What will KSP become?

[boxman]

2. hate to break it to you, but the way the gaming industry right now as a whole is headed, its more towards casual gamers, as they are the larger portion of the consuming populace, so, it makes fiscal sense to tailor to them, but as others have said, Squad has essentially said: heres a universe, parts, go at it as you see fit, OH, you wanna have a 'goal'? heres career mode <including incarnations YET to be seen of career mode> have fun!

look boxman, they are also going to leave physics as they are, so, again, feel free to tailor how YOU play to YOUR chosen difficulty. If that means no time or physics warp to get to eeloo then no time or physics warp. what ever it means to you, do it, its your copy of the game

I know there is a big market when it comes to casual gamers, but this game is not one of those that will ever be interesting to the average casual gamer. If they want to go that route then it would make more sense to become a mobile developer and develop a completely different game for tablets/smartphones.

Even the rapier engine they added had only benefit of making it easier to make SSTO. I dont mind that they added it, but there has literally been nothing added for the more advanced players since .18 or .19 when rover wheels was added.

The only good thing for me that came from the last update was the individual thrust and fuel feature and the optimizations.

When money is implemented they will probably make that so easy that it is impossible to fail as well like they did with science.

[boxman]

Career mode was implemented 2 months ago, and still needs the other 2/3rds of the system to become anything like what is should be.

I bet if they implemented resources, and you mastered them, you would still be at the same state of mind.

I know nothing will ever bring back the feeling of achievement or "terror" that I gave me back in earlier days. But I know for a fact that this game would be fun to play if I had an actual reason to go places. Right now there is no point in building for example a colony but with resources the possibilities would be endless.

The current career mode is also something that ends, while resources is something that would never really be fully drained in a game that has a whole solar system.

Now when you have unlocked the science tree you are just thrown back into sandbox mode...

[Unabled]

Yes and career mode in its entirety would have almost endless possibilities.

You already have some basic science experiments and sample gathering...well the next thing being worked on is contracts plus money.

The possibilities with contracts... Wow you could go almost anywhere with them. A contract to collect samples from specific spots on a planet...from specific features... To collect scientific data from regions, to build a craft to certain specifications, or to build satellites.

You could even have a contract for a sort of space tourism. I don't know, but it is a system that could be expanded on quite a bit along with the current science system.

The tech tree unfortunately has to end at some point, but the science experiments and career more in general does not.

Heck there is a whole solar system's worth of knowledge to be gleaned from experiments!

At this time squad seems to be developing career mode in steps, starting with the early bit of it which of course is more about the new player.

As they continue, they will be working on the mid/late game career type stuff. I mean it would have to be, because that's what comes next... The tech tree is not the whole of career mode.

[AlamoVampire]

Hey boxman, here is some free advice: take a break from the game. go play a different game for a while. I had to shortly after .22 came out because I slammed science points like they were going out of style. Had the tree maxed out in 5-6 FLIGHTS. No joke on that either. It burned me right out. I took a break for some time and only just came back in the last week or two, and it feels fresh as fresh gets.

Also boxman, i want you to consider something. They can spend countless hours making new parts and trying to push the boulder up the mountain to more complex systems, but that would not be healthy for them as programmers or us as players or even more to the point, to the game itself. Do we have a ton of stuff right now? yes. Do we need more? no, well, not right now. Right now, they have and should continue to smooth the game out and optimize what we have. They have pushed some things in this game as far as they can with what we have right now. I wish I could find the post Harvester did, he had this neat graph showing this, but, they can put in a HUGE effort for a TINY reward in say flight/parts OR, they can let that go for now, and put in a moderate effort for yet a still large payoff in career mode, or better yet, a moderate effort to optimize the game and perhaps see it get pushed into 64 bit land and smooth it out a HUGE way.

It is better for them to give us tiny improvements in terms of optimizations and a single part here or a pair of parts there while boosting the back end code.

Patience my fellow kerbonaut, patience! We are all headed for Eeloo and have ONLY just made it into orbit around kerbin, we have a LONG ride ahead of us

[SpacedCowboy]

I Love

I love KSP just the way it is, I'm just an old man, ( technical neandrethal ), Hell I don,t even know how to copy and paste ! But, I wish they would expand the sandbox mode with new parts and such, (screw mods).Expand the Kerbol solar system! I love the "play ground" as it is. Money and resources turns it into just another, blah blah game !

[Eric S]

I know nothing will ever bring back the feeling of achievement or "terror" that I gave me back in earlier days. But I know for a fact that this game would be fun to play if I had an actual reason to go places. Right now there is no point in building for example a colony but with resources the possibilities would be endless.

But resources aren't that reason. I've played with kethane extensively, and other than the first time I detected kethane and the first time a drill started filling a tank, it added no thrill to the game. It enabled me to do missions that I wouldn't have otherwise pulled off, but all my mining colonies basically got ignored as soon as I finished them. This is coming from a player that has always been focused on the economy/infrastructure of any game I played, so it should be right up my alley.

The current career mode is also something that ends, while resources is something that would never really be fully drained in a game that has a whole solar system.

Now when you have unlocked the science tree you are just thrown back into sandbox mode...

Well yeah, but science and the tech tree isn't intended to be all of career mode. And as for resources lasting forever, "Yay, yet another body for me strip mine for no purpose other than to get resources that only get used for setting up more mining bases. Shoot me now, please." Resources aren't a goal, they're a means to achieve a goal, and if the game runs out of goals, then the resources are pointless. Unless there are goals that can only be achieved through resources, then resources aren't going to push back the point at which a player gets bored of the game.

[AlamoVampire]

Spacedcowboy: while i respect your choice to not use mods i must also question that choice. You claim you would like new parts but you willingly ignore a wonderful path to awesome and plentiful parts and tools?

[Merinsan]

I know nothing will ever bring back the feeling of achievement or "terror" that I gave me back in earlier days. But I know for a fact that this game would be fun to play if I had an actual reason to go places. Right now there is no point in building for example a colony but with resources the possibilities would be endless.

The current career mode is also something that ends, while resources is something that would never really be fully drained in a game that has a whole solar system.

Now when you have unlocked the science tree you are just thrown back into sandbox mode...

Up until about 2 weeks ago, I was in the group that thought Squads decision to shelve resource mining was stupid. I then, for the first time ever, installed a mod, 2 in fact - KAS and Kethane.

I haven't done much with KAS, but there seems to be some really useful things in there.

Kethane on the other hand, I've done a bit already with it. What I found is it's not particularly useful. It basically gives you a way to refuel a ship on another planet, without setting up refueling stations. I was thinking I would set up a mining base, but in the end I just equipped a ship with a drill and converter and hopped between biomes on the Mun sucking out the science. As for scanning the Mun, I did it over night, which was inconvenient at minimum. I honestly couldn't be bothered scanning anywhere else, because why? There is no reason at all to do it.

In order for resource mining to be relevant at all, it needs to be for something you can't get otherwise, for example mining fuel for an interstellar drive to go to other stars.

[zarniw00p]

KSP sandbox, in it's current version, is still a very unfinished game. There are still a ton of features that play an important role in space flight that are not yet included:

When you design a rocket in real life you have to think about aerodynamics. You can't just slap a rover on top of it, you have to cover it in fairings. We don't have those yet and we only have a very basic aerodynamics simulation.

We still have no reentry heat. Angle of reentry, heat shields, etc. are an integral part in the design of reentry vehicles, just think of the space shuttle. KSP is missing this whole aspect, you just fall to the ground and that's it.

We still have a very limited amount of parts. At the moment, it is very difficult to recreate missions like Apollo or the Space Shuttle, because essential parts are lacking (very large fuel tanks, cargo bay, spaces shuttle engines, etc.). Just think about it, you can't play the two most important missions in NASAs history because we still don't have the parts for it. Of course, there are ways to design around that with the current parts, but it's still no substitution for dedicated parts.

When you send astronauts into space for months (or years) they need living space and resources (oxygen, water, food, etc.). This is one of the main real life difficulties in the design of manned interplanetary missions (because you have to carry a lot of stuff with you). In KSP, you can send a single Kerbal in a small pod on a year-long flight to Jool without worrying about life support. Of course, it's easier that way, but we're missing out on a very important aspect of manned space flight.

Now that resources are cancelled, we won't be able to mine other planets for fuel and do something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Direct

As others have already said, not including other star systems is like excluding the ultimate frontier of space flight from the game.

So, KSP sandbox is far from complete, because it lacks a ton of features that are an integral part of space flight. Focusing development on career mode and multiplayer won't help to change that.

[TMS]

And as for resources lasting forever, "Yay, yet another body for me strip mine for no purpose other than to get resources that only get used for setting up more mining bases. Shoot me now, please." Resources aren't a goal, they're a means to achieve a goal, and if the game runs out of goals, then the resources are pointless. Unless there are goals that can only be achieved through resources, then resources aren't going to push back the point at which a player gets bored of the game.

I tend to agree with this. I think the issue of dropping the extensive resource system gets people wound up, but without a goal for it to contribute to, it's really just another grind-fest.

[Luis]

I tend to agree with this. I think the issue of dropping the extensive resource system gets people wound up, but without a goal for it to contribute to, it's really just another grind-fest.

Exactly. Contracts on the other hand, provide a way to add an essentially unlimited number of goals. Geological features could be added to planets in specific locations that required pin-point landings or rovers to reach. New science parts that need to be taken to remote locations to use. Much more emphasis on bringing Kerbals back safely. Permanent bases so that long term experiments can be run. I'm really excited to see what possibilities are opened up.

[Fourjays]

Maybe it is coincidence and I'm just "burnt out" on KSP, but I've certainly not enjoyed playing it as much since I started my career game.

There needs to be a bit more of a dynamic element to science somehow, rather than just the flavour texts and an associated number. It feels too simple and "gamey" right now. I get far more enjoyment out of the "real" science I can do in KSP ("what's the temperature of this", "whats the pressure of that", "lets map this moon", etc), so I'd like to see something added that encourages/rewards this kind of science. Perhaps a table of temperature, pressure, etc that you have to fill up by doing the appropriate missions and you get some sort of secondary boost or reward for completing them (perhaps bonus % on science from subsequent manned missions to the same planet). Would add some more gameplay beyond completing the tech tree and give a purpose to the currently useless unmanned missions.

[FITorion]

I tend to agree with this. I think the issue of dropping the extensive resource system gets people wound up, but without a goal for it to contribute to, it's really just another grind-fest.

But there was a goal. resources would be used to build permanent structures such as launch facilities, VABs and other colony like buildings. That enables a truly multi-world civilization.

[Xetalim]

KSP sandbox, in it's current version, is still a very unfinished game. There are still a ton of features that play an important role in space flight that are not yet included:

*blablabla

So, KSP sandbox is far from complete, because it lacks a ton of features that are an integral part of space flight. Focusing development on career mode and multiplayer won't help to change that.

This: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/61712-How-important-is-a-resource-system-to-you/page8?p=843999#post843999

[PDCWolf]

But resources aren't that reason. I've played with kethane extensively, and other than the first time I detected kethane and the first time a drill started filling a tank, it added no thrill to the game. It enabled me to do missions that I wouldn't have otherwise pulled off, but all my mining colonies basically got ignored as soon as I finished them. This is coming from a player that has always been focused on the economy/infrastructure of any game I played, so it should be right up my alley.

Well yeah, but science and the tech tree isn't intended to be all of career mode. And as for resources lasting forever, "Yay, yet another body for me strip mine for no purpose other than to get resources that only get used for setting up more mining bases. Shoot me now, please." Resources aren't a goal, they're a means to achieve a goal, and if the game runs out of goals, then the resources are pointless. Unless there are goals that can only be achieved through resources, then resources aren't going to push back the point at which a player gets bored of the game.

I tend to agree with this. I think the issue of dropping the extensive resource system gets people wound up, but without a goal for it to contribute to, it's really just another grind-fest.

You guys are missing a big, BIG part of the picture.

But Kethane is not even close to what resources was supposed to be. Is like trying to say "Driving a F1 car is boring, I've done it on my iPhone and it's really shallow". Resources were supposed to be a core system that would set the bases for further features like life support, part repairing, getting money to finance your space program, etc.

Exactly. Contracts on the other hand, provide a way to add an essentially unlimited number of goals. Geological features could be added to planets in specific locations that required pin-point landings or rovers to reach. New science parts that need to be taken to remote locations to use. Much more emphasis on bringing Kerbals back safely. Permanent bases so that long term experiments can be run. I'm really excited to see what possibilities are opened up.

Like the totally epic skyrim infinite quests :^), a great way to make another grind based mechanic, create a base statement like "Send part -random part- to -random planet- and land it on -random biome-, reward:-scaled money-" and that's all of the contracts and reputation system.

Yeah, a beautiful idea. What else do you want? DLC?

[Albert VDS]

PDCWolf, you've got a lot of frustration in your posts and I think most of that comes from you being ill informed about features.

It's like your points in your first post in this thread:

Resources were shelved because they weren't fun(by the dev's standards) in their working version.

Inside VAB information was never an announced feature. In the article, were you got your quote from, they talk about deciding if they wanted it or not and not about announcing it one time and scrapping it the next.

Procedural solar system were mention on last Kerbalcon. They said they won't add it(and never announced it as a feature) because they want the experience for every player to be the same. Their idea behind it is that sharing your mission experience is a lot more enjoyable/recognizable if you have the same solar system instead of some random one which others might not care about.

Work on Career mode only started in the previous update and it's hardly finished, so expect the upcoming updates to be mostly about career mode.

Multiplayer, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, will be added after they finish scope of the game and not in the next update.

[PDCWolf]

comes from you being ill informed about features.

Resources were shelved because they weren't fun(by the dev's standards) in their working version.

Yeah, because I'm the only one being ill informed and on top of that you are here to give official word. At least I guide myself on squadcasts, articles and dev blogs. And yes, I know why resources were shelved, and that has nothing to do with the thread.

Inside VAB information was never an announced feature. In the article, were you got your quote from, they talk about deciding if they wanted it or not and not about announcing it one time and scrapping it the next.

Your point being?

Procedural solar system were mention on last Kerbalcon. They said they won't add it(and never announced it as a feature) because they want the experience for every player to be the same.

They were also mentioned on older squadcasts and pre KSPTV ones too. They talked about seed sharing so that people could share their systems and such.

Their idea behind it is that sharing your mission experience is a lot more enjoyable/recognizable if you have the same solar system instead of some random one which others might not care about.

Now, take a look at space engine. There's billions of gallaxies and every time someone finds something cool, it gets instantly shared on the forums with instructions on how to find it, that leaves us with devs that are ignoring stuff happening in front of their noses saying people won't care about each other's solar systems and stuff like that.

Anyways, once more, this has nothing to do with this thread.

Work on Career mode only started in the previous update and it's hardly finished, so expect the upcoming updates to be mostly about career mode.

Multiplayer, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, will be added after they finish scope of the game and not in the next update.

You make it sound like the previous update was yesterday. Work on career mode started 7 months ago. Now it doesn't sound that good does it?. I mentioned multiplayer because it's -supposedly- coming, not because it is coming NOW.

[Dante80]

PDCWolf, have you thought about the fact that what you want the game to become may be different than what the developers of the game want? Or the fact that what the developers want the game to become is different from what they wanted a year ago?

[boxman]

Up until about 2 weeks ago, I was in the group that thought Squads decision to shelve resource mining was stupid. I then, for the first time ever, installed a mod, 2 in fact - KAS and Kethane.

I haven't done much with KAS, but there seems to be some really useful things in there.

Kethane on the other hand, I've done a bit already with it. What I found is it's not particularly useful. It basically gives you a way to refuel a ship on another planet, without setting up refueling stations. I was thinking I would set up a mining base, but in the end I just equipped a ship with a drill and converter and hopped between biomes on the Mun sucking out the science. As for scanning the Mun, I did it over night, which was inconvenient at minimum. I honestly couldn't be bothered scanning anywhere else, because why? There is no reason at all to do it.

In order for resource mining to be relevant at all, it needs to be for something you can't get otherwise, for example mining fuel for an interstellar drive to go to other stars.

As much as I love the idea of kethane i just dont think it has been implemented properly. The scanning for example is pretty tedious since you actually have to be focused on the probe which takes hours upon hours in real time. If it was done right in stock game, then you would not have any need to do this and it would most likely continue to scan even when the probe is not in focus.

And this is the issue with many mods.. Since the mod devs dont have access to source code of the game they have to do some hacks to get it working which leads to issues like this.

I also liked how the proposed resource system was not limited to just about mining fuel and all kinds of other resources. Imagine for example if you had a colony and had to mine certain resources just to keep your colonies alive.

I understand that resources are not for everyone though.

I completely understand that it is not for everyone though, which is why I think the career mode should be customizable so that people can play the game just the way they want.

[boxman]

@Albert VDS

Resources were shelved because they weren't fun(by the dev's standards) in their working version.

I have heard also different opinions on that. I wont mention any names, but one ex employer of squad said the exact opposite thing and he/she did not understand why resources was suddenly put on the back burner as it added so much to the game.

This was back when it was not officially dropped but according to this person he/she feared that this was the case which sadly now has turned out to be true.

This just shows again that people have different preferences. What I find fun someone else might find grindy or boring which is why you should be able to tweak the career mode to your own liking.

[PDCWolf]

PDCWolf, have you thought about the fact that what you want the game to become may be different than what the developers of the game want? Or the fact that what the developers want the game to become is different from what they wanted a year ago?

Have you thought about the fact that I base myself on squad words and that they flipped the entire dev roadmap upside down and backpedaled on their promises? They wanted the game to be something. Now they want it to be something different.

I'm not against them having a vision for the final game, I'm against them changing their vision midways to pull a Notch.

Edited December 29, 2013 by PDCWolf

[Sof]

Imagine for example if you had a colony and had to mine certain resources just to keep your colonies alive.

I understand that resources are not for everyone though.

That's the thing. Kerbal Space Program is about little green spacemen in a game. KSP is their version of NASA.

And while NASA is technically in the "business" of building colonies on other worlds, it isn't in the mining business.

Some mission ideas do have the requirement of refuelling on other planets, but they aren't going to go and strip mine Mars and sell the rocks.

IMO, colonies in KSP should simply require power and then have special bays like the science bay, but the kerbals grow food in them. Everything gets recycled, otherwise its going to be a nightmare tracking which colonies need to go out and "mine to stay alive".

Edited December 29, 2013 by Sof

[Albert VDS]

Yeah, because I'm the only one being ill informed and on top of that you are here to give official word. At least I guide myself on squadcasts, articles and dev blogs. And yes, I know why resources were shelved, and that has nothing to do with the thread.

You guide yourself on what you want and try to bend articles into hope that those features will be included in future updates.

Try to read the atricles as is, don't try to read between the lines where there is no official information to be found.

Your point being?

It has never been a planned feature so you can't blame Squad of canceling it.

They were also mentioned on older squadcasts and pre KSPTV ones too. They talked about seed sharing so that people could share their systems and such.

Please post links to those Squadcasts.

Now, take a look at space engine. There's billions of gallaxies and every time someone finds something cool, it gets instantly shared on the forums with instructions on how to find it, that leaves us with devs that are ignoring stuff happening in front of their noses saying people won't care about each other's solar systems and stuff like that.

Space engine isn't KSP. There's not a whole lot to Space Engine without randomly generated galaxies. KSP is still KSP without randomlly generated Solar Systems.

You make it sound like the previous update was yesterday. Work on career mode started 7 months ago. Now it doesn't sound that good does it?. I mentioned multiplayer because it's -supposedly- coming, not because it is coming NOW.

Do you even know what goes on in developing a game? A few month to deliver a stable game while adding new features takes time. Before you mention mods releasing faster than official feature: Mods don't have to work properly from the get go.

@boxman: Of course there might be people who like it and people who don't. But in the end it's Squads dessication to add it or not.

There's also nothing stopping the mod community on making a similar resources mod.

Have you thought about the fact that I base myself on squad words and that they flipped the entire dev roadmap upside down and backpedaled on their promises? They wanted the game to be something. Now they want it to be something different.

I'm not against them having a vision for the final game, I'm against them changing their vision midways to pull a Notch.

The only thing you can blame Squad of is giving too much information so that anyone can twist and turn it to their desire and blame it on Squad if their hopes aren't met.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Albert VDS

[PDCWolf]

You guide yourself on what you want and try to bend articles into hope that those features will be included in future updates.

Try to read the atricles as is, don't try to read between the lines where there is no official information to be found.

Such proof, wow.

It has never been a planned feature so you can't blame Squad of canceling it.

Could you please point me to the part where I blame squad?

Please post links to those Squadcasts.

Everything that existed before skunky was fired was deleted or just simply wasn't saved.

Space engine isn't KSP. There's not a whole lot to Space Engine without randomly generated galaxies. KSP is still KSP without randomlly generated Solar Systems.

Opinion.

Do you even know what goes on in developing a game? A few month to deliver a stable game while adding new features takes time. Before you mention mods releasing faster than official feature: Mods don't have to work properly from the get go.

An alpha doesn't have to work properly from the get go either. And not only that but the releases have some really visible bugs even with branched testing and experimentals. Makes many people doubt about the quality of the testers. At least now modders get experimentals (After squad got tired of experimentals being leaked to them and max pulled a string or two)

@boxman: Of course there might be people who like it and people who don't. But in the end it's Squads dessication to add it or not.

There's also nothing stopping the mod community on making a similar resources mod.

That is a really invalid argument cause the same could be said about multiplayer, spaceplanes or anything.

The only thing you can blame Squad of is giving too much information so that anyone can twist and turn it to their desire and blame it on Squad if their hopes aren't met.

Argument discarded.

[Liowen]

All game makers setup goals of how they would like a game to come, but as they are developing it things change. Sometimes it is a matter of time and money, other times it is simply a matter of a system not being feasible in its current form. As more things change in the game those ideas put on a shelf may come back into a more meaningful idea that would be a better suit to different player, since not everyone is YOU and likewise not ME (We all have different play styles). Now if in career mode you could select to have things like deadly reentry, need of a communications network, keep a balanced budget, do contracts, make people like, and so on, that will lead into a resource system most likely. Or would you rather have a resource system that is either mind numbingly boring, or at worse makes the game nearly unplayable, just so it is in? Doing the smaller ideas that, while to many might seem to be pointless, will help make the foundation to something bigger later down the road.

Personally I hope there will be a list of what a person wants to turn on or off in career mode to tune the game to their style of play, beyond just easy, normal, difficult, or micro management. I do things in game to have fun, not because I have to do them. Did I have to send a rover to Duna before landing there, no I did it because I wanted to do it without the game forcing me to do so. As I get better and want more of a challenge I can find mods that I need, unless there is something in game that will provide me the challenge I need, to up the level of difficulty as I see fit. When the game offers no more challenge even with mods I will make my own silly rules for doing things; like a vehicle that can land on all the planets and moons before coming back to Kerbin. Once that has been done I and there is nothing left, provided the developers have not updated more by the time I have gotten to that point, I would take a break from the game....without being overly dramatic. Sometimes if something is not fun you should step away for a few months, including the forums, and find something else to occupy your time without making long speeches as to why you are doing it.