as their own, no more.

The Outer Space Treaty is officially titled, "Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies", and Article IV of the treaty states:

"States Parties to the Treaty undertake not to place in orbit around the Earth any objects carrying nuclear weapons or any kinds of weapons of mass destruction, install such weapons on celestial bodies, or station such weapons in outer space in any other manner.

The Moon and other celestial bodies shall be used by all States Parties to the Treaty exclusively for peaceful purposes. The establishment of military bases, instal- lations and fortifications, the testing of any type of weapons and the conduct of military manoeuvres on celestial bodies shall be forbidden. The use of military personnel for scientific research or for any other peaceful purposes shall not be prohibited. The use of any equipment or facility necessary for peaceful exploration of the Moon and other celestial bodies shall also not be prohibited."

[Comrade Jenkens]

And why would China even want to militarise the moon. It would just put them on bad terms with everyone else and is a complete waste of money!

[camlost]

Can you explain? I am not at all knowledgeable on the past and future plans of China, so I would really love to hear!

That is just something the CPC pull up to explain free market policies in the past 30 years. Nobody cares about it now. As for future space plans of China, there is none for after 2020. Mars landing? Man on the moon? Spaceplanes? A lot has been proposed but nothing has been decided yet.

[Brethern]

Not quite, it prevents weapons of mass destruction being placed in outer space.

So no biological, chemical or nuclear.

Conventional weapons, kinetic kill and lasers are fine.

But seriously putting weapons on the moon is stupid. considering that orbit is much better.

[m4rt14n]

vae victis

[lodestar]

What if China actually began to militarize the moon? How would other space faring nations react, and would this have a positive or negative influence on and space travel and exploration?

The thing is, why would China do that?

I don't think that leads to another space race because the context is very different from the US vs. USSR during the Cold War. Both sides knew a military conflict would be devastating for everyone and nothing would be gained, and that was precisely how to avoid it. They had to keep up militarily with each other, so it wouldn't leave a weakness to be exploited and allows one side to destroy the other without assuring its own destruction, while at the same time pursuing alternative non-military strategies. In a sense, the Space Race was part of an strategy to beat the USSR economically. The US knew the USSR couldn't compete with them economically, so if the financial boundaries of the space program were pushed further and further, eventually whey wouldn't keep up. This was the whole point of the Strategic Defense Initiative, the Star Wars program. It was deemed incredibly expensive and even unrealistic by many, but that didn't matter for the real purpose. It didn't have to be built, the US only needed the soviets to believe it would be built. They would be pressed to do something similar to keep it up, and they knew they couldn't afford it. Eventually, they changed their global strategy with the Glasnost and Perestroika, sacrificing cohesion, but keeping the main objectives alive. Their strategy was political and ideological, using agents of influence and creating multiple cells in the developing world.

The situation with China is nothing like that. The current power balance between globalist blocks is nothing like the bipolar balance during the Cold War, it's a consequence of how it ended. As long as the intersection of interests between the three major blocks is above their own particular interests, the situation is kept pretty much as it is, and neither block can break that balance without losing leverage. There's just too much co-dependence, in economy and politics. If China decided to pull a stunt like that, it wouldn't drag the world into a direct military conflict, or another space race. It would simply drag the world into an economic and political crisis where the two blocks left will do everything to constrain China economically and politically, so that whatever military leverage they gain from putting missiles in the moon, or in orbit, won't be worth anything. Sure, there would be localized conflicts since some people wouldn't accept taking orders from someone else to stop doing business with China, but definitely not a global scale conflict. Of course, this also assumes the chinese leaders are reasonably sane and wouldn't do something stupid just to prove something, like North Korea seems to do.

As frustrating as that can be to space enthusiasts, I doubt we would ever have another space race with unrestrained funding, fueled by ideology and political conflict. The world really isn't like that anymore. Today it's much cheaper and efficient to change what people think of the world than to change the world they live. Back then, it was thought it would be important as a symbol to be the first in space, the first on the moon, etc. Today it's much simpler to convince people that these things don't matter, or that whoever is first don't matter, etc. Frankly, today if China gets to Mars first, most people won't even care, and some will just be happy that any man did. Some will actually wish it was the US, but it's not that important anymore. The future of space travel, if there's one, definitely lies in commercial space flight, not government funded operations, civil or military.

Edited February 4, 2014 by lodestar